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Theo Corbeanu


jordan

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6 minutes ago, CanadaFan123 said:

I think you need to be a bit more specific or you’re going to have too many results I.e. Defoe, Benezet.

 

25 and under, played in Europe, played in MLS, went back to Europe playing for a better team than his last euro club. Benezet left Seattle to go play in Ligue 2- seems more of a go home and sunset the career move more than a move to go to a better club. 
 

Edited by InglewoodJack
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1 hour ago, InglewoodJack said:

25 and under, played in Europe, played in MLS, went back to Europe playing for a better team than his last euro club. Benezet left Seattle to go play in Ligue 2- seems more of a go home and sunset the career move more than a move to go to a better club. 
 

Can’t think of any that jump out. Martinez would have been the closest as he came here at 24 and certainly could have went back to Europe at a bigger club. The probably is that all examples would be South American and under 25s coming from there would be extremely rare. 
 

Adam Buksa is my lone example with your criteria. Having a Canadian/American at that criteria is almost impossible given the needed timelines/circumstances. 


edit: Przemysław Frankowski too

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2 hours ago, CanadaFan123 said:

Can’t think of any that jump out. Martinez would have been the closest as he came here at 24 and certainly could have went back to Europe at a bigger club. The probably is that all examples would be South American and under 25s coming from there would be extremely rare. 
 

Adam Buksa is my lone example with your criteria. Having a Canadian/American at that criteria is almost impossible given the needed timelines/circumstances. 


edit: Przemysław Frankowski too

I think I actually asked this a few months ago, and someone gave me the Buksa example, but yeah, it's not a very common occurance. I think a lot of scouts aren't interested in seeing players flame out of europe twice, so if you're North American, I think going back to MLS puts a black mark on your resume.

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  • 1 month later...
1 hour ago, VinceA said:

Is he just getting time a sub, putting in a middling performance and then rinse and repeat? Seems like it based on the Fotmob scores.

Maybe a move to MLS might help or the Swiss league ? Or just stay in Germany and toughen it out, but in the end he needs playing time . The guy has all the physical attributes just needs to get his soccer brain going and he can excel. Moreover, if he were to come to the MLS and show that he could nail down a consistent starting position and play well , I don’t buy that no  decent level European team would look at him because he went to the MLS . I think many would look at it as him finally maturing and finally moving towards fulling his potential. 

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Just now, Floortom said:

Each loan spell seems to be worst than the last for him. Really needs to drop down a level (or two) and stay with that club for a full season. Don’t think he’s gotten much out of the last few loans unfortunately 

I was worried he was going to fall victim to the loan army. Young guys, especially for Canada and what we need from our prospects shouldn't be at clubs were it's obvious they won't get games or are in their long term plans. We all got excited he got one sub app for Wolves at the end of a premier league season but it was obvious he wasn't high on the list of prospects.

He needed to leave Wolves and go somewhere where he can stick for a few years and play regularly week in and week out.

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Seems like this loan to Germany was dreadful. But let’s not forget that run he went on for Blackpool where he was banging in goals as a 19 year old in a very competitive league.

We also can’t forget that he’s still one of our best prospects and is still very young. Through these “tough times”, he is indeed gaining more and more experience. 

I still have high hopes for the lad. He has too much raw skill and athleticism not to bounce back from this minor setback.

 

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He needs a permanent team bad. I think it could’ve worked with Blackpool if he wasn’t banished from the lineup which wouldn’t have happened if he wasn’t on loan. He was so good to start the season. I think he somehow ended the season as one of Blackpool’s best scorers.

I’m really curious what goes into a move like the one he did with Bielefield. What is the point? They never had any intention to play him, I think yesterday was the first time he played more than like 15 minutes in a game, it just seems like they spent whatever you have to spend on a player on your team (good, training, transportation, etc) to what… make him run drills when you don’t even own the player and definitely won’t keep him? Unless Arminia owed Wolves a favour or something, I just don’t understand. Might as well have just kept him training with Wolves and maybe get a few garbage time apps but I don’t think he develops any more if he just rides the bench for the last 6 months instead of doing whatever it is he did on the pitch these past few months.

