Opponent watch: Suriname (why they have the potential to be a tough team)

[PiedPilko]

Just gonna update this. 

 

I guess it's gonna be a while now, but this is why I maintain there's very good reason to be nervous about Suriname. Again, I don't think you can make a real argument that they're better than Canada, because Davies and David are leagues ahead of anyone they have, but I think it's a bit unfair to say that any team that might struggle against them have no place in the World Cup. This group is probably as close to a Dutch B team as you're gonna get, and I think it's safe to say they're quite a bit better than the Panama squad that made the World Cup 2 years ago.

 

Attached here is a squad of confirmed Suriname players constructed on a Fifa 20 team builder, next to Canada's team. Obviously Fifa ratings aren't definitive whatsoever, but that of course applies to Canada as well. I'd be interested to hear who we think is under/overrrated, or if we think players can be put on a scale like this at all. With Atiba in our lineup, mind you, the game gives Suriname the same team rating as Canada. The caveats being that I added Zeegelaar, who is not confirmed, to fill out their 11, and that several of them are playing out of position. These means that they'll be forced to add 2-3 players from their domestic league, which is where we have a huge advantage. However, like us, Suriname has a decent amount of players in European leagues.

 

There are a lot of factors, of course. For one, this group has spent no time together, and half of them haven't registered a single cap yet. That being the case adds the additional possibility that any one of them might not even show up. 

 

So, I think there are 3 tiers of Concacaf that have a realistic shot at the World Cup. There's Mexico in their own tier, then the USA in their tier, and then the giant tier of bubbles teams any of whom could take the 3rd or 4th spot. In this tier, I think, are Jamaica, Costa Rica, us, Curacao, Panama, Honduras and yes, Suriname. Point being, I think when we play any of these teams, there's a decent chance that we don't win. 

 

You might say that we HAVE to be better than all of these teams if we want to be taken seriously at an international level, which is sort of true, but there is undeniably an element of luck in the process, and we're gonna need that, combined with the talent we do have, to get far.

Edited September 12, 2020 by PiedPilko

[Mikmacdo]

Fifa ratings are awful how is bisewar better than hoilet significantly. 

Davies will be 80 plus. 

[Nate3322]

I really don't see what the hype is about with Suriname.... Most of those guys are 30+ or playing at a low European level. Don't want to sound arrogant but on paper we are superior to this Suriname team in every position except at CB. Davies, David and Hoilett will run circles around Donk. Our midfield is better and more well rounded then theirs. and outside of Donk our defenses are comparable with ours being younger and more promising. Borjan is miles ahead of Hahn. Zeeglaar is probably the best player on the team and he's already rejected a call up to their NT.

Edited September 12, 2020 by Nate3322

[Obinna]

There is also the matter of how that team would gel, as many of the players would not have played much together, faced much adversity together as a team, etc.

I heard KJ talking today about Toronto FC having "reference points" upon which to draw on when the going gets tough. Canada doesn't have many of those, but Suriname would have far less. Even aside from that, Davies (and you can argue Osorio and Laryea) are chronic winners at the club level now. These guys may give us the edge if things get close.  

[VinceA]

1 hour ago, Obinna said:

There is also the matter of how that team would gel, as many of the players would not have played much together, faced much adversity together as a team, etc.

I heard KJ talking today about Toronto FC having "reference points" upon which to draw on when the going gets tough. Canada doesn't have many of those, but Suriname would have far less. Even aside from that, Davies (and you can argue Osorio and Laryea) are chronic winners at the club level now. These guys may give us the edge if things get close.  

Yeah ultimately I don't see Suriname putting up a huge fight im more interested in how they do going into 2026. Similar to how at the 2017 GC you could see there was a good team in Curacao but they were still building a foundation and they were much improved in 2019.

[Bertuzzi44]

Honestly, there is a solid starting XI in that original list of players. Potentially very good by CONCACAF standards. 

Now, I don't want to overestimate Suriname's potential, but for those very confident we could "easily" handle them ask yourself this: How does Suriname's best XI match up against Haiti? Because we lost to Haiti in a very very meaningful game...

[PiedPilko]

41 minutes ago, Bertuzzi44 said:

Honestly, there is a solid starting XI in that original list of players. Potentially very good by CONCACAF standards. 

