TFC 2021 Season

[canuckgbp]

Many of the veterans have been disappointing to awful all year. Yet they keep getting rewarded with more starts and minutes. Hopefully what we saw last game is a switch for the team. Give young players who are hungry a chance to get real minutes. Now that Perez is locked in for the year hopefully he will look at his other options. 

Perez up until last game has seemed almost afraid to use his subs. Riding the veterans despite playing midweek games regardless of the form they were in. He must have felt that gave them the best chance to win. With the playoffs still within reach at that point I guess it made sense. But then things got desperate last game and he put a line in the sand. 

Now that the playoffs are basically a pipe dream, rotate the squad, see what young players step up to show that they deserve a place in next years squad. The veterans are what they are... most have lost a step or three.... 

PS- The lack of a real pathway for youngsters within TFC is sad to see. I could barely watch as Auro was starting as a CM while Priso was waiting in the wings.... Several of these American academy's are pumping out talent repeatedly. The young players on the fringes either need to be loaned out or be getting game time. Rotting on the pine or playing for TFC 2 isn't doing them much good. 

 

 

 

[Obinna]

On 8/9/2021 at 10:12 PM, toontownman said:

We have certainly seen the team America culture was not just him, despite overtures to the contrary the youth movement followed the players last game into the fog.

 I wasn't a fan of Vanney, still aren't but that's irrelevant imo. It's on the club hierarchy to replace him adequately. They needed better and got worse. I hope they take this season to find the right coach for next season. Perez isn't the answer but unless the hierarchy take a good hard look at themselves they might as well just stick with him.

There seems to be an anti-american undercurrent on this forum when it comes to toronto fc. It rubs me the wrong way because players and coaches tend to not get their due just because they are american.

I don't think there's a grand conspiracy to hold back young canadians. I just think Toronto are a big money club who struggle to find opportunities for their prospects.

There are other clubs in the league like them, but the difference is that American clubs will absorb American prospects more readily than Canadian prospects, since they count as internationals. That's a problem for us, but I don't blame Toronto for that. 

Also, to be fair Ali Curtis has obviously trying to transition the model of the club from big money to youth focus, but now the club seems to stuck in two minds without a clear identity.

If there is any blame on the club it's that. My two cents anyways...

[youllneverwalkalone]

[Ruffian]

Here are some numbers that paint a different picture than is portrayed in this thread.

Canadian club homegrown teenagers played this year

- Ralph Priso  (19) 506 minutes
- Jayden Nelson (18) 113 minutes
- Jahkeele Marshall-Rutty  (17) 35 minutes
- Kamron Habibullah (17) 30 minutes
- Rida Zouhir (17) 15 minutes

1. Toronto 654 minutes
2. Vancouver 30 minutes
3. Montreal 15 minutes

Canadian club homegrown U21 played this year

- Ralph Priso  (19) 506 minutes
- Luke Singh (20) 395 minutes
- Jayden Nelson (18) 113 minutes
- Jordan Peruzza (20) 64 minutes
- Jahkeele Marshall-Rutty  (17) 35 minutes
- Kamron Habibullah (17) 30 minutes
- Rida Zouhir (17) 15 minutes

1. Toronto 1113 minutes
2. Vancouver 30 minutes
3. Montreal 15 minutes

Canadian club U22 played this year

- Michael Baldisimo (21) 850 minutes
- Ayo Akinola (21) 649 minutes
- Ralph Priso  (19) 506 minutes
- Luke Singh (20) 395 minutes
- Jacob Shaffelburg (21) 299 minutes
- Noble Okello (21) 187 minutes
- Jayden Nelson (18) 113 minutes
- Jordan Peruzza (20) 64 minutes
- Jahkeele Marshall-Rutty  (17) 35 minutes
- Kamron Habibullah (17) 30 minutes
- Theo Bair (21) 27 minutes
- Rida Zouhir (17) 15 minutes

1. Toronto 2248 minutes
2. Vancouver 907 minutes
3. Montreal 15 minutes

Toronto 9 players
Vancouver 2 players
Montreal 2 players

 

Based on these numbers TFC are doing a much better job of playing their young players. Obviously you can look at it in many different ways by showing how many Canadian players Montreal sign and play and how Vancouver developed the best Canadian player and sold him for big money, but based on these numbers it is hard to say that TFC isn't trying to play their kids.

