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Watchmen

Vancouver Whitecaps 2020 Season

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2 hours ago, Watchmen said:

But define "great support".  Because honestly I look at when the 86ers/Whitecaps were really good in the USL and it was still only 4-5k attendance most games.  

The stadium only seated just over 5,000, so yes, thats pretty much close to capacity.

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15 hours ago, SthMelbRed said:

At their CSL peak, the 86ers were packing 7k+ into Swangard.

That's true, I was there.  Then they downsized the stadium and the capacity dropped to 5100.

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14 minutes ago, Stanley said:

That's true, I was there.  Then they downsized the stadium and the capacity dropped to 5100.

They would still draw 6-7k when Portland or TFC came to town.  Capacity wasn't limited to 5k.  4-5k was just what the interest was.

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Posted (edited)
21 minutes ago, Watchmen said:

They would still draw 6-7k when Portland or TFC came to town.  Capacity wasn't limited to 5k.  4-5k was just what the interest was.

That's incorrect.  I am a former hardcore Whitecaps nerd who (as nerds tend to do) created yearly scrap books, with articles from each game, complete with a list of attendance from each game.  I also had a website where I kept track of attendance. At one point they shrunk the capacity to 5700 from the stadiums previous 7199 capacity, and after they added actual seats to the main grandstand it was further reduced to 5288

Edited by Stanley
Corrected data

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2 hours ago, Stanley said:

That's incorrect.  I am a former hardcore Whitecaps nerd who (as nerds tend to do) created yearly scrap books, with articles from each game, complete with a list of attendance from each game.  I also had a website where I kept track of attendance. At one point they shrunk the capacity to 5700 from the stadiums previous 7199 capacity, and after they added actual seats to the main grandstand it was further reduced to 5288

Not disagreeing with any of that.  But they always had room to add more bleachers and GA sections.  The reality is that 4-5k is what the interest was, and that's what they set up the stadium to accommodate on a regular basis.

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16 minutes ago, Watchmen said:

Not disagreeing with any of that.  But they always had room to add more bleachers and GA sections.  The reality is that 4-5k is what the interest was, and that's what they set up the stadium to accommodate on a regular basis.

Or maybe they couldn't due to fire regulations.

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5 hours ago, Stanley said:

Or maybe they couldn't due to fire regulations.

Well, scrolling through their wikipedia entries for the USL era, they would hit a high of 5800-6000k for a big game most (but not all) years, with the lows being 4-4500 range, and the average hovering around 5k.  So, no.  It wasn't "fire regulations" holding them back.  5k was the interest for a team at that level.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Watchmen said:

Well, scrolling through their wikipedia entries for the USL era, they would hit a high of 5800-6000k for a big game most (but not all) years, with the lows being 4-4500 range, and the average hovering around 5k.  So, no.  It wasn't "fire regulations" holding them back.  5k was the interest for a team at that level.

With no social media, no streaming, no major TV, very little media. Just a grass roots word a mouth solid devoted fan base and support from the local footie community. Why is this even a topic 12 years later? Feels like some revisionist history being pushed here in what was a completely different time and place. It wasnt like a phenomenon or anything but it was solid and fun.

Edited by SpursFlu

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9 minutes ago, SpursFlu said:

With no social media, no streaming, no major TV, very little media. Just a grass roots word a mouth solid devoted fan base and support from the local footie community. Why is this even a topic 12 years later? Feels like some revisionist history being pushed here in what was a completely different time and place. It wasnt like a phenomenon or anything but it was solid and fun.

I'm not sure how "this is what the attendance was during the USL era" is "revisionist history".  If you want to say the circumstances aren't the same, sure.  Won't disagree with that.  But the CFL has social media, a major tv deal, and more media than the Whitecaps have gotten during their MLS era, and it hasn't helped their slow decline in relevance in Vancouver.

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Posted (edited)
29 minutes ago, Watchmen said:

I'm not sure how "this is what the attendance was during the USL era" is "revisionist history".  If you want to say the circumstances aren't the same, sure.  Won't disagree with that.  But the CFL has social media, a major tv deal, and more media than the Whitecaps have gotten during their MLS era, and it hasn't helped their slow decline in relevance in Vancouver.

