Juvy Kooner

[Dominic94]

33 minutes ago, TOcanadafan said:

Not sure why reports of hazing in elite youth sports (that may involve sexual assault) so often brings a reaction from some that is similar to “most 16 yr olds are pretty stupid”.  Too big of an issue to get into in this thread but I think it should be called out -it’s the only way this toxic culture can be changed. “Normal” 16 year olds don’t do stuff like this guy has been accused (and released from a pro club) of doing. 

I don’t think you’ve been around elite sports enough to know that this is sadly the norm. It’s a widespread issue.

[Aird25]

I don’t know anything about this event but I feel like I’ve done this kid a disservice by posting here. In a way I wish I could delete the thread and start anew 

[Dominic94]

1 hour ago, Aird25 said:

I don’t know anything about this event but I feel like I’ve done this kid a disservice by posting here. In a way I wish I could delete the thread and start anew 

It wasn’t you though. The minute he was signed It was coming.

 

on Twitter glasscityfc pretty much called out WFC for missing him and it came out that the kid was released due to his behaviour. It’s one of those things that follow you everywhere, he will have to put his head down and work hard.

[Bison44]

1 hour ago, Aird25 said:

I don’t know anything about this event but I feel like I’ve done this kid a disservice by posting here. In a way I wish I could delete the thread and start anew 

It was bound to come up, but who cares?  Good for the kid to keep working and getting into a new enviroment and succeeding.  All he can do is keep his nose clean and move on eh?  Same as anyone else who has had screw ups.  If we wrote off everyone who stepped in it when they were 16, there wouldnt be many of us around.  

[nolando]

Somebody mentioned wanting to know more about Lank FC and the connection to Toronto, the Caribbean, etc.

I dug up this Facebook post, which helps to explain some of the steps that helped get Juvy to Portugal: 

[Aird25]

1 hour ago, Dominic94 said:

It wasn’t you though. The minute he was signed It was coming.

 

on Twitter glasscityfc pretty much called out WFC for missing him and it came out that the kid was released due to his behaviour. It’s one of those things that follow you everywhere, he will have to put his head down and work hard.

Didn’t Rollins call the Whitecaps out for missing him and Glasscity provided the details?

Regardless, I’d hate to have the first couple pages of my career read like this but I suppose his actions might deserve it. I have no way of knowing 

[Dominic94]

2 hours ago, Aird25 said:

Didn’t Rollins call the Whitecaps out for missing him and Glasscity provided the details?

Regardless, I’d hate to have the first couple pages of my career read like this but I suppose his actions might deserve it. I have no way of knowing 

Something like both of them, it’s a big deal this a big club and it’s a bad look that the caps had apparently missed him.

 

listen I agree with your take, and I do believe in second chances. As someone who’s been through the mud, no one deserves that. We all make mistakes and the intent behind it says a lot, he was likely a kid trying to fit in and who was shown that way by someone else. I’m not saying it’s ok but let’s give him the benefit of the doubt.

we live in exciting times, CDN’s are now good enough to make it to the academy of Portuguese teams, maybe we might make a word cup after all hehe.

[Unnamed Trialist]

16 hours ago, El Diego said:

Why do we think in a situation like this that a player has "slipped through the cracks"? I mean, isn't it possible that clubs were looking at him but that he chose to sign in Europe? Jonathan David did not "slip through the cracks", for example.

In Canada there are a lot of cracks to slip through. 

Hey, look at how many players from top nations don't emerge until they leave and are rediscovered playing somewhere else. 

I am pleased for the kid. I also notice in that Lank video, when asked about his personal history, he does not specifically mention the name Whitecaps. Regardless, if Whitecaps academy groups were in authentically competitive leagues they would be more careful with their assets. In a truly competitive country a player who gets kicked out for a behaviour problem is back playing against you within a couple of weeks. 

[archer21]

This is the last situation people should be using to show that Canadian soccer is not yet where it needs to be. If he were cut because the coaches thought he wasn’t good enough, and there were not other options in Canada for him to play for, then yeah the argument could be made. But he was kicked off for behavioural issues. He didn’t slip through the cracks, he was intentionally discarded. 
 

P.S. I believe he deserves a second chance, I just don’t like that we’re using this as an example of Canada soccer failing. 

[SoccMan]

6 hours ago, Dominic94 said:

Something like both of them, it’s a big deal this a big club and it’s a bad look that the caps had apparently missed him.

 

listen I agree with your take, and I do believe in second chances. As someone who’s been through the mud, no one deserves that. We all make mistakes and the intent behind it says a lot, he was likely a kid trying to fit in and who was shown that way by someone else. I’m not saying it’s ok but let’s give him the benefit of the doubt.

we live in exciting times, CDN’s are now good enough to make it to the academy of Portuguese teams, maybe we might make a word cup after all hehe.

Ok yes I believe in second chances, but it looks like the reason they let him go had nothing to do with his capabilities as a soccer player at the time end of story. I don’t care if he was the second coming of Messi, your gone. So it doesn’t look like in this case the Caps missed him.