This is not saying I wouldn't prefer to see more young player play this year, because I hope they give up on the playoffs and just play youth and hope for some promising play from a young team.

Edit: Numbers taken from @Corazon's great work.

Edited August 12, 2021 by Ruffian

[narduch]

9 hours ago, Obinna said:

There seems to be an anti-american undercurrent on this forum when it comes to toronto fc. It rubs me the wrong way because players and coaches tend to not get their due just because they are american.

I don't think there's a grand conspiracy to hold back young canadians. I just think Toronto are a big money club who struggle to find opportunities for their prospects.

There are other clubs in the league like them, but the difference is that American clubs will absorb American prospects more readily than Canadian prospects, since they count as internationals. That's a problem for us, but I don't blame Toronto for that. 

Also, to be fair Ali Curtis has obviously trying to transition the model of the club from big money to youth focus, but now the club seems to stuck in two minds without a clear identity.

If there is any blame on the club it's that. My two cents anyways...

Omar Gonzalez says hi.

[costarg]

9 hours ago, Obinna said:

There seems to be an anti-american undercurrent on this forum when it comes to toronto fc. It rubs me the wrong way because players and coaches tend to not get their due just because they are american.

I don't think there's a grand conspiracy to hold back young canadians. I just think Toronto are a big money club who struggle to find opportunities for their prospects.

There are other clubs in the league like them, but the difference is that American clubs will absorb American prospects more readily than Canadian prospects, since they count as internationals. That's a problem for us, but I don't blame Toronto for that. 

Also, to be fair Ali Curtis has obviously trying to transition the model of the club from big money to youth focus, but now the club seems to stuck in two minds without a clear identity.

If there is any blame on the club it's that. My two cents anyways...

It can be seen that way, however, I feel it's more of an anti-old-washed-up-player who happens to be American taking minutes from young potential future stars or starters that happen to be Canadian. 

How valuable will Bradley, Altidore and Gonzo be next year?  How about the following year?  Whats the point in keeping them on the field and accumulating the losses?  Are you feeling good about next year?  Do you think this team has a chance to be successful sticking to this formula?  You can't replace MB, Altidore and Gonzo with DP's cause the DP slots are already filled, so who fills in those spots if not the kids?  You need to develop them now for next year, starting them next year is too late.

[costarg]

9 minutes ago, Ruffian said:

Here are some numbers that paint a different picture than is portrayed in this thread.

Canadian club homegrown teenagers played this year

- Ralph Priso  (19) 506 minutes
- Jayden Nelson (18) 113 minutes
- Jahkeele Marshall-Rutty  (17) 35 minutes
- Kamron Habibullah (17) 30 minutes
- Rida Zouhir (17) 15 minutes

1. Toronto 654 minutes
2. Vancouver 30 minutes
3. Montreal 15 minutes

Canadian club homegrown U21 played this year

- Ralph Priso  (19) 506 minutes
- Luke Singh (20) 395 minutes
- Jayden Nelson (18) 113 minutes
- Jordan Peruzza (20) 64 minutes
- Jahkeele Marshall-Rutty  (17) 35 minutes
- Kamron Habibullah (17) 30 minutes
- Rida Zouhir (17) 15 minutes

1. Toronto 1113 minutes
2. Vancouver 30 minutes
3. Montreal 15 minutes

Canadian club U22 played this year

- Michael Baldisimo (21) 850 minutes
- Ayo Akinola (21) 649 minutes
- Ralph Priso  (19) 506 minutes
- Luke Singh (20) 395 minutes
- Jacob Shaffelburg (21) 299 minutes
- Noble Okello (21) 187 minutes
- Jayden Nelson (18) 113 minutes
- Jordan Peruzza (20) 64 minutes
- Jahkeele Marshall-Rutty  (17) 35 minutes
- Kamron Habibullah (17) 30 minutes
- Theo Bair (21) 27 minutes
- Rida Zouhir (17) 15 minutes