Do you live in Vancouver? Its all demographics. The CFL just needs to walk away from urban areas. Just go do you. Stop trying to push your product on people who think they're too cool for school anyways. It's funny how things work. If you're just proud of what you are be happy with that you draw people in. If your phony and pander to people. You loose what you got and nobody buys it anyways

Edited by SpursFlu

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3 hours ago, SpursFlu said:

Do you live in Vancouver? Its all demographics. The CFL just needs to walk away from urban areas. Just go do you. Stop trying to push your product on people who think they're too cool for school anyways. It's funny how things work. If you're just proud of what you are be happy with that you draw people in. If your phony and pander to people. You loose what you got and nobody buys it anyways

I'm out in the FV.  I enjoy the CFL, and wish more people did, but they don't.  At no point did I say people shouldn't enjoy the CPL, so I'm not really sure what you're getting at.  My only point has been that the city and region historically has not done well at supporting minor league (or perceived minor league) sports.  You've produced nothing to change that opinion.

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Posted (edited)
On 8/28/2020 at 1:23 PM, Shway said:

I hope if true it goes like this:

- Sell the team to Americans who want to relocate the franchise
- Make a massive profit on their initial investments
- Relocate the brand to the Canadian Premier League 

Please sweet Jesus let this happen. Let the exodus begin starting with the Caps, all right before or after we get a few WC games in 2026. The impact will follow, and TFC will hopefully have no choice.
 

denzel washington GIF

Although I can see Vancouver being valuable to MLS for exposure, the list of US Ownership willing to write a cheque up to half a billion dollar check to get a franchise with a brand new stadium being included would be too much to resist

I`d expect MLS to prioritize an ownership wanting to keep the team in Vancouver. If not, the league would simply buy back the franchise and resell it in the US for up to half a billion.

People might think MLS will want to keep the team in Vancouver at all cost but there will be pressure to give the franchise to a US market instead and quite frankly, they should.

SO

  1. Status quo
  2. Ownership uses the profits from the MLS sell to launch a Vancouver CPL team
  3. Ownership sell the franchise back to MLS, takes the profits and cash out --> leading to new ownership launching a CPL team in Vancouver

I think Montreal is next after that. For all intend and purposes, they are Bologna B team and the sale of Binks made that unbelievably obvious. Serie A Bologna is Saputo's baby now. Does he really care as much if his team stays in MLS bleeding tens of millions per season or cashing out and starting a CPL club that could serve the same purpose (helping Bologna & loan destination for young Bologna players) at a fraction of the price?

There's no situation where these 2 leave MLS that the CSA and CONCACAF allows TFC to stay.

Edited by Ansem

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10 hours ago, SpursFlu said:

Do you live in Vancouver? Its all demographics. The CFL just needs to walk away from urban areas. Just go do you. Stop trying to push your product on people who think they're too cool for school anyways. It's funny how things work. If you're just proud of what you are be happy with that you draw people in. If your phony and pander to people. You loose what you got and nobody buys it anyways

Same in Toronto, Argos would draw in the 905, not so much in the city. Same phenomenon will happen in Montreal if it hasn't started already but I'm not sure the 450 wants CFL either. I know Quebec City doesn't want the CFL.

But yeah, it's demographics that's hitting the CFL in the big cities and they have yet to adjust and change their approach.

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Posted (edited)
12 hours ago, Watchmen said:

I'm not sure how "this is what the attendance was during the USL era" is "revisionist history".  If you want to say the circumstances aren't the same, sure.  Won't disagree with that.  But the CFL has social media, a major tv deal, and more media than the Whitecaps have gotten during their MLS era, and it hasn't helped their slow decline in relevance in Vancouver.

How the product is presented matters and this is where the CPL succeeded where USL never could do it right or cared too.

Unlike the NHL, NFL, NBA and MLB being the best leagues in the world at what they do, MLS is light-years away from that. I'm not convinced that MLS leaving town for CPL would translate in people abandoning the sport altogether or hold on to MLS by crossing the border every weekend.

