Center Backs - Our Weakest Link

[costarg]

First topic I create! 

I figured it was enough with the bull**** and time to get to the heart of the matter.  We've beaten enough dead horses with the "where do we play Davies", "will Hutch still suit up", "will David graduate from Ligue1".  We're attracting players we never had a hope in hell with in the past.  We're showing real promise, and no one in CONCACAF wants to draw us.  We've got the talent and the depth almost everywhere on the field except for two spots.  

This is what will make it or break it for CANMNT the next 4-6 years.  Its the only thing that matters right now, our lack of solid, experienced, stable, and skilled center backs that are playing regularly in a competitive league. 

We've seen the "promised one" (Henry), the "maybe he'll pick us" ones (Tomori, Ferreira.....), the "if he just gets some playing time" ones (Miller, James...)  the "can we still trust him" ones (Edgar, Jakovic....), the "maybe he'll be the one" (Amuz, Hakkinen....) and the "can we turn him into a CB" (Hutch, Fraser.....)

Not one of these options is a definite and unconditional starter for CANMNT today.  That being said, what are our options?

Based on Transfermarkt:

Cornelius - 22 - 550K - High ceiling, but has he attained it? 
Henry - 27 - 800K - Probably our best on a good day, perhaps our worst on a bad day.  You just never know.
Vitoria - 33 - 200K - Is he really that slow?
Jakovich - 35 - 200K - Getting regular minutes on a good team, but you know...
James - 27 - 300K - No one seems to agree on this one
Miller - 23 - 400K - Major potential
Hakkinen - 21- 100K - 
Amuz - 23 - 100K

Who above gives us the best mix of stay home D-man, distributor, quickness, size & not a card magnet?

Should we go with 3-man D to help with the weakness?

Personally, I felt this would be Miller's break out year.  Just like Laryea, the man has to get out of Orlando.  He showed lots of poise and maturity, seems a natural for CB.

Edited October 1, 2020 by costarg

[SpecialK]

Your missing a few players. Scott Kennedy is one. Dunn, Romeo , Zator, Gasparotto, MacNaughton, Meilleur-Giguère, Edgar, Didic, Straith, Montgomery,Hainault

Edited October 1, 2020 by SpecialK

[CanadaFan123]

Sure, it’s our weakest spot. But are we really THAT weak at CB? If you look around CONCACAF we seem to be behind the big 3 but our options are just as good, if not better, than any other rival in the region.

Now if we’re talking about comparing ourselves to the top of CONCACAF sure we’re weak there. Whereas we compare favourably in just about every other area of the field.

I’d actually say that though our CB options are weak, they’re more promising than in the last decade. We’re talking about guys starting in Korea, Portugal, MLS ... it’s not like we’re picking USL players anymore. 

Edited October 1, 2020 by CanadaFan123

[dyslexic nam]

The problem with 3 CBs is that we load our team up with comparatively weaker players - and we already have issues trying to get all of our high quality mids on the field.  Sacrificing someone like Oso, Arfield, Eustaquio or Hutch (in a mid role) for a CB that is clearly not at the same calibre seems like we are making our team weaker not stronger.  

[costarg]

2 minutes ago, SpecialK said:

Your missing a few players. Scott Kennedy is one. Dunn, Romeo , Zator, Gasparotto

 Yes absolutely!  I just stopped listing all the options.  However, personally, I doubt a CPL player will "fit in" at the World Cup by 2022. 

I was hoping Waterman would break into the MLS for the Impact, but there still seems to be a gap between the leagues.  Not sure CPL is there just yet. 

[SthMelbRed]

Right now, our big hope is that Kennedy handles the step up to Bundesliga 2 level, establishes himself as an everyday starter with his club, and is ready to give us a strong option at CB for Canada.

[SpecialK]

I can Kennedy for sure being a option for us. When comes to CPL, I think it all depends what happens with the U23 team and who gets loans/sold off. Like Zator I can see moving to on to bigger clubs and Dunn is a young and very talented. 

[costarg]

3 minutes ago, CanadaFan123 said:

Sure, it’s our weakest spot. But are we really THAT weak at CB? If you look around CONCACAF we seem to be behind the big 3 but our options are just as good, if not better, than any rival in the region.

Now if we’re talking about comparing ourselves to the top of CONCACAF sure we’re weak there. Whereas we compare favourably in just about every other area of the field.

Thing is, being weak at CB or even moderately weak at CB is a huge gaping hole that ANY quick and physical team can take advantage of.  Given the option, I'd rather play with no real #9 any day of the week.

[SpecialK]

Montgomery has played really well for San Antonio, he could be called back or make Dallas next year. 