1. Toronto 2248 minutes
2. Vancouver 907 minutes
3. Montreal 15 minutes

Toronto 9 players
Vancouver 2 players
Montreal 2 players

 

Based on these numbers TFC are doing a much better job of playing their young players. Obviously you can look at it in many different ways by showing how many Canadian players Montreal sign and play and how Vancouver developed the best Canadian player and sold him for big money, but based on these numbers it is hard to say that TFC isn't trying to play their kids.

This is not saying I wouldn't prefer to see more young player play this year, because I hope they give up on the playoffs and just play youth and hope for some promising play from a young team.

OK, but you're kinda conventiently filtering some data out.  Do the same exercise and include all Canadians 22 and under (removing homegrown filter) and your entire point falls apart.  I'll make it easy for you: 2711 minutes between Choiniere, ZBG, Bassong & Bahiya.

[Obinna]

11 minutes ago, narduch said:

Omar Gonzalez says hi.

Hi Omar. 

12 minutes ago, costarg said:

It can be seen that way, however, I feel it's more of an anti-old-washed-up-player who happens to be American taking minutes from young potential future stars or starters that happen to be Canadian. 

How valuable will Bradley, Altidore and Gonzo be next year?  How about the following year?  Whats the point in keeping them on the field and accumulating the losses?  Are you feeling good about next year?  Do you think this team has a chance to be successful sticking to this formula?  You can't replace MB, Altidore and Gonzo with DP's cause the DP slots are already filled, so who fills in those spots if not the kids?  You need to develop them now for next year, starting them next year is too late.

Agreed?

I mean, I am not saying these American players aren't past it. They clearly are. They are on hefty contracts. The club hasn't managed the situation as well as they could have. Bradley on TAM is barely reasonable, but Omar on TAM and Altidore on a DP is pretty ridiculous. They are bad contracts, plain and simple.

Omar I understand, because when he joined from Mexico he was a TAM level player. It's unfortunate the club isn't getting more from him at this stage of his contract, but he must be near the end of it very soon. Altidore on the other hand clearly had injury problems and for that reason a fresh DP contract seemed like a bad move. 

But yeah, I am assuming you misunderstood what my post was about considering your response. 

[Ruffian]

2 minutes ago, costarg said:

OK, but you're kinda conventiently filtering some data out.  Do the same exercise and include all Canadians 22 and under (removing homegrown filter) and your entire point falls apart.  I'll make it easy for you: 2711 minutes between Choiniere, ZBG, Bassong & Bahiya.

Ye, like I said, it can be looked at many different ways. ZBG and Bassong are not homegrown and a lot of the criticism is that TFC are being singled out for not playing their academy guys while obviously they are playing them more than other Canadian MLS teams. Playing the younger guys is something that is usually more difficult for a team and TFC are playing much younger Canadian players than the other Canadian MLS teams.

I am not saying TFC are doing better than Montreal or Vancouver I am just pointing out they are at least at minimum doing as well.

[canuckgbp]

Seems with the Canadian MLS teams it is a low bar. I know Canadian MLS teams are in a unique position within MLS and have different rules and challenges with the border and who is and isn't domestic. It is just frustrating that TFC don't appear to have a pathway like some of the American teams. Big scouting area and on paper a great academy setup. 

Players need to impress and take any chance they get though. Seems Priso is right on track for that. I thought Singh has shown ok (except at left back. Where are the academy fullbacks? aha) and just needs more consistent playing time. Do we really need to see Omar play 3 games in 7 days? I know Romeo is on loan (his passing has looked great) but Dunn can't get a look? 

Hopefully for the rest of this season we see which young players can step up and show they deserve real minutes next year. If not move them on or loan them out to get better game time than TFC 2 can offer. Rotting on the pine or playing USL L1 doesn't seem to be the best course of action. 

