Opponent watch: Suriname (why they have the potential to be a tough team)

[WestHamCanadianinOxford]

So from reading the rules: 

Tomori and these Suriname players are not eligible to switch because they played an official game (any official game) when they were 21 or older. 

Correct?

[Obinna]

4 minutes ago, WestHamCanadianinOxford said:

So from reading the rules: 

Tomori and these Suriname players are not eligible to switch because they played an official game (any official game) when they were 21 or older. 

Correct?

I don't think so. The BBC article says featuring in an official competition would prohibit a switch, not a qualifier to that competition. It also insinuated that playing in Nations League would not be binding. 

Edited October 28, 2020 by Obinna

[VinceA]

So did they change the rule that if a players has two eligible nationalities at the time he represents 1 in an official youth competition, he can switch to the other with his one time switch?

Because otherwise there's not reason for those players to be denied. 

Or is it because of Suriname's unique citizenship laws?

Edited October 28, 2020 by VinceA

[WestHamCanadianinOxford]

23 minutes ago, Obinna said:

I don't think so. The BBC article says featuring in an official competition would prohibit a switch, not a qualifier to that competition. It also insinuated that playing in Nations League would not be binding. 

Being in a finals automatically prohibits you from switching, no matter the age or that is how I read this 

"vi) has never participated in any kind of football at “A” international level in the final tournament of the FIFA World Cup or a final tournament of a confederation competition."

I believe that is what they mean. 

You get your three matches in the Nations league etc. but only if you are under 21. Tomori wasn't for his one. 

Leerdam is not eligible because he played in the under 21 Euros ("in an official competition in any kind of football") in 2013  when he was almost 23 if I am reading this right.  (born 1990) 

Edit: So the finals thing is only for A matches but the age restrictions are for any kind of official match including youth.  I believe.

Edited October 28, 2020 by WestHamCanadianinOxford

[Shway]

42 minutes ago, dyslexic nam said:

Lol.  Tomorrow is gone boys.  Let him be a shining beacon of short term thinking to warn others.   

But why, if we can’t look to tomorrow then how do we plan for our future!

...oh wait nvm 😏

[Obinna]

13 minutes ago, WestHamCanadianinOxford said:

Being in a finals automatically prohibits you from switching, no matter the age or that is how I read this 

"vi) has never participated in any kind of football at “A” international level in the final tournament of the FIFA World Cup or a final tournament of a confederation competition."

I believe that is what they mean. 

You get your three matches in the Nations league etc. but only if you are under 21. Tomori wasn't for his one. 

Leerdam is not eligible because he played in the under 21 Euros ("in an official competition in any kind of football") in 2013  when he was almost 23 if I am reading this right.  (born 1990) 

If that is the original source do you mind sharing? I would like to see it.

Ah I think I see what you are seeing.

But you are assuming under 21 Euros is "an official competition of any kind", but it would not be in the context of senior football. The "A" part of that makes me think they are talking about senior football. I don't think they do "B" at the youth levels. 

There are lawyers looking into it apparently, so we'll have to see if Leerdam and other are indeed disqualified.

 

Edited October 28, 2020 by Obinna

[Shway]

If lawyers are looking into this, than there still is the Court of Arbitration for Sport which usually gives the ultimately ruling on these kind of grey matters. I still think Tomori (albeit he wants to switch "back") has a case to put through to based on the fact he only played 6 mins for England in a non binding game and was 10months past his 21st birthday.

You have to beliieeeeeevvvve @dyslexic nam

Edited October 28, 2020 by Shway

[WestHamCanadianinOxford]

2 minutes ago, Obinna said:

If that is the original source do you mind sharing? I would like to see it.

Ah I think I see what you are seeing.

But you are assuming under 21 Euros is "an official competition of any kind", but it would not be in the context of senior football. The "A" part of that makes me think they are talking about senior football. I don't think they do "B" at the youth levels. 

There are lawyers looking into it apparently, so we'll have to see if Leerdam and other are indeed disqualified.