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I am pessimistic on Corbeanu like others on here are.  From my observations over the years, the 18 to 22 year period is a crucial development age.  Players who were exceptional at 18 but stall or go backwards by the time they are 21 or 22 rarely amount to anything significant. I struggle to think of anyone in the Canadian pool who has.  Many were out of football all together by their early to mid twenties (Belotte, Alderson, etc)

On the other hand, players at 17 or 18 who weren’t even on the radar or only projected to have an outside shot a pro career can develop quite quickly in that period like Buchanan, Johnston, for example and become stalwarts.

Of course, there are players like Davies and David who were exceptional at 18 and kept developing between 18 and 22 and now are exceptional established pro players. And another observation is that if someone is not exceptional at 18, they are very very unlikely to become a bona fide star (ie top 100-150 player worldwide) although they can have trajectories like Buchanan and Johnston.  Put another way, if you look at the current top 150 players globally, the vast majority would have been exceptional talents at 18. But if you look at exceptional players at 18 currently, there are probably more who will not play consistent football in a top 5 league than who will become top 150 players. 
 

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Not bad from @An Observer, I'd mostly agree. Especially about what happens to quality 18-year olds. Many unknown players at that age, from solid academies or clubs though, do find a way to go pro, get lucky with a club promoting, the second divisions of the great leagues are full of these players, who usually have great work ethics, fitness, mental fortitude, the classic pro journeymen.

But I also think the problem sometimes is when they come out of high-level academies, surrounded by quality that help you excel, and excel as an attacker as well.

You may not be able to carry that scoring threat into your adult years. If he were not in the front line it would not matter as much and he wouldn't be judged on stats.

I've seen elite kids having to go back a few divisions when leaving u-19 age. Also having to reconvert, which again, for attackers is the hardest. In fact, even Davies was pushed back away from the attack by his club, Tajon has been mostly, Liam Millar this year. Koleosho has not yet converted being an elite scoring threat playing u-19 at age 17, to being the same age 18 for a B team in Spanish 4th tier. Another who may have to reconvert. I've been pleasantly surprised that Tabla, for example, is still able to assist and score, another case, though the level is a lower than with the other cases.

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1 hour ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

Not bad from @An Observer, I'd mostly agree. Especially about what happens to quality 18-year olds. Many unknown players at that age, from solid academies or clubs though, do find a way to go pro, get lucky with a club promoting, the second divisions of the great leagues are full of these players, who usually have great work ethics, fitness, mental fortitude, the classic pro journeymen.

But I also think the problem sometimes is when they come out of high-level academies, surrounded by quality that help you excel, and excel as an attacker as well.

You may not be able to carry that scoring threat into your adult years. If he were not in the front line it would not matter as much and he wouldn't be judged on stats.

I've seen elite kids having to go back a few divisions when leaving u-19 age. Also having to reconvert, which again, for attackers is the hardest. In fact, even Davies was pushed back away from the attack by his club, Tajon has been mostly, Liam Millar this year. Koleosho has not yet converted being an elite scoring threat playing u-19 at age 17, to being the same age 18 for a B team in Spanish 4th tier. Another who may have to reconvert. I've been pleasantly surprised that Tabla, for example, is still able to assist and score, another case, though the level is a lower than with the other cases.

I do agree with most of what is written here, unfortunately, but here is my optimistic counterpoint...

  • Has 7 caps and 2 goals under his belt for Canada at 21
  • Is approaching 100 pro appearances at levels ranging from English League One to the Premier League (should get over 100 by end of next season)
  • Regardless of the scant goal contributions and minutes, he still made 12 appearances in the 2. Bundesliga at 21.
  • He is still attached to Wolves, an EPL side, so whatever level he settles at will be decent.

