Vancouver Whitecaps 2020 Season

[Obinna]

20 hours ago, jonovision said:

What a disgusting display from Montero in his interaction with Camacho. Stands over and taunts an injured player and goes down like he's been shot after getting flicked in the knee. Obviously Camacho deserved red but you'd think Montero could face a fine for that sort of simulation.

I also wonder whether incidents like those that occur in the penalty area should be punished by giving a penalty. It has nothing to do with removing a scoring chance. You wouldn't give a penalty for dissent if the argument occurred in the penalty area.

That said, 'Caps looked decent. Kept it level 11 on 11, then took advantage when up a man. Veselinovic doesn't look as good as he did in Orlando but Cornelius and Gutierrez look solid at the back.

I hate simulation just as much as the next guy, but I kinda disagree in this case.

Camacho clearly violates the rules of the game, but Montero going down (like he got shot) brings it to the attention of the officials. If he doesn't react perhaps it goes unnoticed and unpunished. Therefore, I don't have a problem with it in this case, even though it is still cringe.

[Watchmen]

Yordy Reyna sold to DC for $400k in GAM.

https://www.whitecapsfc.com/post/2020/09/19/vwfc-acquire-allocation-money-for-reyna

[BearcatSA]

2 hours ago, Watchmen said:

Yordy Reyna sold to DC for $400k in GAM.

https://www.whitecapsfc.com/post/2020/09/19/vwfc-acquire-allocation-money-for-reyna

Good move by Schuster.  

[toontownman]

Genuinely delighted with this. I am sure he might do well at DC but it wasn't happening here and he was a disruptive influence. Adnan out next please.

Pissed MDS is saying no new recruits. I assume they are saving up for Messi or Ronaldo given the money they are just stockpiling. 

So much work to do with the team. Essentially need a whole new midfield, RB and CB. Nerwinski is a great backup but liability. Cornelius is the only CB that isn't consistently a liability. Malinkovic is exactly what you would expect from a championship reject and freebie. Delighted for his goal as he truly seems like he wants to be there playing for Vancouver and has skills. You can see why he is where he is though. Owusu, Bikel and Rose are all great reserve squad players that shouldnt be starting. Teibert looks rustier than ever. 

On the upside no incomings means no Bekker who is the answer to a question no one asked. I hope he stays put and continues to help build something at forge. After all you wont get concacaf football at the caps.

Baldisimo and Gutierez (who the left back spot should be his own now) were two highlights today, along with the Cavallini/montero partnership preview. 

Money simply has to be spent on the pitch though. Not bargain bin, diamonds in the rough but real DP players. The side could be transformed with 4/5 players. I just feel we will get more excuses and tire kicking and no progress. Now, especially after a couple of wins, would be a huge chance to bring someone in that would lift fans, the squad, show some intent and push the team a bit further forward. While I am happy with the Reyna exit there will be lots of people upset another playmaker and potential game changer leaves and isn't replaced. They have to bring someone in..surely!

All that negativity and bitching aside congrats to them all tonight!

 

Edited September 20, 2020 by toontownman
More moaning, bitching and whining.

[SthMelbRed]

32 minutes ago, toontownman said:

Genuinely delighted with this. I am sure he might do well at DC but it wasn't happening here and he was a disruptive influence. Adnan out next please.

Pissed MDS is saying no new recruits. I assume they are saving up for Messi or Ronaldo given the money they are just stockpiling. 

So much work to do with the team. Essentially need a whole new midfield, RB and CB. Nerwinski is a great backup but liability. Cornelius is the only CB that isn't consistently a liability. Malinkovic is exactly what you would expect from a championship reject and freebie. Delighted for his goal as he truly seems like he wants to be there playing for Vancouver and has skills. You can see why he is where he is though. Owusu, Bikel and Rose are all great reserve squad players that shouldnt be starting. Teibert looks rustier than ever. 

On the upside no incomings means no Bekker who is the answer to a question no one asked. I hope he stays put and continues to help build something at forge. After all you wont get concacaf football at the caps.

Baldisimo and Gutierez (who the left back spot should be his own now) were two highlights today, along with the Cavallini/montero partnership preview. 

Money simply has to be spent on the pitch though. Not bargain bin, diamonds in the rough but real DP players. The side could be transformed with 4/5 players. I just feel we will get more excuses and tire kicking and no progress. Now, especially after a couple of wins, would be a huge chance to bring someone in that would lift fans, the squad, show some intent and push the team a bit further forward. While I am happy with the Reyna exit there will be lots of people upset another playmaker and potential game changer leaves and isn't replaced. They have to bring someone in..surely!

All that negativity and ******** aside congrats to them all tonight!