It is in my earlier post but in an edit, so it probably got lost. Sorry.

https://resources.fifa.com/image/upload/fifa-statutes-2020.pdf?cloudid=viz2gmyb5x0pd24qrhrx

Begins bottom of p. 77

Also in the article about the Suriname team shared earlier, the coach gives the reason, which matches what I found (at least in translation)

"The problem lies in that age, because boys like Donk and Leerdam played final rounds of Under 21 tournaments with the Juniors when they were just 22. That is why those applications were rejected. I think that is very wrong", national coach Dean Gorré said."

https://www.fcupdate.nl/voetbalnieuws/374181/suriname-krijgt-nul-op-rekest-voor-donk-leeerdam-en-jozefzoon/

[SpursFlu]

Lots of money coming in to Guyana and Suriname nowadays. no longer backwoods countries. Along with this rule change, I completely expect them to join Conmebol soon. They really shouldn't be in Concacaf anyways. In the meantime they're gonna be tough 

Edited October 28, 2020 by SpursFlu

[Stryker911]

40 minutes ago, SpursFlu said:

Lots of money coming in to Guyana and Suriname nowadays. no longer backwoods countries. Along with this rule change, I completely expect them to join Conmebol soon. They really shouldn't be in Concacaf anyways. In the meantime they're gonna be tough 

Also French Guiana. Why are they even in CONCACAF when they are in South America? Can Canada apply to be in Oceania?

[SpursFlu]

11 minutes ago, Stryker911 said:

Also French Guiana. Why are they even in CONCACAF when they are in South America? Can Canada apply to be in Oceania?

I think French Guiana isn't a member of fifa. I think. Those countries aren't in Conmebol i think because traditionally they'd been so bad and unable to organize themselves that Conmebol so no use for them. There has been some chatter recently about them and Curacao joining Conmebol 

[Alex]

3 hours ago, SpursFlu said:

I think French Guiana isn't a member of fifa. I think. Those countries aren't in Conmebol i think because traditionally they'd been so bad and unable to organize themselves that Conmebol so no use for them. There has been some chatter recently about them and Curacao joining Conmebol 

Guyana, Suriname and French Guiana are more closely connected to Caribbean culture that’s why they are in concacaf and have been for decades. 

[Stryker911]

26 minutes ago, Alex said:

Guyana, Suriname and French Guiana are more closely connected to Caribbean culture that’s why they are in concacaf and have been for decades. 

Why is culture relevant? Our culture is more relevant to Western Europe than the Caribbean. All that should matter is geographical location.

[Alex]

18 minutes ago, Stryker911 said:

Why is culture relevant? Our culture is more relevant to Western Europe than the Caribbean. All that should matter is geographical location.

I don’t make the rules, but that’s why they are in concacaf. If you look at a map it’s also easier for them to travel to many Caribbean islands than to Chile for example. 

[SpursFlu]

33 minutes ago, Alex said:

I don’t make the rules, but that’s why they are in concacaf. If you look at a map it’s also easier for them to travel to many Caribbean islands than to Chile for example. 

I think you should look at a map. Plus its not the Caribbean football federation. Im not sure if youve noticed but the football federations are based on continents 

[Alex]

1 hour ago, SpursFlu said:

I think you should look at a map. Plus its not the Caribbean football federation. Im not sure if youve noticed but the football federations are based on continents 

I looked at a map. The Caribbean islands are more convenient to get to for these nations than most of South America is. Also, the reality is these South American nations play in concacaf. You’re right though the football federations are based on continents. Oh wait, unless you live in Australia or Israel or Azerbaijan or Kazakhstan (which is smack in the middle of Central Asia) you play in a confederation that’s different from the continent your country is in. 

[SpursFlu]

2 hours ago, Alex said:

I looked at a map. The Caribbean islands are more convenient to get to for these nations than most of South America is. Also, the reality is these South American nations play in concacaf. You’re right though the football federations are based on continents. Oh wait, unless you live in Australia or Israel or Azerbaijan or Kazakhstan (which is smack in the middle of Central Asia) you play in a confederation that’s different from the continent your country is in. 

