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Canada vs Iceland - Jan 15th (Camp Poutine Match #3)

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17 hours ago, costarg said:

I'd still rather give the depth a runout vs the minnows and reserve the decent opposition for our starters.

I understand your point of view from the perspective of risking FIFA ranking points.  On the other hand, what have you really learned if Brym and Bassong do well vs Barbados?  Can you extrapolate that they would do well against a stronger opponent ranked in the 30s - 50s?  Conversely, (despite the crappy fact of us dropping points, and undeservedly so I think) running out Brym and Bassong vs Iceland and learning that they can do okay against that level is very helpful to know.  It surely means that they would do okay against lesser opposition, and it suggests they are ready to be trusted if need be to come in when in counts.  For example, in a full international now when you already have Cavallini, David and Larin as your first choices up top, do you bring in Akindele or Brym as a hypothetical fourth choice?  They offer different things to be sure.  Akindele definitely worked hard pressing and off the ball, but his finishing didn't inspire confidence, whereas Brym offered more direct attack, energy and verve.  A week ago, most would have chosen Akindele over Brym.  Today, I think it's a more difficult choice, and the kind of difficult choice that we all say it's good to have.

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1 hour ago, Corazon said:

I agree.  I believe it comes down to having to play with what we had. 

I think our biggest problem was generating offense through the center of the pitch.  Almost everything generated came from out wide.  Swinging crosses into Ricketts isn't going to be much of a threat.  Both Ricketts & Akindele were our attacking options centrally along with Osorio but both are better in open field and space.  Given our possession in their final 3rd in the second half, those two didn't have much opportunity to utilize their strengths.  Neither are particularly strong at holding the ball up and creating plays off them and therefore Osorio and the midfield wasn't able to work well off of them.  This is where we truly missed our attacking players.  

We are at an interesting point where we have enough depth to roll out a good B side, but not enough depth to roll out a B side with the type of players we want.

Before we couldn't even roll out a good B side, so we have come a long way. We still have a ways to go though...

Ricketts and Akindele, for example, were part of our A team a few years ago. Now they are part of our B team, but that is not because those two have gotten worse. If anything they have gotten better, but we have just added so many creative attacking players of higher quality in recent years.

Thing is, although Ricketts and Akindele are decent enough, our attack becomes far less creative with both of them on the field at the same time.

David and Davies will likely be the main attacking stars for the foreseeable future, but my hope is that our young creative attackers such as Tabla and Nelsen can realize their full potential.

Here is what I want to see for January 2021:

Tabla and Nelsen come into next year's camp poutine after terrorizing MLS, each reaching double-digit goals and assists during the 2020 season - flanked by one of Akindele or Ricketts playing up the middle for Canada. 

That's where we need to get.

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But there is a big difference between 19-21 pro to an 17 year old kid who hasn’t even been called up to 1st team and he plays in the 3rd division of USL. 
 

Brym and Bassong are pros in Europe, just because Nelson played well at U17 tourney and won a youth award. I’m sorry it’s apples to oranges here. Davies was 16 played with the main club before he came to the Sr team he played against England u20 team and other youth teams before getting called up to the Sr team. Nelson has not done that. The kids got talent but let’s get real here. He’s 17 year old kid and Herdman and the CSA are trying to catch lighting in a bottle again like Davies and David. Why because they can say the system is working and we are the heros bla bla bla. I’m sorry we needed the points and it was a must win and he threw out a CPL player and a 17 year old kid. It just shows how inexperience Herdman is and it gonna cost us the qualifying for the World Cup ! This is not the woman’s game. 

Edited by SpecialK

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I dont understand the complaining about Nelsen??  Do you think he played bad? To me it was Tesho and Rickets that didnt produce much, Nelsen looked lively when he came on.  If not Nelsen, it would have been Borges or Shafflebourg.  And I think you need to trust the coaching staff a little, they have been watching them train together for an entire camp.  And they thought Nelsen was the guy to get some offense going.    

Bair could have come on earlier for Rickets, maybe the fresh legs would have sparked something.  But poaching a goal against even a Iceland B team was always going to be tough. Not a good result, not what we hoped for, but its not surprising.  

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36 minutes ago, SpecialK said:

But there is a big difference between 19-21 pro to an 17 year old kid who hasn’t even been called up to 1st team and he plays in the 3rd division of USL. 
 

Brym and Bassong are pros in Europe, just because Nelson played well at U17 tourney and won a youth award. I’m sorry it’s apples to oranges here. Davies was 16 played with the main club before he came to the Sr team he played against England u20 team and other youth teams before getting called up to the Sr team. Nelson has not done that. The kids got talent but let’s get real here. He’s 17 year old kid and Herdman and the CSA are trying to catch lighting in a bottle again like Davies and David. Why because they can say the system is working and we are the heros bla bla bla. I’m sorry we needed the points and it was a must win and he threw out a CPL player and a 17 year old kid. It just shows how inexperience Herdman is and it gonna cost us the qualifying for the World Cup ! This is not the woman’s game. 