 

Like you, I'm happy to see the back of Reyna, and think Adnan should follow. However, I'm not overly bothered if nobody new is brought in at this point, as long as Schuster is actively working on a near-complete overhaul of every import spot for 2021. I like the current crew of Canadians, but they should bin off most of the rest. They aren't bringing enough to the team to warrant keeping. The Whitecaps aren't going to win any trophies this year, and there are no paying fans to be assuaged by shiny, new recruits. Therefore, MDS, if he's kept, and Schuster have the luxury of a bit of time to find the right players.

[toontownman]

Completely agree...except we have heard it all before. Realignments, shuffling the structure of the club and office. Schuster does however have to get his house in order and they hired him to do this his way. I do get that but fuck it has got old hearing it and nothing transpiring. Here is forever hoping!

[SthMelbRed]

40 minutes ago, toontownman said:

Completely agree...except we have heard it all before. Realignments, shuffling the structure of the club and office. Schuster does however have to get his house in order and they hired him to do this his way. I do get that but **** it has got old hearing it and nothing transpiring. Here is forever hoping!

At this point in time, I'll be happy enough with a lovely yellow and blue away shirt next year, modelled on the best '86ers shirt. They can market it as a 35th anniversary special. A contending team and the progression of the young, Canadian players, too, I guess. LOL

[RS]

Right now I still think the Whitecaps have a severe talent disadvantage vs. most MLS teams, but the attacking duo of Montero and Cavallini could be good enough to keep them in games (if MDS utilizes them together more often going forward).

[BearcatSA]

2 hours ago, RS said:

Right now I still think the Whitecaps have a severe talent disadvantage vs. most MLS teams, but the attacking duo of Montero and Cavallini could be good enough to keep them in games (if MDS utilizes them together more often going forward).

I find most MLS teams mediocre to meh, even the ones seen to have more talent and skill.  And the upper echelon teams have just enough of a superiority talent wise to think they are better than they actually are, hence the inability to close out matches with one or even two goal leads.  And when those teams are missing a key player, too often the rest of their supporting casts look on a similar class as their lower level opponents.

In this most unusual of seasons, the adage that anything can happen on any given day takes on a whole different dimension.

 

[The Beaver 2.0]

On 9/20/2020 at 1:22 PM, BearcatSA said:

I find most MLS teams mediocre to meh, even the ones seen to have more talent and skill.  And the upper echelon teams have just enough of a superiority talent wise to think they are better than they actually are, hence the inability to close out matches with one or even two goal leads.  And when those teams are missing a key player, too often the rest of their supporting casts look on a similar class as their lower level opponents.

In this most unusual of seasons, the adage that anything can happen on any given day takes on a whole different dimension.

 

I don't disagree with the analysis, but I wonder if what we are seeing--in essence--is parity when in most leagues we see two or three super clubs who dominate while the rest of the pack fights to avoid relegation.  Is parity necessarily worse than what we see in these other leagues?  I mean, yes, if the football is shite, then it is shite. No argument there.  

[Unnamed Trialist]

I'm shocked fans here would get rid of Adnan. How quickly attitudes change. It would be a typical example of blaming a super talented player for the inability of the coach to manage the team. Sort out the team, and keep the players with character. 

This whole lot of BS about problems in the lockeroom before, supposedly about the Spanish speakers. That is never a problem if someone is managing a roster properly. And talent with a tough character is never a problem as long as the entire team is not like that.

Just keep the objective quality and change the manager and the entire technical staff.

[rkomar]

It's always the fault of the players getting paid the most.  When the team doesn't get results, it feels best to get rid of your best paid players and keep the cheap ones.  The smart money says upgrade your cheap players to better play with your skilled ones, the jealous heart says bring down the ones making the most money.

[SthMelbRed]

6 hours ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

I'm shocked fans here would get rid of Adnan. How quickly attitudes change. It would be a typical example of blaming a super talented player for the inability of the coach to manage the team. Sort out the team, and keep the players with character. 

This whole lot of BS about problems in the lockeroom before, supposedly about the Spanish speakers. That is never a problem if someone is managing a roster properly. And talent with a tough character is never a problem as long as the entire team is not like that.

Just keep the objective quality and change the manager and the entire technical staff.

Ali Adnan shows off his super talent once in about every 4 matches. In the other 3, he's merely okay, with some flashes of his ability, in a couple, and he's God-awful in the other. He's not good enough, consistently enough, to justify his salary. Couple that with a ready replacement already in place in Gutierrez, and it's clear that the DP slot can be put to better use.