 

[youllneverwalkalone]

One of the things that has changed for me in this debate is a recent conclusion that an MLS minute is much more valuable than it used to be. I think I was bit stuck in 2011 when Tommy Soehn loaded up the Caps with American journeymen. My own relationship with the club never really recovered. There's not a lot of comparison between Gonzalez, Bradley, Altidore and Wes Knight, Greg Janicki, and Jay Nolly. The former are or were top footballers who can teach (and have I think) the youngins. Russell Teibert never really grew into much from those early minutes, but I think it will be different this time for Priso, Baldi, Choiniere, etc. And to be fair, Russ is probably national team level for much of CONCACAF -hopefully just not for us anymore.

[Gian-Luca]

11 hours ago, Obinna said:

There seems to be an anti-american undercurrent on this forum when it comes to toronto fc. It rubs me the wrong way because players and coaches tend to not get their due just because they are american.

I don't think there's a grand conspiracy to hold back young canadians. I just think Toronto are a big money club who struggle to find opportunities for their prospects.

There are other clubs in the league like them, but the difference is that American clubs will absorb American prospects more readily than Canadian prospects, since they count as internationals. That's a problem for us, but I don't blame Toronto for that. 

Also, to be fair Ali Curtis has obviously trying to transition the model of the club from big money to youth focus, but now the club seems to stuck in two minds without a clear identity.

If there is any blame on the club it's that. My two cents anyways...

To be fair, the team is in last place in the entire league with one of the highest payrolls in the league. The four teams who are one point ahead of them all have games in hand on TFC as well. If we look at where most of that salary is going with respect to foreign players, the underperforming talent is not the likes of Soteldo & Pozeulo but Altidore, Bradley & Slomar. One might add Delgado who has been up and down this year after signing a big contract extension.  The one exception to this is Mavinga who has also been poor but he's literally an exception to all the Americans). So with American in charge seemingly over-rating or over-paying American players (and signing the likes of Dom Dwyer to boot), you can understand why there is so much criticism. In my case at least, though I am sure it's the same for others, this isn't because of a national team rivalry or anti-Americanism per se, but rather than the Americans in charge are helping to screw things up by signing & continually playing overrated & underperforming Americans, who, other than Mavinga, are the main cause of the teams woes. Perez - who has worked in and with US soccer for years - finally yanking Bradley & Altidore off the field is the first sign of hope in this regard that we're going to see a meritorious changing of the guard and one where veterans are continuing to be played due to past glories rather than current form. I do wonder if he'll be "bold" enough to start Priso ahead of Bradley against NE.

[Obinna]

31 minutes ago, Gian-Luca said:

To be fair, the team is in last place in the entire league with one of the highest payrolls in the league. The four teams who are one point ahead of them all have games in hand on TFC as well. If we look at where most of that salary is going with respect to foreign players, the underperforming talent is not the likes of Soteldo & Pozeulo but Altidore, Bradley & Slomar. One might add Delgado who has been up and down this year after signing a big contract extension.  The one exception to this is Mavinga who has also been poor but he's literally an exception to all the Americans). So with American in charge seemingly over-rating or over-paying American players (and signing the likes of Dom Dwyer to boot), you can understand why there is so much criticism. In my case at least, though I am sure it's the same for others, this isn't because of a national team rivalry or anti-Americanism per se, but rather than the Americans in charge are helping to screw things up by signing & continually playing overrated & underperforming Americans, who, other than Mavinga, are the main cause of the teams woes. Perez - who has worked in and with US soccer for years - finally yanking Bradley & Altidore off the field is the first sign of hope in this regard that we're going to see a meritorious changing of the guard and one where veterans are continuing to be played due to past glories rather than current form. I do wonder if he'll be "bold" enough to start Priso ahead of Bradley against NE.

I think the rest of your analysis is fair, but for context I should clarify that what I perceive to be Anti-Americanism has been going on before this season.

For years, players like Delgado and Zavaleta have been easy targets because they are American. Both of these players have their limitations, both are arguably overpaid, but they've also been part of the clubs biggest moments. I am not even fans of these players, but I always feel compelled to run to their defense when others are being unnecessarily harsh on them. Maybe I am wrong and it has nothing to do with their passports, because people have also cried nepotism in the case of Zavaleta and accused Vanney of playing favorites with Delgado because of their long history together. 