[CanadaFan123]

1 minute ago, costarg said:

Thing is, being weak at CB or even moderately weak at CB is a huge gaping hole that ANY quick and physical team can take advantage of.  Given the option, I'd rather play with no real #9 any day of the week.

This is true but I’d also say that it’s also an area where you can find a right mix and be effective. Case in point Haiti during the last gold cup. Their two starters are now CPL defenders but they were effective.

We had similar success in the past with odd pairings, such as Hastings and Hainault. I think we need to focus on finding those two partners, rather than looking at clubs/levels. FWIW Cornelius and Vitoria looked like a good combo vs the states and then Herdman broke them up the next month. 

[SpecialK]

2022 is still a little ways ahead. There is going to be a TON of soccer in between. U23/Olympics, the gold cup , World Cup qualifiers, friendlies. 
 

also we could have a shocker that come out of no where like Tomori coming back or Malik Owolabi-Belewu can get his citizenship( transfermarket has him as a Canadian BTW) 

Edited October 1, 2020 by SpecialK

[Mikmacdo]

I feel like Dunn and Kennedy will be the best two options within two years. 

[Shway]

A lot of Kennedy talk, do we even know if he’s been contacted? @Ian Kennedy last stated that no one from the CSA had contacted his son - which is bullshït considering we’ve reached out to Martin Amuz. 

I hope it’s just old news.

[Cheeta]

Few names for the future there (I expect and hope)  but the current for now is still questionable.  Admit I have a bias against younger center halfs, in much the same way I have a bias against younger 'keepers however, I'm just not seeing our journeyman not bringing too much in the way of physical liabililties to the pitch which can be smoothed over with a youthful partnership.  Going forward for good or bad it's down to the newer generation of players to see us through. 

I guess that has to be exciting for them. Stressful for everyone but exiciting.

Like James.  Henry I'm a little "oh, boy" about but hard to imagine one if not both being central to the MNT future.  

[toontownman]

We have lots of young potential but nothing in a breakout mould like we have seen in other areas of the pitch. 

That notion is a bit deceiving though. It doesn't help that CB's mature later and it is hard to see full stand out potential all the time. We have a ton of young options coming through which maybe bodes well for 2026 at least. 

Probably right about the CPL gap but that doesnt mean those players wont be important with olympic qualifiers and evem the gold cup. Which could be the making of players too. TMG looked good for Pacific. Boskovic and Facchineri had moments but both good and bad. I really hope Dunn gets a chance at TFC, he was a revelation in those few games. Alongside an experienced head to learn from he could be a breakout for 22.  schaale might be eligible by 2022!

Hakkinen is intriguing if we get him. Which sounded possible. Frank Sturring seemed like another one to keep an eye on. Not sure if he got a club yet. 

We have lots of potential, more than a year or two ago, but its just that right now. 

 

[An Observer]

1 hour ago, SpecialK said:

Montgomery has played really well for San Antonio, he could be called back or make Dallas next year. 

He’s definitely one of my hopes for a breakthrough in the next year

[An Observer]

1 hour ago, SpecialK said:

2022 is still a little ways ahead. There is going to be a TON of soccer in between. U23/Olympics, the gold cup , World Cup qualifiers, friendlies. 
 

also we could have a shocker that come out of no where like Tomori coming back or Malik Owolabi-Belewu can get his citizenship( transfermarket has him as a Canadian BTW) 

2022 is only two years away.  You really need a couple of these guys to breakthrough in 2021 ad really don’t want to be heading into the World Cup with a player who really has only played half a season or so at a high level. I think the realistic scenario is two of Henry, Cornelius, Vitoria, and James if we qualify for 2022.  Possibly Kennedy. If we get lucky, someone else emerges quicker than normal and Ferreira regains his form and wants to play for us.  Even then, the back line will be likely our weakest link and we still have 2021 and first half of 2022 to get through WCQ.  It is what it is.  
 

As someone said, 2026 should be better

[toontownman]

Halbouni and Mekideche are a couple of other prospects. Probably the former more than the latter. 

[Unnamed Trialist]

5 hours ago, SpecialK said:

Your missing a few players. Scott Kennedy is one. Dunn, Romeo , Zator, Gasparotto, MacNaughton, Meilleur-Giguère, Edgar, Didic, Straith, Montgomery,Hainault

Pretty well proves his point. 

We don't have a single stand-out CB, and then, if he could pair with a decent guy on a team well coached at the back, we'd be fine. But we're not. And CB is the main reason why Canada is not a reliable bet for doing much more than what we have done for years.

[BrennanFan]

Our 2 best options are Henry and James. Both in their prime. Both experienced. 