[Free kick]

On 9/20/2020 at 4:22 PM, BearcatSA said:

I find most MLS teams mediocre to meh, even the ones seen to have more talent and skill.  And the upper echelon teams have just enough of a superiority talent wise to think they are better than they actually are, hence the inability to close out matches with one or even two goal leads.  And when those teams are missing a key player, too often the rest of their supporting casts look on a similar class as their lower level opponents.

In this most unusual of seasons, the adage that anything can happen on any given day takes on a whole different dimension.

 

 

23 hours ago, The Beaver 2.0 said:

I don't disagree with the analysis, but I wonder if what we are seeing--in essence--is parity when in most leagues we see two or three super clubs who dominate while the rest of the pack fights to avoid relegation.  Is parity necessarily worse than what we see in these other leagues?  I mean, yes, if the football is shite, then it is shite. No argument there.  

I think that you are both right.   i figured out from watching the TFC team in 2017-18 that in MLS, 2-4 players can really make a difference and give you a false impression about other players on the squad and of the team as whole.    In 2017,  the team set records for wins in a season (later broken) and when i was watching them,  I would see a team that still clicked when the bench players would come in as subs and the team wouldnt miss a beat when some of those 2-4 key guys were rested (or had short term injuries) on any given night.   I was thinking and even commenting here about the impressive talent depth. 

In 2018 there is a rash of long term injuries as a result of the short off-seaon and long CCL campaign.   Some of those bench players (who looked so impressive in 2017) are thrust into roles of starters and key players for longer stretches.  I was convinced from the squad depth ( I had assumed from watcing 2017 squad) that this was still a play off team. Instaed,  TFC 2018 was looking like a USL team for most of the early part 2018 and ended up with one of the five worst records in the league even after some of returned from injury.

Atlanta is another example. People raved about Julian Gressel and his future when he was playing for them when they had Almiron, Martinez, etc.   Now he is barely an average player in the league, if that.  

Soccer is a lot like basketball in that star talent can elevate everybody else and make a lot of people look better than they are. Different from hockey and football for sure.   Makes me re-think how the 50 years of canadian soccer might have looked with just the one player.  

Edited September 23, 2020 by Free kick

[Obinna]

On 9/20/2020 at 11:58 AM, RS said:

Right now I still think the Whitecaps have a severe talent disadvantage vs. most MLS teams, but the attacking duo of Montero and Cavallini could be good enough to keep them in games (if MDS utilizes them together more often going forward).

I think Montero has playmaking capabilities that can paper over the serious lack of a creative midfielder. I would like to see those two continue to play together while the whitecaps try and figure things out.

[Stoppage Time]

8 hours ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

I'm shocked fans here would get rid of Adnan. How quickly attitudes change. It would be a typical example of blaming a super talented player for the inability of the coach to manage the team. Sort out the team, and keep the players with character. 

This whole lot of BS about problems in the lockeroom before, supposedly about the Spanish speakers. That is never a problem if someone is managing a roster properly. And talent with a tough character is never a problem as long as the entire team is not like that.

Just keep the objective quality and change the manager and the entire technical staff.

I have to agree with Jeffrey here. It is so important that the coach play a guy correctly. Adnan is better as a left midfielder IMHO, and the club is better served with Gutierrez at LB. Finding the right situation for players lifts spirits on and off the field.

[Watchmen]

3 hours ago, Stoppage Time said:

I have to agree with Jeffrey here. It is so important that the coach play a guy correctly. Adnan is better as a left midfielder IMHO, and the club is better served with Gutierrez at LB. Finding the right situation for players lifts spirits on and off the field.

That's nice, except Adnan has stated that he doesn't see himself as a left mid but as a LB or LWB.  He wants to do what Davies does (attack from further back) but he doesn't hustle back the way Davies does.  There's a reason Montreal absolutely killed the Whitecaps down that side in the first game.  I don't think anyone disputes his talent going forward, even if his effort in games is definitely questionable.

[Watchmen]

12 hours ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

I'm shocked fans here would get rid of Adnan. How quickly attitudes change. It would be a typical example of blaming a super talented player for the inability of the coach to manage the team. Sort out the team, and keep the players with character. 

This whole lot of BS about problems in the lockeroom before, supposedly about the Spanish speakers. That is never a problem if someone is managing a roster properly. And talent with a tough character is never a problem as long as the entire team is not like that.

Just keep the objective quality and change the manager and the entire technical staff.

I think Adnan's charter is definitely in question.  After putting in no effort in a game he was eventually pulled from, he was showered, changed and in the stands in no time. You really don't see players of character pulling that stunt.