Now, I don't want to overestimate Suriname's potential, but for those very confident we could "easily" handle them ask yourself this: How does Suriname's best XI match up against Haiti? Because we lost to Haiti in a very very meaningful game...

This is exactly what I'm thinking. I don't think they're a spooky juggernaut or something, but this is a good CONCACAF squad, and there's no use in underestimating them.

[Addona]

23 hours ago, PiedPilko said:

Just gonna update this. 

 

I guess it's gonna be a while now, but this is why I maintain there's very good reason to be nervous about Suriname. Again, I don't think you can make a real argument that they're better than Canada, because Davies and David are leagues ahead of anyone they have, but I think it's a bit unfair to say that any team that might struggle against them have no place in the World Cup. This group is probably as close to a Dutch B team as you're gonna get, and I think it's safe to say they're quite a bit better than the Panama squad that made the World Cup 2 years ago.

 

Attached here is a squad of confirmed Suriname players constructed on a Fifa 20 team builder, next to Canada's team. Obviously Fifa ratings aren't definitive whatsoever, but that of course applies to Canada as well. I'd be interested to hear who we think is under/overrrated, or if we think players can be put on a scale like this at all. With Atiba in our lineup, mind you, the game gives Suriname the same team rating as Canada. The caveats being that I added Zeegelaar, who is not confirmed, to fill out their 11, and that several of them are playing out of position. These means that they'll be forced to add 2-3 players from their domestic league, which is where we have a huge advantage. However, like us, Suriname has a decent amount of players in European leagues.

 

There are a lot of factors, of course. For one, this group has spent no time together, and half of them haven't registered a single cap yet. That being the case adds the additional possibility that any one of them might not even show up. 

 

So, I think there are 3 tiers of Concacaf that have a realistic shot at the World Cup. There's Mexico in their own tier, then the USA in their tier, and then the giant tier of bubbles teams any of whom could take the 3rd or 4th spot. In this tier, I think, are Jamaica, Costa Rica, us, Curacao, Panama, Honduras and yes, Suriname. Point being, I think when we play any of these teams, there's a decent chance that we don't win. 

 

You might say that we HAVE to be better than all of these teams if we want to be taken seriously at an international level, which is sort of true, but there is undeniably an element of luck in the process, and we're gonna need that, combined with the talent we do have, to get far.

I object to any Canada lineup that has Cav taking penalties!  😉

Ok, all jokes aside, yes, Suriname is likely going to be stronger than other teams we’d expect to face at this state. But, we still have to focus and do the job.  As long as we don’t take them for granted we should be ok.

[One American]

I'm still in the "Are those guys really going to show up?" phase. 

 

[Trois Reds]

You have to remember with the Fifa games, they almost automatically drop anyone who isn't playing in a European league (and isn't a DP in MLS) by 3 to 5 points just because, you know, Europe. So Suriname's rankings are automatically inflated.

[Mikmacdo]

davies is  now an 81 which is about 5 points too low

[PiedPilko]

Suriname update: 

Apparently 7 players have been blocked by FIFA from joining Suriname, including Ryan Donk and Diego Bisewar, who would probably be their two stars. That leaves most of their imports in the Dutch second tier. Crystal Palace CB Jairo Riedewald might still be a possibility though.

[Obinna]

1 minute ago, PiedPilko said:

Suriname update: 

Apparently 7 players have been blocked by FIFA from joining Suriname, including Ryan Donk and Diego Bisewar, who would probably be their two stars. That leaves most of their imports in the Dutch second tier. Crystal Palace CB Jairo Riedewald might still be a possibility though.

Not that I am complaining but I would feel shafted if I was a Suriname fan. Because they fell on the wrong side of FIFA's arbitrary line of 21 when they played for Holland's youth teams? I mean, I guess you gotta draw the line somewhere, but that really sucks them and the region. We want stronger teams. 

However, it is good for us 😎 

[Shway]

3 minutes ago, PiedPilko said:

Suriname update: 

Apparently 7 players have been blocked by FIFA from joining Suriname, including Ryan Donk and Diego Bisewar, who would probably be their two stars.