This was one game with a B side that was going to be experimental.  Nelson was on for how long?  Everyone on that bench was pretty green.   If we don't qualify (which is at best 20% anyways), that will because mistakes will have been made before this game and during qualifying and not in this one friendly which was meant to show what depth we had.  Herdman is not going anywhere.

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No I don’t have trust. They messed up the Mexico, Haiti , 2nd USA game and with Iceland the subs came in super late. It’s not Nelson that’s the issue main issue, the issue is that there was mls/pros left off the team issue one , issue 2 is that we are down a goal and we need a goal and he throws out a kid who has never played against real pro/men before in hope he’s as talented as Davies was at 17. We’ll I’m sorry I don’t see it. If he was he would be with TFC already. It was a gamble on herdman part, too me that shows how inexperience he is

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22 minutes ago, SpecialK said:

You had Chapman, Borges and  Tiebert there , those players are not green. 

And how do you know any of them would have done any better?  Nelson is unpredictable, the others are decent players but not as quick either.  I would have been bothered if Herdman hadn't rolled the dice in that situation.   

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43 minutes ago, SpecialK said:

You had Chapman, Borges and  Tiebert there , those players are not green. 


Fact check:

Actually, It turns out that Chapman left the squad after the second Barbados match and that Teibert was not even on the bench last night for whatever reason (injury, illness etc.) so how about we all understand which players were even dressed before the collective “we” calls for someone to start or come off the bench in a particular setting. General comment just saying. 
 

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3 minutes ago, soccer.shocker said:


Fact check:

Actually, It turns out that Chapman left the squad after the second Barbados match and that Teibert was not even on the bench last night for whatever reason (injury, illness etc.) so how about we all understand which players were even dressed before the collective “we” calls for someone to start or come off the bench in a particular setting. General comment just saying. 
 

Well that changes things. I wonder why though they were listed available. 
 

do we know if other players like Hamilton, Edwards etc were available ? Because I know some weren’t released or injured. 

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20 minutes ago, soccer.shocker said:


Fact check:

Actually, It turns out that Chapman left the squad after the second Barbados match and that Teibert was not even on the bench last night for whatever reason (injury, illness etc.) so how about we all understand which players were even dressed before the collective “we” calls for someone to start or come off the bench in a particular setting. General comment just saying. 
 

You never know the back story regarding potential injury problems which inevitably arise in an off season camp.  

 

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Ahh Mr K....Now you are complaining just for the sake of it.  Tiebert would have magically broken down Iceland??  Did you really think if we had Hamilton in camp instead of...oh i dont know... Nelsen,  we would have beaten Iceland?  Now I like Teibert and hamilton, but Nelsen has pace and some trickiness and I have no problem with him coming on. 

Not using the other subs is something harder to explain.  

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1 hour ago, SpecialK said:

You had Chapman, Borges and  Tiebert there , those players are not green. 

Borges is not green? His grand total of professional experience is 25 CPL games and a handful of Cup games.

1 hour ago, SpecialK said:

It’s not Nelson that’s the issue main issue, the issue is that there was mls/pros left off the team issue one , issue 2 is that we are down a goal and we need a goal and he throws out a kid who has never played against real pro/men before in hope he’s as talented as Davies was at 17. We’ll I’m sorry I don’t see it. If he was he would be with TFC already. 

You literally made this up.

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34 minutes ago, SpecialK said:

do we know if other players like Hamilton, Edwards etc were available ? Because I know some weren’t released or injured. 

Perhaps Hamilton and Edwards were available and just didn't make the cut....

I am not very convinced of your wild theories that Herdman thinks Nelsen is the next coming of Alphonso Davies. I think he was just looking for talented players that could help the senior team and if they are available for the U-23 team, all the better. Borges also falls into that category, btw. 

It would be kind of short sighted not to use this camp to bring in U23 players. If Herdman selected Edwards people would be criticizing him for wasting a spot on an overager.

There is always something to complain about with some people...

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I don't completely disagree with @SpecialK on a lot of this, Nelson was ok, he's not why we lost and I look forward to seeing him progress, I would have rather seen Borges come into the match, the Nelson love by Herdman reminds me of Frank Yallop's love for a 16 year old Jamie Peters!

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3 hours ago, gator said:

the Nelson love by Herdman reminds me of Frank Yallop's love for a 16 year old Jamie Peters!