Henry plays at a decent level, his team is fighting relegation but Henry is a very important player in the set up. Henry is a Herdman favourite and will certainly start for us as long as he's healthy and playing for his club. 

James plays at the highest level of any CB in our pool, his team just made the Champions League, but his playing time is limited. He was in Herdman's doghouse for all of 2019, presumably because he wasn't playing for his club. To his credit, he stuck it out with the Danish Champs and is now getting more minutes. He's earned a recall. 

We've yet to see these two have a run of games playing together. They have similar attributes, though James may be a bit better with his feet. Both are dangerous on set pieces, physically imposing, fast and highly athletic. 

Cornelius may be more complimentary in style to Henry, and has played well for us when called upon, but Vancouver is a tire fire right now. Vitoria, the old head is still going strong, just started against Benfica, is he the right guy to reign in Henry's aggression? 

Everyone else is a step behind are not realistic options yet. Aside from the above, I'd only trust Jakovic to actually play a qualifier for us. 

[archer21]

27 minutes ago, BrennanFan said:

Our 2 best options are Henry and James. Both in their prime. Both experienced. 

Henry plays at a decent level, his team is fighting relegation but Henry is a very important player in the set up. Henry is a Herdman favourite and will certainly start for us as long as he's healthy and playing for his club. 

James plays at the highest level of any CB in our pool, his team just made the Champions League, but his playing time is limited. He was in Herdman's doghouse for all of 2019, presumably because he wasn't playing for his club. To his credit, he stuck it out with the Danish Champs and is now getting more minutes. He's earned a recall. 

We've yet to see these two have a run of games playing together. They have similar attributes, though James may be a bit better with his feet. Both are dangerous on set pieces, physically imposing, fast and highly athletic. 

Cornelius may be more complimentary in style to Henry, and has played well for us when called upon, but Vancouver is a tire fire right now. Vitoria, the old head is still going strong, just started against Benfica, is he the right guy to reign in Henry's aggression? 

Everyone else is a step behind are not realistic options yet. Aside from the above, I'd only trust Jakovic to actually play a qualifier for us. 

It's a shame Kamal Miller hasn't gotten much playing time this season. He looked solid for us when called upon, I was hoping he'd put himself in that top tier with Cornelius/James/Henry/Vitoria. I honestly haven't seen Jakovic play much recently so it's hard to comment, but he is getting a lot of minutes on a good team so he has to at least get a look.

[Obinna]

The problem is that we have no prospects that look destined to be a tier 1 player, as Herdman would put it. Tomori would have changed the game for us. He is not playing with England or Chelsea, so I wonder if he'll come to regret his choice. 

 

[Kadenge]

While I agree that CB is our weak link, our entire back 4 was an issue from 2018 WCQ  to 2019 GC...   Our fullbacks were weak and that put more pressure on the CBs. We finally look like we may have decent players at FB. The team  now  has to be set up with the right tactical system to  strengthen our ability to defend. We should be able to score goals with the quality forwards and mids on our squad. Playing run and gun like we tried to do vs the US in Orlando is not going to end up well.

[toontownman]

1 hour ago, Obinna said:

The problem is that we have no prospects that look destined to be a tier 1 player, as Herdman would put it. Tomori would have changed the game for us. He is not playing with England or Chelsea, so I wonder if he'll come to regret his choice. 

 

No doubting how huge Tomori would have been for us. He looks to have already dropped down the depth chart and was clearly sold the dream and captied. He is even 2nd choice at Chelsea now. A few months the wrong side of the new fifa ruling will hurt him even more down the line imo. 

Edited October 1, 2020 by toontownman

[Obinna]

27 minutes ago, toontownman said:

No doubting how huge Tomori would have been for us. He looks to have already dropped down the depth chart and was clearly sold the dream and captied. He is even 2nd choice at Chelsea now. A few months the wrong side of the new fifa ruling will hurt him even more down the line imo. 

Not to go on too much about Tomori, a player who is no longer part of our plans, but I fully agree and I also think it's particularly unfortunate for him because he could have also chosen Nigeria, which would have been a solid option. Double the regret perhaps?

Easy to say in hindsight, but he really should have kept his options open until he was firmly entrenched in Chelsea's team. He still had time on his side, there was no rush. If you can hold down a starting job at Chelsea for multiple seasons, you're going to factor into England's plans. But instead he lost his spot midway through his first season and is still on the outside looking in, so he's not going to get called back to England until something changes. Now he's cap-tied, so sucks to be him. Feels like he jumped the gun with England.

With Canada or possibly even Nigeria, being a fringe Chelsea player would still make him a first choice selection. He could use national team games to help find a way back into Chelsea. He doesn't have that option now. 

Edited October 1, 2020 by Obinna