For me Corbeanu hasn't taken the step forward I wanted but going into this season we wanted to see him in the Championship, and we got that. He did decently well for a struggling team, even leading the division in dribbles at one point. That's as good as we could have hoped for going into it, I think. I personally saw the 2. Bundesliga move as a step down and thus expected a better output, and it seems I am not alone on that. On the other hand, this may have been a mistake on my part - Blackpool to Armenia Bielefeld is arguably a step up in stature, as the German club were just in the Bundesliga. The fact they struggled so much suggests everything was going wrong for them and it's probably hard to shine in that environment as a young Canadian arriving on loan halfway through the season.

So I will factor those things against Corbeanu's poor stats and give him the benefit of the doubt - just to be optimistic about his situation. At minimum he's still a top 3 prospect from the 2002 birth year - and his resume is at minimum the 3rd most impressive (Kone and Nelson would be the other two I am thinking about by the way)

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5 hours ago, Obinna said:

I do agree with most of what is written here, unfortunately, but here is my optimistic counterpoint...

  • Has 7 caps and 2 goals under his belt for Canada at 21
  • Is approaching 100 pro appearances at levels ranging from English League One to the Premier League (should get over 100 by end of next season)
  • Regardless of the scant goal contributions and minutes, he still made 12 appearances in the 2. Bundesliga at 21.
  • He is still attached to Wolves, an EPL side, so whatever level he settles at will be decent.

For me Corbeanu hasn't taken the step forward I wanted but going into this season we wanted to see him in the Championship, and we got that. He did decently well for a struggling team, even leading the division in dribbles at one point. That's as good as we could have hoped for going into it, I think. I personally saw the 2. Bundesliga move as a step down and thus expected a better output, and it seems I am not alone on that. On the other hand, this may have been a mistake on my part - Blackpool to Armenia Bielefeld is arguably a step up in stature, as the German club were just in the Bundesliga. The fact they struggled so much suggests everything was going wrong for them and it's probably hard to shine in that environment as a young Canadian arriving on loan halfway through the season.

So I will factor those things against Corbeanu's poor stats and give him the benefit of the doubt - just to be optimistic about his situation. At minimum he's still a top 3 prospect from the 2002 birth year - and his resume is at minimum the 3rd most impressive (Kone and Nelson would be the other two I am thinking about by the way)

I've always been overly optimistic with Corbeanu so I still have very high hopes and expectations, though if he has another year like this one, I'll start doubting. He's the worst type of player to loan out. Immensely talented but his biggest flaw is that he struggles to play in the context of a team system. If you have a guy like this on your roster, what's the point of developing him? Unless he's scoring a goal every game, there's nothing to gain from developing a guy who doesn't improve your other players, doesn't work in your system and even if you do teach him, another team reaps the benefits. I think he would've had a much longer grace period at Blackpool if he was their property, but as soon as his goals dried up what's he going to give your team? Not much. Still, 3 goals in 4 or 5 games to open the season in the championship I think? Not bad at all.

I have him above Nelson and honestly... not going to say he's better than Kone BUT with some of Kone's up and downs this year and many benchings, what would his season have looked like if he was at Watford on loan vs. a player of theirs? I think it might be closer than we think.

Edited by InglewoodJack
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I still think he is one of our top prospects but there is no doubt that he has struggled to live up to his hype.  Getting a Premier League appearance as a teenager and scoring on his debut for Canada helped the hype.  But the biggest concern to me is that he has had 4 loans in 2 seasons (a couple loans cut short) and seems to fall out of favour everywhere he goes despite showing glimpses of great skill.  I know Junior Hoilett was a "prized" player for us so perhaps the comparison isn't the greatest but Hoilett played 12 times before he even turned 18 in the 2nd half of the Bundesliga 2 season for Paderbon.  Before he turned 19, he completed his 2nd season in Bundesliga 2 for St. Pauli scoring 6 goals and providing 4 assists in 27 games.  By 21, he had 46 premier league games under his belt.  

I'd love to see him outright bought by someone in the League Championship.  A club that is invested in him and his growth as a player.  He's shown he can compete at that level already.  I also think he could contribute to a smaller club in a league such as Belgium, Netherlands or Portugal.  