[Unnamed Trialist]

18 minutes ago, SoccMan said:

Ok yes I believe in second chances, but it looks like the reason they let him go had nothing to do with his capabilities as a soccer player at the time end of story. I don’t care if he was the second coming of Messi, your gone. So it doesn’t look like in this case the Caps missed him.

Any academy player anywhere in the world, cut for behavioural issues, has a dozen other opportunities at a regional level and one of those clubs will pick him up. Because there will always be a club who values you as a player and thinks they can do a better job with you as a person. A club that believes you when you say you recognise your mistake and want to move forward.

The problem is that Whitecaps get to dictate a no-second chance policy for a 15-year old, only because they have zero local competition at that level. And because their psychological support structure is weak, so weak they've been denounced internationally for consenting a culture of sexual harrassment by coaches towards players.

Great, the Whitecaps get to be the single gateway in BC for a talent who made a mistake at age 15. And then you look and see how BC is dropping dramatically as a source for Canadian soccer talent.

Getting all righteous about this just proves that our system is still screwed. And a lot of our fan mentality too.

[The Real Marc]

One certainly can't disagree on the critique of the Whitecaps inconsistency and poor record in this regard, absolutely.  But to lump hazing, which is the harassment of other individuals, into a "behavioural issues", which can be everything from poor diet to being chronically late, from problems with authority to anger management, is a false equivalency. The Caps had no choice but to let him go if it was hazing. It's not righteous, it's just being realistic about how they have to operate in this day and age - whether there are regional clubs to clean up the scraps or not.

[SoccMan]

8 minutes ago, The Real Marc said:

One certainly can't disagree on the critique of the Whitecaps inconsistency and poor record in this regard, absolutely.  But to lump hazing, which is the harassment of other individuals, into a "behavioural issues", which can be everything from poor diet to being chronically late, from problems with authority to anger management, is a false equivalency. The Caps had no choice but to let him go if it was hazing. It's not righteous, it's just being realistic about how they have to operate in this day and age - whether there are regional clubs to clean up the scraps or not.

Thank You!

[BearcatSA]

I wonder how the player who was hazed has done since the incident?  I hope that individual has been able to move on with life as best possible.  I also hope the boys who who were dismissed have achieved a succesful restitution in the end. 

 

[Unnamed Trialist]

48 minutes ago, The Real Marc said:

One certainly can't disagree on the critique of the Whitecaps inconsistency and poor record in this regard, absolutely.  But to lump hazing, which is the harassment of other individuals, into a "behavioural issues", which can be everything from poor diet to being chronically late, from problems with authority to anger management, is a false equivalency. The Caps had no choice but to let him go if it was hazing. It's not righteous, it's just being realistic about how they have to operate in this day and age - whether there are regional clubs to clean up the scraps or not.

 I agree, but only in principle. If there was hazing when Juvy was just starting out, and had spent little time there, it was because there was a culture of hazing. We have already heard he was let go with some other players. 

The real point is that Whitecaps is a monopoly, and you are being harsh. No second chances for a fifteen year old is harsh, and yes, righteous. Your post shows how good you feel about it. You don't even know the extent, if it was denounced, if it was consensual, nothing. But you are on a very high horse.

I grew up in the 70s in Vancouver, and was at the edge of being kicked out of school a few times for behaviour that would be considered no second chance; so were many classmates. All it would have meant was going to another public school nearby, getting your high school diploma and going on with your life in basically the same way. And that is how soccer works where there is proper competition, like in Southern Ontario. 

Yes, I am saying that teen hazers who are good players get second even third chances in Newcastle, Lyon, Istanbul, Buenos Aires and Southern Ontario. But not in BC. In BC we need to make soccer culture safe for second chances. And that includes girls who would like to train at a quality academy without being harrassed by adult male coaches

 

Edited December 30, 2020 by Unnamed Trialist

[nolando]

1 hour ago, BearcatSA said:

I wonder how the player who was hazed has done since the incident?  I hope that individual has been able to move on with life as best possible.  I also hope the boys who who were dismissed have achieved a succesful restitution in the end. 

 

I think there is a good chance that we are still discussing both of the other players involved, for soccer reasons, on this board.

[SpursFlu]

Boring.. just let it go. Leave him and the Whitecaps alone. Good luck to the kid.. perhaps a Fraser Valley CPL team could be his landing point at some point 

[Macksam]

11 hours ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

 I agree, but only in principle. If there was hazing when Juvy was just starting out, and had spent little time there, it was because there was a culture of hazing. We have already heard he was let go with some other players. 

The real point is that Whitecaps is a monopoly, and you are being harsh. No second chances for a fifteen year old is harsh, and yes, righteous. Your post shows how good you feel about it. You don't even know the extent, if it was denounced, if it was consensual, nothing. But you are on a very high horse.

