Future Champions League & CONCACAF League format

[Kent]

19 hours ago, narduch said:

Apparently only 4 Carribean nations have "professional" leagues and they are the only nations that take part in the club competitions: Jamaica, Haiti, Dominican Republic and T&T. T&T didn't take part recently because they were banned.

I don’t really know anything about it, but it sounded wrong to me that there are only those 4 Nations represented. For example, Suriname has had teams in CONCACAF competitions. So I looked it up and there’s is another competition and it is used as part of qualifying as well.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2019_Caribbean_Club_Shield

I am not going to bother checking if it includes all the nations that Shway included, but it looks about the same scale.

[Zem]

2 hours ago, Kent said:

I don’t really know anything about it, but it sounded wrong to me that there are only those 4 Nations represented. For example, Suriname has had teams in CONCACAF competitions. So I looked it up and there’s is another competition and it is used as part of qualifying as well.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2019_Caribbean_Club_Shield

I am not going to bother checking if it includes all the nations that Shway included, but it looks about the same scale.

The Caribbean Club Championship is open only to nations whose top division meets CONCACAF's critirea for professionalism and grants two spots to each nation, with the winner qualifying for Champions League and the next two finishers qualifying for CONCACAF League. The fourth-placed finisher goes to a play-off with the winner of the Caribbean Club Shield for the third and final spot in CONCACAF League.

The Club Shield is open to any and all other CFU members, who each get one spot, and only the winner gets a chance to play in CONCACAF League. The format is like this for financial reasons (both competitions are played as single-site tournaments) and to help encourage professionalism, while ensuring that club continental play is accessible to all nations in the confederation.

[Shway]

On 12/5/2020 at 1:04 PM, Zem said:

The Caribbean Club Championship is open only to nations whose top division meets CONCACAF's critirea for professionalism and grants two spots to each nation, with the winner qualifying for Champions League and the next two finishers qualifying for CONCACAF League. The fourth-placed finisher goes to a play-off with the winner of the Caribbean Club Shield for the third and final spot in CONCACAF League.

The Club Shield is open to any and all other CFU members, who each get one spot, and only the winner gets a chance to play in CONCACAF League. The format is like this for financial reasons (both competitions are played as single-site tournaments) and to help encourage professionalism, while ensuring that club continental play is accessible to all nations in the confederation.

Within the past 5 years, we have seen Caribbean teams in play in multiple tournaments...

Concacaf Champions League:
Belize, Guyana, Puerto Rico, T&T. Jamaica, and Haiti

Concacaf League (launched 2017):
Jamaica, Haiti, T&T, Belize

CFU Club Championships:
Jamaica, Haiti, T&T, Bermuda, Cayman Islands, Montserrat, Guadeloupe, Suriname, U.S. Virgin Islands, Bahamas, Antigua, Sint Maarten, 

CFU Club Shield (launched in 2018):
Antigua, Aruba, Barbados, Bonaire, Cayman Islands, Cuba, Curacao, Guadeloupe, Martinique, Saint Kitts, Saint Lucia, Saint Vincent, Suriname

My question is:
1. When did Concacafs criteria for professionalism get established, and what does it really entail? Because as you can see there is some inconsistencies with the involvement of clubs from certain countries.
2. Why are there so many competitions that are governed by Concacaf that end up into two competitions.

One thing I don't understand is how there is a federation (CFU) within a federation (Concacaf) that has multiple tournaments. To me it's either CFU become it's own federation or regional competitions are stopped. Because we don't see NAFU or UNCAF club competitions.

My thinking with the format I suggested was to reduce that amount of tournaments that are administered by Concacaf to two (CCL and CL) by getting rid of the Caribbean competitions that essentially stretches the overall funds. 

Well what happens to them? They are given slots to the CCL or CL in the preliminary stages. A chance in a knockout format that gives them a chance to showcase themselves against the entire region vs a handful. 

 

Edited December 7, 2020 by Shway

[narduch]

Belize is a Central American country.

 

[Shway]

11 minutes ago, narduch said:

Belize is a Central American country.

 

Yea i know...was trying to make reference to the smaller nations...should've mentioned that. 

[narduch]

Looking at the last Caribbean Club Shield, 12 nations didn't even participate:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2020_Caribbean_Club_Shield

[Trois Reds]

It would make sense that some don't send teams to the CCC. We're talking about a group of 30 Caribbean countries each without a professional league.  Most of these islands federation's need CONCACAF's help to afford to play in the Nation's League and WC qualifying.  Their amateur clubs definitely couldn't pay for a trip to another island for a two week competition, since their players probably all have regular jobs at home.