Edited by Corazon
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14 minutes ago, Corazon said:

I still think he is one of our top prospects but there is no doubt that he has struggled to live up to his hype.  Getting a Premier League appearance as a teenager and scoring on his debut for Canada helped the hype.  But the biggest concern to me is that he has had 4 loans in 2 seasons (a couple loans cut short) and seems to fall out of favour everywhere he goes despite showing glimpses of great skill.  I know Junior Hoilett was a "prized" player for us so perhaps the comparison isn't the greatest but Hoilett played 12 times before he even turned 18 in the 2nd half of the Bundesliga 2 season for Paderbon.  Before he turned 18, he completed his 2nd season in Bundesliga 2 for St. Pauli scoring 6 goals and providing 4 assists in 27 games.  By 21, he had 46 premier league games under his belt.  

I'd love to see him outright bought by someone in the League Championship.  A club that is invested in him and his growth as a player.  He's shown he can compete at that level already.  I also think he could contribute to a smaller club in a league such as Belgium, Netherlands or Portugal.  

Can't argue with the Hoilett comparison. It's a good point.

But just to nit-pick a bit, I would like to point out that Hoilett had a weird career arch.

His best season actually came at the age of 21/22, when he scored 7 Premier League goals in 35 games for Blackburn. From there it has been (gradually) downhill: Relegated with QPR to the Championship, back up to the Prem the following season, relegated down to the Championship with QPR again, sideways move to Cardiff in the Championship, promotion with Cardiff, relegation with Cardiff, then in the Championship ever since. Some great moments for club (and country) in there, but overall, we cannot say he surpassed that 2011/12 season with Blackburn. 

Conversely, it feels like the best is yet to come from Corbeanu. I fully agree he hasn't lived up to the hype, but I'd like to think it'll eventually come together for him. I would also agree that a permanent move away from Wolves could be best. 

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6 minutes ago, Obinna said:

Can't argue with the Hoilett comparison. It's a good point.

But just to nit-pick a bit, I would like to point out that Hoilett had a weird career arch.

His best season actually came at the age of 21/22, when he scored 7 Premier League goals in 35 games for Blackburn. From there it has been (gradually) downhill: Relegated with QPR to the Championship, back up to the Prem the following season, relegated down to the Championship with QPR again, sideways move to Cardiff in the Championship, promotion with Cardiff, relegation with Cardiff, then in the Championship ever since. Some great moments for club (and country) in there, but overall, we cannot say he surpassed that 2011/12 season with Blackburn. 

Conversely, it feels like the best is yet to come from Corbeanu. I fully agree he hasn't lived up to the hype, but I'd like to think it'll eventually come together for him. I would also agree that a permanent move away from Wolves could be best. 

What happened to Hoilett? Was he a one season wonder at 21 or is there an explainable reason for his decline/ lack of continued development. 

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6 minutes ago, Bigandy said:

What happened to Hoilett? Was he a one season wonder at 21 or is there an explainable reason for his decline/ lack of continued development. 

It's the Canada curse. Most times when someone commits to us as a dual-nat their career declines.

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11 minutes ago, VinceA said:

It's the Canada curse. Most times when someone commits to us as a dual-nat their career declines.

Thats old canada. 

New canada has seen none of our lost dual nats go to the WC and guys like vitoria, staq, david, Kone are all on the rise. 

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19 minutes ago, Bigandy said:

What happened to Hoilett? Was he a one season wonder at 21 or is there an explainable reason for his decline/ lack of continued development. 

Hoilett was an immense talent, and, in many ways, you can still see it today. He's so tidy with the ball, great touch and technique, excellent shooting ability, etc. When he was with Blackburn though he had incredible pace that was married with all that technical ability. The result was scoring 7 Premier League goals for Blackburn, and generally being THE guy for his team that season.

His exploits obviously never went unnoticed, and it was QPR who he chose to sign for on a free (if I am not mistaken). I believe Blackburn got relegated that season despite his goals, and he could have signed a free for multiple EPL teams, but he chose to join a very ambitious QPR project. 

For context, QPR at the time had some very rich owners who had just taken control of the club and they were on a spending spree. They brought in so many top players and paid them all handsomely, Hoilett included. He was one of many new additions to QPR in their first EPL season in a while.