I think you should look at a map

[JamboAl]

Soccer is about politics, culture, money and occasionally competitive balance.  CONMEBOL might not have ever wanted Surinam or Guyana.  

[Alex]

6 hours ago, SpursFlu said:

I think you should look at a map

I’m glad you understand what I’m saying.

[narduch]

Its also due to competitive reasons.

Those nations would get trounced by the other 10 South American nations.

Plus I think Conmebol likes its 10 team WCQ.

Australia plays in Asia and Israel plays in Europe. So its not unheard of for teams to play in a different continent.

Edited October 29, 2020 by narduch

[Obinna]

4 hours ago, Alex said:

I’m glad you understand what I’m saying.

I get what you are saying man.

Interestingly, Venezuela is another country with Caribbean elements, and to a lesser degree Colombia. Take Salsa for instance. It's origins are in the Latin Caribbean: Cuba, Puerto Rico, Dominican, etc. They are also big in those two South American countries. Same goes for the popularity of Baseball. The gateway for such cultural links is the Caribbean sea itself, which makes up 99% of the Venezuela coastline.

So yes, Colombia and especially Venezuela are culturally part of the Caribbean and this was made clear to me from the Venezuelans I have known over the years. 

Despite the cultural ties, as well as the Geographic proximity, both nations belong to Conmebol. They are technically part of South America.

Cultural overlap between continents exists elsewhere too. Morocco is a Mediterranean, African country. Spain is a Mediterranean, European country. They have more in common with each other than Morocco has with Madagascar, for example.

 

Edited October 29, 2020 by Obinna

[WestHamCanadianinOxford]

A bit bored (we cancelled our trip home because of COVID so have days to use up) and thought I would translate the semi-legalese of the FIFA statutes on switching and share them/make sure I am reading them right.

Based on https://resources.fifa.com/image/upload/fifa-statutes-2020.pdf?cloudid=viz2gmyb5x0pd24qrhrx.  p. 77  - Article 9 Change of association

There "only" 5 ( labelled a. - e. under point 2) situations in which you are eligible for a switch.  

a. You can have played any matches except an "A" level official match (senior, not a friendly etc.) but when you played your first match for the nation you wish to switch from, you already held the nationality of the nation you want to switch to. 

eg. Declan Rice, was an English national by and from birth, qualified for Ireland through family.  Played a number of friendlies for the ROI but switched to England. 

b. You can have played any matches except an "A" level official match (senior, not a friendly etc.) and were not a national of your proposed new nation when you played your first international match, but you fulfil a nationality requirement (you, parent or grandparent born in new nation or residency - usually 5 years). And you must be under 21 (not 21) when you played your "last match in an official
competition in any kind of football" ie. official youth tournaments count.   

That is where the Suriname players mentioned become ineligible. 

c. You played in up to 3 "A" level official matches for your old country but you were under 21 when you played your last match and you already held the nationality of your new nation.  3 years must also have passed since you played any "A" level - official or non-official - match for your old nation.   

Tomori would be eligible (in 3 years) I believe but he already failed the age - under 21 - requirement even if he does not play another game. 

 d. You want to play for a recently admitted FIFA nation and have never played any kind of match at any level for another nation after your proposed new nation has been admitted to FIFA. 

No idea if there are actual examples but if you played for another nation before 2016 when Kosovo was admitted, you could switch to them, if you qualified, as long as you did not play for your old nation after 2016.   

e. You played any "A" level official matches for a nation but permanently lose that nationality without your consent or against your will because of a government authority.  And you have the nationality of the new nation. 

Please correct if necessary.

[SpursFlu]

10 hours ago, JamboAl said:

Soccer is about politics, culture, money and occasionally competitive balance.  CONMEBOL might not have ever wanted Surinam or Guyana.  