[CanadianSoccerFan]

 

[Ansem]

21 minutes ago, CanadianSoccerFan said:

 

More Continental rivalries

"Canadian clubs vs MLS vs Liga MX vs Honduras"

I like that!

[Watchmen]

4 hours ago, CanadianSoccerFan said:

 

Mentions more games but not more teams.  Wonder if they're trying to bring back the group stage.

[Kent]

5 hours ago, Watchmen said:

Mentions more games but not more teams.  Wonder if they're trying to bring back the group stage.

I hope so! I miss the group stage. So anti-climactic for teams that go out in the first round after only getting to play against one team.

[CanadianSoccerFan]

It might be more interesting if they go down the route UEFA is considering where instead of "groups", they put everyone in a single table and draw for fixtures.  It would work like the Nations League qualifiers from 2018.

I did like the ambition of the group stage when it was first started in 2008 but in practice it was a disaster.  This doesn't get publicized much but the early years of the CCL group stage resembled the old CSL with the level of match fixing going on. There were so many dead rubbers and mismatches that it got out of control quickly.  El Salvador were the worst culprits and a lot players got lifetime bans but it was much bigger than that.  A lot of it is covered in this book.

https://www.amazon.ca/Kelong-Kings-Confessions-prolific-match-fixer-ebook/dp/B00JXW7C7U

 

[CanadianSoccerFan]

Rumours that Mexican clubs will return to Libertadores

https://www.mediotiempo.com/futbol/copa-libertadores/mexico-vuelta-copa-libertadores-plan-regreso

[Kent]

21 hours ago, CanadianSoccerFan said:

It might be more interesting if they go down the route UEFA is considering where instead of "groups", they put everyone in a single table and draw for fixtures.  It would work like the Nations League qualifiers from 2018.

I did like the ambition of the group stage when it was first started in 2008 but in practice it was a disaster.  This doesn't get publicized much but the early years of the CCL group stage resembled the old CSL with the level of match fixing going on. There were so many dead rubbers and mismatches that it got out of control quickly.  El Salvador were the worst culprits and a lot players got lifetime bans but it was much bigger than that.  A lot of it is covered in this book.

https://www.amazon.ca/Kelong-Kings-Confessions-prolific-match-fixer-ebook/dp/B00JXW7C7U

 

Thanks. I do wish for a group stage again, but didn’t know about the match fixing. Haven’t heard of this book, but I did read The Fix. Was it really CCL games that got those Salvadorans banned? I don’t remember the details.

[SpursFlu]

4 hours ago, Kent said:

Thanks. I do wish for a group stage again, but didn’t know about the match fixing. Haven’t heard of this book, but I did read The Fix. Was it really CCL games that got those Salvadorans banned? I don’t remember the details.

I think it was a national team game against the US. I think they lost like 8-0.and it was determined they threw the game for gambling purposes. I could be wrong but I think it was something like that

[CanadianSoccerFan]

15 hours ago, Kent said:

Thanks. I do wish for a group stage again, but didn’t know about the match fixing. Haven’t heard of this book, but I did read The Fix. Was it really CCL games that got those Salvadorans banned? I don’t remember the details.

The national team games are what was publicly disclosed in the press but they were fixing CCL games as well.   The most infamous national team game was this game from the 2011 Gold Cup.  

Unlike Declan Hill's book, this book is a memoir of convicted match fixer Wilson Raj Perumal that came out 6 years ago.  He was part of the fixing syndicate of Dan Tan operating out of Singapore.  He went around the world fixing games at the Olympics, AFCON, world cup qualifiers, and even the  infamous fake national team match involving  a Sierra Leone team of hired mercenaries.  He details how he fixed everything blow by blow but the most interesting is all of the CONCACAF stuff.  He fixed CCL, Gold Cup, and World Cup Qualifiers.  The stories from fixing the Gold Cup were particularly enlightening.  Cuba, Nicaragua, El Salvador, Grenada, and Haiti were all fixing.  The Grenada side included a few British based players who took what they learned and tried to make their own fixing career back in England.  One of them (Delroy Facey) was busted and went to prison.

There's a movie adaptation in the works.

 

 

 

Edited December 25, 2020 by CanadianSoccerFan

[SpursFlu]

https://www.google.ca/amp/s/www.si.com/.amp/soccer/2020/12/24/concacaf-champions-league-future-format-expansion-group-stage-ccl

Came across this. Im not sure if it's speculation but it seems that its based on some kinda information. A larger competition split in to 3 groups NA, Central America & Caribbean. Group play that feeds in to a 16 team knockout stage. Mexico would be in the North American group. Interesting 

[Kent]

20 hours ago, SpursFlu said:

https://www.google.ca/amp/s/www.si.com/.amp/soccer/2020/12/24/concacaf-champions-league-future-format-expansion-group-stage-ccl

Came across this. Im not sure if it's speculation but it seems that its based on some kinda information. A larger competition split in to 3 groups NA, Central America & Caribbean. Group play that feeds in to a 16 team knockout stage. Mexico would be in the North American group. Interesting 

Ugh, I hope they don’t do those geographic groupings. I was glad when the Gold Cup went away from that for qualification.