However, when you bring in so many new players at once it takes a long time to gel, even if the players you brought in have a lot of talent. That was the case with QPR, and they actually got relegated. On paper they should have finished at least upper half of the table and should have challenged for a European place, but it was just too much at once. 

To get to the heart of your question, I think it really hurt Hoilett going from being THE guy to one of several guys, on a team with other big players that had trouble gelling. He still scored 2 goals and played 26 games, pretty good for a 22/23-year-old, but getting relegated amidst such lofty expectations, then bouncing back up, then going down again, all while never getting to be THE guy? I think that stalled his development. Had he moved to another EPL side, one that was more modest, where he was still one of the main guys, he could have probably taken another step up to a bigger, more stable side. From there he would have kicked on, I think.

He's had a great career, obviously, but his resume could have looked like Blackburn-Sunderland-Spurs (just as an example) instead of Blackburn-QPR-Cardiff...etc. 

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@Bigandy Oh and another thing - Hoilett is a true national team great at this point - but at his peak (22ish) he was non-committal to Canada and there was some indication he could qualify to play for England. It turned out he couldn't, but that was the level Hoilett was at during those days. Had he been English he could probably have been one of those young up-and-coming players standing out for a bottom EPL team that England would bring in to see what they have.

The cover story was always that he was focusing on his club career and once the English eligibility question became clear he spent another few years on the fence due to his Jamaican eligibility, but ultimately at 25 he chose to rep Canada.  

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49 minutes ago, Obinna said:

Can't argue with the Hoilett comparison. It's a good point.

But just to nit-pick a bit, I would like to point out that Hoilett had a weird career arch.

His best season actually came at the age of 21/22, when he scored 7 Premier League goals in 35 games for Blackburn. From there it has been (gradually) downhill: Relegated with QPR to the Championship, back up to the Prem the following season, relegated down to the Championship with QPR again, sideways move to Cardiff in the Championship, promotion with Cardiff, relegation with Cardiff, then in the Championship ever since. Some great moments for club (and country) in there, but overall, we cannot say he surpassed that 2011/12 season with Blackburn. 

Conversely, it feels like the best is yet to come from Corbeanu. I fully agree he hasn't lived up to the hype, but I'd like to think it'll eventually come together for him. I would also agree that a permanent move away from Wolves could be best. 

We haven't had a player play in the Premier league since Corbeanu two seasons ago and it was a meaningless end of season game.  Hopefully this changes this summer with David and perhaps a surprise or two. 

But the last Canadian to play in Premier League before Corbeanu was:

Hoilett - 2018/19 (32 games). 

In fact, since Hoilett's Premier League debut in 2009:

Canadian English Premier League Games Played:

Hoilett - 161 games across 6 Premier League Seasons

Arfield - 86 games across 3 Premier League Seasons

Jackson - 35 games across 2 Premier League Seasons

Corbeanu - 1 game

You can call Hoillett's career whatever you want but I consider 6 Premier League Seasons & 8 League Championship Seasons an incredible career for a Canadian player.  Add in two successful loan spells to German B2 before the age of 19 as well.  Aside from his half season at Paderbon when he was 17, he has played minimum 20 league games in every other of his 13 seasons.  Has been a starter or contributor on every team he has played for.

Long story short, I'd be thrilled if Corbeanu had a career even remotely close to Hoilett's.  And yes, I do know it is far harder to break into the Premier League now than it was in 2009/10 and even compared to 2018/19.

 

 

Edited by Corazon
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41 minutes ago, VinceA said:

It's the Canada curse. Most times when someone commits to us as a dual-nat their career declines.

I think the decline is why they commit to us, if anything. That's why I never like the "just wait a few years and so and so will commit to us eventually" because what that actually means is, just wait until this guy (Jebbison/Costa/Sigur/Farsi/etc.) falls short of his potential, then we got him in the bag!!

Luckily, most of the last few guys who have committed elsewhere didn't seem to do much of anything with their new country either though.

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