They didn't. But with this rule change and the fact that those two countries are gaining fiscal clout and taking in people that will likely change. Federations also want as many votes as possible. All part of my original point

Edited October 29, 2020 by SpursFlu

[SthMelbRed]

2 hours ago, WestHamCanadianinOxford said:

A bit bored (we cancelled our trip home because of COVID so have days to use up) and thought I would translate the semi-legalese of the FIFA statutes on switching and share them/make sure I am reading them right.

Based on https://resources.fifa.com/image/upload/fifa-statutes-2020.pdf?cloudid=viz2gmyb5x0pd24qrhrx.  p. 77  - Article 9 Change of association

There "only" 5 ( labelled a. - e. under point 2) situations in which you are eligible for a switch.  

a. You can have played any matches except an "A" level official match (senior, not a friendly etc.) but when you played your first match for the nation you wish to switch from, you already held the nationality of the nation you want to switch to. 

eg. Declan Rice, was an English national by and from birth, qualified for Ireland through family.  Played a number of friendlies for the ROI but switched to England. 

b. You can have played any matches except an "A" level official match (senior, not a friendly etc.) and were not a national of your proposed new nation when you played your first international match, but you fulfil a nationality requirement (you, parent or grandparent born in new nation or residency - usually 5 years). And you must be under 21 (not 21) when you played your "last match in an official
competition in any kind of football" ie. official youth tournaments count.   

That is where the Suriname players mentioned become ineligible. 

c. You played in up to 3 "A" level official matches for your old country but you were under 21 when you played your last match and you already held the nationality of your new nation.  3 years must also have passed since you played any "A" level - official or non-official - match for your old nation.   

Tomori would be eligible (in 3 years) I believe but he already failed the age - under 21 - requirement even if he does not play another game. 

 d. You want to play for a recently admitted FIFA nation and have never played any kind of match at any level for another nation after your proposed new nation has been admitted to FIFA. 

No idea if there are actual examples but if you played for another nation before 2016 when Kosovo was admitted, you could switch to them, if you qualified, as long as you did not play for your old nation after 2016.   

e. You played any "A" level official matches for a nation but permanently lose that nationality without your consent or against your will because of a government authority.  And you have the nationality of the new nation. 

Please correct if necessary.

This was the rule under which Swiss internationals, Shaqiri and Xhaka, publically mused about switching to Kosovo a few years back. They ended up sticking with Switzerland, but other, lesser known players, did switch, I believe.                                                                        

[xabuep2]

13 hours ago, Obinna said:

I get what you are saying man.

Interestingly, Venezuela is another country with Caribbean elements, and to a lesser degree Colombia. Take Salsa for instance. It's origins are in the Latin Caribbean: Cuba, Puerto Rico, Dominican, etc. They are also big in those two South American countries. Same goes for the popularity of Baseball. The gateway for such cultural links is the Caribbean sea itself, which makes up 99% of the Venezuela coastline.

So yes, Colombia and especially Venezuela are culturally part of the Caribbean and this was made clear to me from the Venezuelans I have known over the years. 

Despite the cultural ties, as well as the Geographic proximity, both nations belong to Conmebol. They are technically part of South America.

Cultural overlap between continents exists elsewhere too. Morocco is a Mediterranean, African country. Spain is a Mediterranean, European country. They have more in common with each other than Morocco has with Madagascar, for example.

 

Air connections between Guyana / Suriname and South America are minimal or non-existent. A few years ago the Venezuelan state airline Conviasa flew from Caracas to Georgetown .... I suppose that is another compelling reason for the Guianas to play in Concacaf: they are more connected with Port of Spain and Miami than with other points in South America.

I believe that if Suriname and Guyana were to raise their football level, it would not be unreasonable for them to be part of Conmebol in the future.

Regarding the cultural aspect, I was born in Caracas and we always regard Guyana as the distant neighbor, with whom we never speak, and although we have a border with them, language differences and the dense jungle always separated us a bit , even with Brazil, since the border that both countries share is a very unpopulated area. Venezuela is closer to Spanish-speaking Caribbean countries, however the Andean region (Mérida, Tachira) has a lot of cultural similarity with Colombia, Ecuador and Peru ...

Edited October 30, 2020 by xabuep2