To the point about it not being about being American, Endo gets hated on because he is blocking the path of Canadian players. He is not American either. Maybe the rub for people is that Canadians should be getting those looks, which is more than fair because we are Canadian supporters. That doesn't mean Endo is a terrible player however, though he is treated as such around here. He's been relatively useful, but that seems to get ignored in our insistence a Canadian takes his place.

Even that I understand...

But regardless, there have been very few Canadians who've taken their chance. Priso is one. Schaffelburg is arguably another. Nelson hasn't yet (a shame because I think his ceiling is very high). Okello definitely hasn't. Dunn hasn't found a way back in, etc. 

To me it seems like a fantasy that some of these guys are just being held back just because. I mean, once the season is a lost cause (fast approaching) there is no harm to play these kids and give them reps, but as long as the club feels there's a chance it's the responsibility for these young players to convince the coaching staff they are what the team needs, it's not the other way around.

Edited August 12, 2021 by Obinna

[BearcatSA]

34 minutes ago, Gian-Luca said:

One might add Delgado who has been up and down this year after signing a big contract extension. 

I haven't watched TFC much in the Covid era but I have to say that when I have seen Delgado I still see the same weaknesses in his game from 4-5 years ago, namely protecting possession.  His place should be ripe for the picking because his ceiling is covered by the same glass used on the Popemobile. 

Mavinga's play has been quite disappointing. 

Edited August 12, 2021 by BearcatSA

[Ruffian]

I hope they can:

- Sell Altidore and get some $
- Trade Delgado for TAM/GAM because he will have a lot of value in this league
- Potentially trade Mavinga, unless he is playing for a championship I feel he won't try his hardest

This would open up space for young Canadians to play.

[El Hombre]

1 hour ago, Obinna said:

To me it seems like a fantasy that some of these guys are just being held back just because. I mean, once the season is a lost cause (fast approaching) there is no harm to play these kids and give them reps, but as long as the club feels there's a chance it's the responsibility for these young players to convince the coaching staff they are what the team needs, it's not the other way around.

I don't disagree with a lot of what you said.  However, I do think there is plenty of blame to go around.

I have absolutely nothing to base this on, but I get the feeling some Canadian kids get a little too comfortable and a little too complacent on TFC.  You are absolutely right that they need to convince the coaching staff that they deserve the playing time.  I said as much about Okello when he went down to TFC II and looked ordinary.

However, on the flip side of that, you hope to see some sort of plan from the coaching staff, and I haven't really seen that.  As Gian-Luca said, overrating certain players doesn't really give the impression that there is a grand plan beyond the next 90 minutes.  For example, Perruzza is a talent but was recalled from San Antonio to sit on the bench for four games before getting 19 minutes in the fifth (which was a lost cause).  When you see stuff like that paired with Dwyer's 3 starts and a sub appearance over those same four games, it should make you ask: "What's the plan?"  Is the future really this 31 year old or the one who is 11 years younger?  Even Mullins had more time on the pitch than Perruzza during that stretch.  The point isn't to gift certain players playing time, but to actually test them.  And if they fail, move on and bring in someone else.  Maybe then there would be less complacency.

Also, I just learned about Hanlon's razor recently and this probably applies to TFC management.  It's not that I think they're deliberately holding back Canadians.  It's just that they're clueless.  Dynasties find a way to balance all star performers with young guns to keep the talent factory moving.  The fact that they haven't been able to do this is why they are such a yo-yo team: first in 2017, ninth in 2018, fourth in 2019, last in 2021 (2020 was a weird year).  A proper plan would even those results out and probably quiet some of the criticism around here.

Edited August 12, 2021 by El Hombre

[Obinna]

6 minutes ago, El Hombre said:

I don't disagree with a lot of what you said.  However, I do think there is plenty of blame to go around.