Makes no sense how they are not eligible...Leerdam especially. I'm confused again on how the rules work. 

Born in Suriname, but played youth football for Netherlands specifically at the UEFA u19 tournament...makes him ineligible? Even though he has never represented the senior side? 

I thought the rule worked that if you played for a youth team before you were eligible to represent a new country makes you ineligible. 

[Shway]

3 minutes ago, Obinna said:

However, it is good for us 😎 

Not good, if it works against us in a case for Tomori to switch based on the fact he played 6 mins for England 10 months past his 21st birthday.

[Obinna]

10 minutes ago, Shway said:

Makes no sense how they are not eligible...Leerdam especially. I'm confused again on how the rules work. 

Born in Suriname, but played youth football for Netherlands specifically at the UEFA u19 tournament...makes him ineligible? Even though he has never represented the senior side? 

I thought the rule worked that if you played for a youth team before you were eligible to represent a new country makes you ineligible. 

My understanding of the new rule is that if you represent a country while you are 21 years or younger, you can switch, so long as you have played no more than 3 senior international games. Leerdam for example represented Netherlands U-21 as a 22 year old, so he is disqualified. 

8 minutes ago, Shway said:

Not good, if it works against us in a case for Tomori to switch based on the fact he played 6 mins for England 10 months past his 21st birthday.

Tomori, if I understand the rule, is still in play, because he was 21 when he represented England last year. I believe it is 21 years or younger.

Edited October 28, 2020 by Obinna

[CanadaFan123]

Tomori is not in play by my reading of this. He was 21, not under 21.

I’m not understanding why these players would be ineligible though as even without the recent rule change they would be? I thought that playing for a youth team only ruled you out if you weren’t eligible for the nation you were switching to at that time.

Otherwise how do we have Eustaquio, Arfield, Vitoria and Wotherspoon? 

[Weng]

8 minutes ago, CanadaFan123 said:

Tomori is not in play by my reading of this. He was 21, not under 21.

I’m not understanding why these players would be ineligible though as even without the recent rule change they would be? I thought that playing for a youth team only ruled you out if you weren’t eligible for the nation you were switching to at that time.

Otherwise how do we have Eustaquio, Arfield, Vitoria and Wotherspoon? 

Tomori played with the England senior team in the Nations League.  This is why it is an issue.

[Shway]

7 minutes ago, CanadaFan123 said:

Tomori is not in play by my reading of this. He was 21, not under 21.

I’m not understanding why these players would be ineligible though as even without the recent rule change they would be? I thought that playing for a youth team only ruled you out if you weren’t eligible for the nation you were switching to at that time.

Otherwise how do we have Eustaquio, Arfield, Vitoria and Wotherspoon? 

This is what I was attempting to suggest.

No way they went forward and backward with the new rule change.

[Shway]

Just now, Weng said:

Tomori played with the England senior team in the Nations League.  This is why it is an issue.

But he’s still under the 3 game rule, and the nations league group Stage games isn’t consider a final tournament.

[Weng]

Fair enough.  Hopefully there is some clarity made by FIFA regarding some of these new rules 

[WestHamCanadianinOxford]

According to the BBC

 

"Players can now switch if they have played no more than three competitive matches at senior level prior to them turning 21."

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/54211943

Edit:

From the FIFA Statutes 

"A request to change association may be granted only in the following circumstances:

...

iii) at the time of being fielded for his last match in an official competition in any kind of football for his current association, he had not turned 21 years old; 

https://resources.fifa.com/image/upload/fifa-statutes-2020.pdf?cloudid=viz2gmyb5x0pd24qrhrx

Edited October 28, 2020 by WestHamCanadianinOxford

[dyslexic nam]

Lol.  Tomori is gone boys.  Let him be a shining beacon of short term thinking to warn others.   

Edited October 28, 2020 by dyslexic nam

[Obinna]

This is why I don't like so many rule changes 😄

Unless there is a critical flaw in the system, stick to the current rules and carry on. 

[Obinna]

All the major outlets are reporting it as 21 years or younger, but I cannot find an original source for this. Could it be a case of a mixed up detail that got perpetuated? Why else would Kevin Leerdam not be eligible?

Edited October 28, 2020 by Obinna