Edited September 23, 2020 by Watchmen

[BearcatSA]

1 hour ago, Watchmen said:

That's nice, except Adnan has stated that he doesn't see himself as a left mid but as a LB or LWB.  He wants to do what Davies does (attack from further back) but he doesn't hustle back the way Davies does.  There's a reason Montreal absolutely killed the Whitecaps down that side in the first game.  I don't think anyone disputes his talent going forward, even if his effort in games is definitely questionable.

He's at his best (and happiest) when he can have lots of space into which to run and then he has a good bit of speed generated to go 1 v 1 against a defender either to cut outside to cross or inside to shoot.  He needs a player in front of him who will play more inside to make that space for him, so a 4--3-3 with an inverted winger who likes to play inside more helps him a ton.  In the two matches where he played LB in the 4-4-2 he was hindered by the wide player in front of him (Teibert vs Seattle, Guttierez vs TFC) because their width took away his space on the outside, so he was left having to pass out of the back more (which is inconsistent).  Also, he needs a strong defensive midfield minder to cover when he's way up the field and do a better job of delaying and actually tackling than what I have seen for most of the season.  I think he has looked the best this year early on when the right footed Milinkovic was the winger in front of him.

 

[Ed_S]

I was somewhat shocked that Kristian Jack was offering excuses for Vancouver not adding to their roster in the last Whitecaps broadcast. Citing their limited budget? Really? A lot of pies to be eaten with those transfer fees they've pulled in the last 2 1/2 years

 

[Unnamed Trialist]

These Adnan-bashing arguments show why you cannot let moralizing puritans have a say in club football. I think it is part and parcel of Vancouver's losing mentality. Look, Adnan I could care less about, but it is the attitude that won't work or go anywhere. 

You keep the talent, and find a coach able to manage it. The rest is the waking nightmare that is the Caps these last years.

Right now, talent: well the most talented was Reyna. Enough said.

Edited September 23, 2020 by Unnamed Trialist

[Watchmen]

3 hours ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

These Adnan-bashing arguments show why you cannot let moralizing puritans have a say in club football. I think it is part and parcel of Vancouver's losing mentality. Look, Adnan I could care less about, but it is the attitude that won't work or go anywhere. 

You keep the talent, and find a coach able to manage it. The rest is the waking nightmare that is the Caps these last years.

Right now, talent: well the most talented was Reyna. Enough said.

I think you're overreacting to any "Adnan bashing".  He's a good but flawed player.  If he wasn't flawed, he'd still be in Serie A.  Further, I think most people are just pointing out that having a left back as a DP is a bad philosophy.  The inherent limitations of the position make it a waste of a DP spot, and by extension of limited resources (both the DP spot and the salary for a budget conscious club).  Further, I don't think anyone here is defending MDS.  He hasn't gotten his tactics right, and he's likely lost the room.

I think if you were to ask most people, the answer is get rid of both MDS and Adnan. 

[The Beaver 2.0]

Well, that was a poop-show last night!  LAFC, to be fair, is a great team. And, yet, they've lost a handful of games lately by good margins. Which suggests, I suppose, that relative the rest of the league the Caps are even worse than I thought. Is this possible? How much of this falls on MDS and his staff? How much of this is about the talent on the field?  Perhaps Christian Jack was being melodramatic, but the idea that the Caps are a fourth tier team within MLS is probably not as exaggerated as Caps management and ownership might like to think. Or do they know how poor this team is?  What I love about LAFC, aside from their playing style, is that they've a very clear and deliberate model and that they've hired the right people to execute it. Bradley, love him or not, is the right guy for this model, one that is all about finding really good young talent in the hopes of selling those players to European clubs for big money. And, along the way, they play beautiful football, win the league and get a crack at the cup every year or so.  Yup, they've got deeper pockets and much bigger market, but still...

[SthMelbRed]

If you read the full quotes from the thread, I think you'll find him promising a new 'impactful' full DP and 2-3 young DPs for next season.

[Unnamed Trialist]

19 hours ago, Watchmen said:

I think you're overreacting to any "Adnan bashing".  He's a good but flawed player.  If he wasn't flawed, he'd still be in Serie A.  Further, I think most people are just pointing out that having a left back as a DP is a bad philosophy.  The inherent limitations of the position make it a waste of a DP spot, and by extension of limited resources (both the DP spot and the salary for a budget conscious club).  Further, I don't think anyone here is defending MDS.  He hasn't gotten his tactics right, and he's likely lost the room.

I think if you were to ask most people, the answer is get rid of both MDS and Adnan. 

I know I am totally overstating thjings, but just answer this: what DP in the ten year history of the Caps in MLS was worth what he was paid, in the overall consensus of regular fans?

You see how there is a pattern there, where Adnan is just the final little squiggle to appear in a sequence of familiar looking squiggles. And the language used to describe that squiggle also has it own little pattern.