Hardly the same thing. Peters was playing regularly in World Cup qualifiers whereas Nelson was a late sub in a few B camp friendlies that are only deemed important because of the ridiculous qualifying format.

Peters' first-ever full MNT game was a crucial World Cup qualifier against Guatemala. In fact, his first five MNT matches were all in that WCQ cycle.

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15 minutes ago, RS said:

Hardly the same thing. Peters was playing regularly in World Cup qualifiers whereas Nelson was a late sub in a few B camp friendlies that are only deemed important because of the ridiculous qualifying format.

Peters' first-ever full MNT game was a crucial World Cup qualifier against Guatemala. In fact, his first five MNT matches were all in that WCQ cycle.

Peters first impressed in the B-friendlies against Hearts and Milwall (I can't remember the English team, I think it's them, but recall Simpson and Serioux signing with them shortly after). It's not that crazy of a comparison.

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4 minutes ago, Blackdude said:

 

Peters first impressed in the B-friendlies against Hearts and Milwall (I can't remember the English team, I think it's them, but recall Simpson and Serioux signing with them shortly after). It's not that crazy of a comparison.

It was Millwall.

Regardless, I don't think @gator was referring to those matches when he mentioned Yallop's love for Peters.

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I can't help but think we could've got the win if Kaye and Cav were available (Healthy) to play 😓. All things considered when you factor in only Osorio, Miller, and Laryea can be considered our true #1 starters for us we actually did really well and we weren't dominated. 

I understand Iceland didn't have their full team either but i'd like to think if they get their best 11 and we get ours we can actually compete. 

 

I know we likely won't make the Hex. at this point or at least, it'll be very difficult, but I feel really optimistic about our chances going through the B Tournament as well if that's what we're forced to do. 

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9 hours ago, RS said:

Hardly the same thing. Peters was playing regularly in World Cup qualifiers whereas Nelson was a late sub in a few B camp friendlies that are only deemed important because of the ridiculous qualifying format.

Peters' first-ever full MNT game was a crucial World Cup qualifier against Guatemala. In fact, his first five MNT matches were all in that WCQ cycle.

Time will tell on this one Rudi!

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1 hour ago, TFC2017 said:

I can't help but think we could've got the win if Kaye and Cav were available (Healthy) to play 😓. All things considered when you factor in only Osorio, Miller, and Laryea can be considered our true #1 starters for us we actually did really well and we weren't dominated. 

I understand Iceland didn't have their full team either but i'd like to think if they get their best 11 and we get ours we can actually compete. 

 

I know we likely won't make the Hex. at this point or at least, it'll be very difficult, but I feel really optimistic about our chances going through the B Tournament as well if that's what we're forced to do. 

Technically, Piette is considered a starter as well.  

 

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Speaking of all this Jamie Peters talk, you know what made me feel really dumb/old? During the game the commentator said that Nelson became the second youngest scorer for Canada and I thought to myself "Ah yes, 16 year old Jamie Peters is the youngest ever scorer" and then the commentator said "Of course, Alphonso Davies is the youngest scorer..."

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8 hours ago, TFC2017 said:

I know we likely won't make the Hex. at this point or at least, it'll be very difficult, but I feel really optimistic about our chances going through the B Tournament as well if that's what we're forced to do. 

I still think the B tournament is the easier path.

I'd prefer to play in the Hexagonal because of the experience but do we have a higher chance of being beaten by Mexico & USA & Costa Reeka (which puts us at best 4th or at worst eliminated outright) or by one team from a bigger group of teams who are mostly much worse than us although a couple are comparable?

Always underdogs in the former, never underdogs in the latter. Then, for both paths, the two play off hurdles loom.

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9 minutes ago, Lofty said:

I still think the B tournament is the easier path.

I'd prefer to play in the Hexagonal because of the experience but do we have a higher chance of being beaten by Mexico & USA & Costa Reeka (which puts us at best 4th or at worst eliminated outright) or by one team from a bigger group of teams who are mostly much worse than us although a couple are comparable?

Always underdogs in the former, never underdogs in the latter. Then, for both paths, the two play off hurdles loom.

I can make my peace with the low road route to qualification. The gradual rise in difficulty in opposition gives it a bit of a Grand Slam tennis tourney feel, assuming that CONCACAF doesn't compound their massive **** up in designing this qualification process in the first place by failing to seed teams through each subsequent round of the B route. If the CSA can break form by scheduling tough friendlies at every available opportunity interspersed through the qualification campaign, we could actually arrive at the climax (the playoffs) better prepared, as a young, developing team, than we would through the hex.

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We will also be going to some exotic places and our young players will probably continue to get a ton of hype as they pad their stats at the international level.  So it's a good thing I think and ultimately at the end, when we finish 1st, we're going to be playing a Hex team.

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