I have absolutely nothing to base this on, but I get the feeling some Canadian kids get a little too comfortable and a little too complacent on TFC.  You are absolutely right that they need to convince the coaching staff that they deserve the playing time.  I said as much about Okello when he went down to TFC II and looked ordinary.

However, on the flip side of that, you hope to see some sort of plan from the coaching staff, and I haven't really seen that.  As Gian-Luca said, overrating certain players doesn't really give the impression that there is a grand plan beyond the next 90 minutes.  For example, Perruzza is a talent but was recalled from San Antonio to sit on the bench for four games before getting 19 minutes in the fifth (which was a lost cause).  When you see stuff like that paired with Dwyer's 3 starts and a sub appearance over those same four games, it should make you ask: "What's the plan?"  Is the future really this 31 year old or the one who is 11 years younger?  Even Mullins had more time on the pitch than Perruzza during that stretch.  The point isn't to gift certain players playing time, but to actually test them.  And if they fail, move on and bring in someone else.  Maybe then there would be less complacency.

Also, I just learned about Hanlon's razor recently and this probably applies to TFC management.  It's not that I think they're deliberately holding back Canadians.  It's just that they're clueless.  Dynasties find a way to balance all star performers with young guns to keep the talent factory moving.  The fact that they haven't been able to do this is why they are such a yo-yo team: first in 2017, ninth in 2018, fourth in 2019, last in 2021 (2020 was a weird year).  A proper plan would even those results out and probably quiet some of the criticism around here.

Agree with everything you said, but quick comment on Dwyer: The club brought him in probably with the hope they could revive his career. With that context it is easy to see why they gave him 3 starts and a sub in that stretch. 

That doesn't explain why they recalled Perruzza from loan however. I can't speak for them, I can only guess. Maybe they felt he's earned a sport on the bench? For all they know games may unfold in a way he can be used, but he can't be used down in San Antonio, right?

[Trois Reds]

2 hours ago, Obinna said:

Agree with everything you said, but quick comment on Dwyer: The club brought him in probably with the hope they could revive his career. With that context it is easy to see why they gave him 3 starts and a sub in that stretch. 

That doesn't explain why they recalled Perruzza from loan however. I can't speak for them, I can only guess. Maybe they felt he's earned a sport on the bench? For all they know games may unfold in a way he can be used, but he can't be used down in San Antonio, right?

Sadly, TFC signed Dwyer until 2022.  Next year's money already spent.  At age 31, his career better revive quickly for TFC's sake.

[Bison44]

17 minutes ago, Trois Reds said:

Sadly, TFC signed Dwyer until 2022.  Next year's money already spent.  At age 31, his career better revive quickly for TFC's sake.

How can you take a flyer on reviving a guys career with a 2 year contract???  It better be a league minimum because so far he has made Mullins look like an all star.  

[Obinna]

14 minutes ago, Bison44 said:

How can you take a flyer on reviving a guys career with a 2 year contract???  It better be a league minimum because so far he has made Mullins look like an all star.  

If you think you can revive a guys career, you don't want to give him a platform for a single year only for another club to come in and sign him. If you think you can revive a guys career a 2 year contract makes sense in theory.

Not saying it was a good call for Dwyer specifically. So far he's been very poor.

[canuckgbp]

Perez still has stones. Priso starting, Bradley on the Bench. Jozy not in the team, think they said last broadcast he may have gotten injured? Not 100% sure on that though.

[Club Linesman]

Wow does Perez have balls?

Bradley on the bench and no Jozy.

[Club Linesman]

Silver lining. Buchanan scores the opener with an impressive header after TFC is bossing the play for the opening 20 minutes.  Happy for the man but TFC needs to get some wins.  Maybe 4-3 with a Tajon Hattie.

[baulderdash77]

It always drives me nuts to see Mullins or Deleon come on.  Journeymen MLS players who produce very little and don’t even play exciting football.  So uninspiring when we’re chasing a 1 goal deficit.

[Gian-Luca]

Well let's hope Zavaleta continues to play this atrociously for El Salvador in a few weeks time when he's back at BMO Field.