[Watchmen]

It sounds very much like CONCACAF trying to undermine the Campeones and Leagues Cup.

[Kent]

4 hours ago, Watchmen said:

It sounds very much like CONCACAF trying to undermine the Campeones and Leagues Cup.

They don’t have to undermine those friendlies. They are meaningless. Everyone should be ignoring them in my opinion.

[SpursFlu]

I think you could tweak the numbers of how many come out of each region. But 4 groups of 4 NA. 3 groups of 4 CA. 2 groups of 4 Caribbean.  that would be exciting for those pockets as it would definitely create a lot of heated matches. 16 North America would likely be like 7 Mexico, 6 US, 3 Canada or something 

[Watchmen]

47 minutes ago, Kent said:

They don’t have to undermine those friendlies. They are meaningless. Everyone should be ignoring them in my opinion.

I don't disagree.  But unfortunately, MLS (more than Liga MX, imo) cares about the Campeones and Leagues Cup because they control the rights to them and too many fans do care.  Hence why this format makes some sense (even though I don't really like it) - it creates more actually meaningful games between MLS and Liga MX, and keeps them in the domain of being CONCACAF controlled.

[Kent]

On 12/25/2020 at 1:27 AM, SpursFlu said:

https://www.google.ca/amp/s/www.si.com/.amp/soccer/2020/12/24/concacaf-champions-league-future-format-expansion-group-stage-ccl

Came across this. Im not sure if it's speculation but it seems that its based on some kinda information. A larger competition split in to 3 groups NA, Central America & Caribbean. Group play that feeds in to a 16 team knockout stage. Mexico would be in the North American group. Interesting 

I finally actually read the article. For whatever reason I was reminded of the oct/repechage World Cup Qualifying format and thought they will probably do something like have some USA/Mexico groups and then the Central Americans and Caribbean teams would battle in their groups with the top team playing against the third place MLS/Mexican club in the third place game.

[Ansem]

I like the idea

Example for berths

 

NAFU : North American Football Union

Mexico (6)

-Best team of each Apertura & Clausura seasons (2)

-Finalist of each finals (4)

USA (6)

-MLS Cup Finalist (2)

-MLS Supporters Shield (1)

-Conference Champions (2)

-US Open or Best 6th overall in MLS (1)

Canada (4)

-Canadian Championship (1)

-CPL Finalists (2)

-CPL regular season winner (1)

 

CAFU : Central American Football Union 

• Costa Rica (3)
• Honduras (3)
• Panama (2)
• El Salvador (2)
• Guatemala (1)
• Nicaragua (1)

 

CFU : Caribbean Football Union 

1. Current Caribbean Club Championship (21 teams) could be integrated into CCL as the CFU Group stage
2. Caribbean Club Shield (13 teams) could serve a CCC qualifiers and/or seeding to CONCACAF League if it stays.

 

FIFA WCQ format for CCL knockout stage

 

Example

 

North American region

• 4 groups of 4
• Best 2 teams advance to knockout stage (8)

Central American region

• 3 groups of 4
• Best 2 teams advance to knockout stage (6)

Caribbean region

• Final 2 advance to knockout stage (2)

 

CONCACAF League future

Personally, I hope it stays to allow the leagues mid table teams to have a competition to play for. They could use the same format as above.

 

Belize champions should be here, I don't think they belong in CCL

 

Compromises

Liga MX and MLS will be expected to make compromises. If there is schedule congestion due to their League Cup and Campeones game, this should be solely on the leagues - not for CONCACAF to accommodate them.

 

Pros

I think this format is interesting and gives everyone what they want.

 

-North America gets a group stage keeping everyone interested without losing fans with Central American & Caribbean matches.  

 

-Kills the Super League, potentially the League Cup and Campeones 

 

-Central America more clubs which is 100% totally deserved

 

-Upgrading the Caribbean Club Championship into the Champions League is a great win for that region. This brings more spotlights on them without diluting the rest of the competition. 

 

-Better préparation for the expanded Club World Cup where this region has done poorly.

Edited December 27, 2020 by Ansem

[SpursFlu]

Yah I actually think from a central America perspective the more the merrier. Why not 4 groups of  4? Keeps the same schedule from a match day perspective. There are already 14 teams in the Concacaf League

Edited December 27, 2020 by SpursFlu