I grew up in the 70s in Vancouver, and was at the edge of being kicked out of school a few times for behaviour that would be considered no second chance; so were many classmates. All it would have meant was going to another public school nearby, getting your high school diploma and going on with your life in basically the same way. And that is how soccer works where there is proper competition, like in Southern Ontario. 

Yes, I am saying that teen hazers who are good players get second even third chances in Newcastle, Lyon, Istanbul, Buenos Aires and Southern Ontario. But not in BC. In BC we need to make soccer culture safe for second chances. And that includes girls who would like to train at a quality academy without being harrassed by adult male coaches

 

If not in BC, how did this kid get his second chance?

[El Hombre]

On 12/30/2020 at 10:59 AM, Unnamed Trialist said:

Any academy player anywhere in the world, cut for behavioural issues, has a dozen other opportunities at a regional level and one of those clubs will pick him up. Because there will always be a club who values you as a player and thinks they can do a better job with you as a person. A club that believes you when you say you recognise your mistake and want to move forward.

The problem is that Whitecaps get to dictate a no-second chance policy for a 15-year old, only because they have zero local competition at that level. And because their psychological support structure is weak, so weak they've been denounced internationally for consenting a culture of sexual harrassment by coaches towards players.

Great, the Whitecaps get to be the single gateway in BC for a talent who made a mistake at age 15. And then you look and see how BC is dropping dramatically as a source for Canadian soccer talent.

Getting all righteous about this just proves that our system is still screwed. And a lot of our fan mentality too.

I'm trying to understand what your point is.  You seem to be railing against the Whitecaps for some reason, but I think you're angrier at geography.

I think the fact that this kid did get a second chance (signing for Braga) means that you are overstating the power the Whitecaps have as the gatekeeper for all talent in BC.

Further to that, by the Whitecaps kicking him to the street, that means that he has exactly one less option as a pathway to the pros than other kids his age.  While the Whitecaps may have been the "easiest" due to proximity for him, I don't think they are the single gateway that you contend.  For example, Liam Fraser didn't like the Whitecaps academy so he went to TFC.  Teibert did the same in the opposite direction.   Zoom Langwa spent time at TFC before moving to Vancouver.  Duwayne Ewart spent time with the Whitecaps before moving on at the age of 16.

If the Whitecaps want to make decisions like this, more power to them.  If kids like this screw up when they're younger, then they have to work a little bit harder to make it.

[Unnamed Trialist]

48 minutes ago, El Hombre said:

I'm trying to understand what your point is.  You seem to be railing against the Whitecaps for some reason, but I think you're angrier at geography.

I think the fact that this kid did get a second chance (signing for Braga) means that you are overstating the power the Whitecaps have as the gatekeeper for all talent in BC.

Further to that, by the Whitecaps kicking him to the street, that means that he has exactly one less option as a pathway to the pros than other kids his age.  While the Whitecaps may have been the "easiest" due to proximity for him, I don't think they are the single gateway that you contend.  For example, Liam Fraser didn't like the Whitecaps academy so he went to TFC.  Teibert did the same in the opposite direction.   Zoom Langwa spent time at TFC before moving to Vancouver.  Duwayne Ewart spent time with the Whitecaps before moving on at the age of 16.

If the Whitecaps want to make decisions like this, more power to them.  If kids like this screw up when they're younger, then they have to work a little bit harder to make it.

Now we know why the BC population and salmon stocks are falling so rapidly. If you hit a roadbump in your teens or a landslide on the Fraser you have to leave.

[El Diego]

I think his point is simply that there should be more opportunities for soccer players at high levels in BC, so if you leave a team for any reason (kicked off for behavioural problems, predatory coaches, cut due to bad scouting, etc.) you have somewhere to play and develop locally.

Sounds like a fair enough point, I don't know enough about the BC soccer landscape. But the fact that he is using a guy who left his team after sexually assaulting a team mate (allegedly, sure) and subsequently landed with one of the biggest clubs in Portugal to make this point is making it hard to sympathize with the argument.

[Aird25]

33 minutes ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

Now we know why the BC population and salmon stocks are falling so rapidly. If you hit a roadbump in your teens or a landslide on the Fraser you have to leave.

 

[Bison44]

I think UT is talking about the 3rd quarter population decline in BC....a strange temporary pandemic driven occurance that hasnt happened since the 50's.  

[Watchmen]

On 12/30/2020 at 10:29 AM, nolando said:

I think there is a good chance that we are still discussing both of the other players involved, for soccer reasons, on this board.

I have heard (and granted it was 2nd hand) that the player on the receiving end of the hazing walked away from soccer and wants nothing more to do with it, and that his family relocated because of the incident.

[Watchmen]

On 12/30/2020 at 9:04 AM, Unnamed Trialist said:

The real point is that Whitecaps is a monopoly, and you are being harsh. No second chances for a fifteen year old is harsh, and yes, righteous. Your post shows how good you feel about it. You don't even know the extent, if it was denounced, if it was consensual, nothing. But you are on a very high horse.

I have heard (and to be clear, this is 2nd hand) that the extent was "very bad" and it was "very definitely not consensual".