Presentation matters and if the venue, marketing...overall presentation of the club and league is done right, it could work. Ownership plays a big part in it as well so, we don't know for sure that CPL would flop in Vancouver. I think they'd be fine with rivalries on Vancouver Island, Fraser Valley and other Canadian clubs.

Also, my recurring point is the opportunity at being a "dynasty club" winning trophies consistently and going to CONCACAF tournament consistency..what sell better than that?

What's the better sell long term?

  • The "Southhampton" of MLS
  • The "Celtic or Rangers" of CPL

Has being dynasty clubs in SPL hurt Celtics ticket sales? Are they that much worse in continental tournaments? They are known as the "Scottish Champions" worldwide. Vancouver in MLS are nothing worldwide and it will remain that way, same for Montreal.

I don't know, there's value into this and with the FIFA Club World Cup being expanded, access to CCL berth will become valuable in the long run.

just random thoughts

Edited by Ansem

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Posted (edited)
8 hours ago, Watchmen said:

I'm out in the FV.  I enjoy the CFL, and wish more people did, but they don't.  At no point did I say people shouldn't enjoy the CPL, so I'm not really sure what you're getting at.  My only point has been that the city and region historically has not done well at supporting minor league (or perceived minor league) sports.  You've produced nothing to change that opinion.

Ok fine. I think many have done well some have not. I also think it's not so simple. Many factors either way and things change.

CFL should hire me as commissioner. Day 1.. 4 downs

Edited by SpursFlu

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12 hours ago, Ansem said:

Unlike the NHL, NFL, NBA and MLB being the best leagues in the world at what they do, MLS is light-years away from that. I'm not convinced that MLS leaving town for CPL would translate in people abandoning the sport altogether or hold on to MLS by crossing the border every weekend.

Oh, I don't think fans would cross the border every weekend to watch a game in Seattle.  No one is under any illusions that MLS is the best in the world (even if it's their long term goal). At the same time you're dropping from "in this league you got to see Beckham and Lampard and Gerrard and Pirlo" to "in this league you can watch the players who were cut by the Whitecaps".  The CPL is a development league, it's good for Canadian soccer, and that absolutely appeals to certain fans.  But, I think a lot fans would just revert to sticking to European club football, which is the best in the world. 

12 hours ago, Ansem said:

Also, my recurring point is the opportunity at being a "dynasty club" winning trophies consistently and going to CONCACAF tournament consistency..what sell better than that?

What's the better sell long term?

  • The "Southhampton" of MLS
  • The "Celtic or Rangers" of CPL

Has being dynasty clubs in SPL hurt Celtics ticket sales? Are they that much worse in continental tournaments? They are known as the "Scottish Champions" worldwide. Vancouver in MLS are nothing worldwide and it will remain that way, same for Montreal.

Well, the CPL put a salary cap in place with the deliberate attempt to stop "dynasty clubs".  The Whitecaps in CPL couldn't outspend all their rivals the way Celtic or Rangers can in the SPL.  That's by design, and there's nothing wrong with it.  And, yes, Celtic and Rangers have done worse in continental tournaments as the SPL has slid in to irrelevance world wide.  Celtic just lost to a Hungarian side in the 2nd round of the Champions League.  Further, how much weight does "Scottish Champions" carry these days, vs "Premier League club"?  I'm guessing that, worldwide, "Premier League club" is more important.

Further, let's be honest: soccer (on a per person basis) is bigger in Scotland than it is here.  The CPL goes up against sports that matter more to the average sports fan in Canada.  The SPL doesn't have much competition in Scotland.

And I think you're putting too much stock in the "going to CONCACAF tournaments consistently".  I like the Champions League.  I like the Voyagers Cup.  But they're among the lowest attended games in a Whitecaps season.  More people cared about the first round of MLS playoffs than they did about the CONCACAF semi-finals.

just random thoughts

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11 hours ago, SpursFlu said:

Ok fine. I think many have done well some have not. I also think it's not so simple. Many factors either way and things change.

CFL should hire me as commissioner. Day 1.. 4 downs

So long as I can keep the rouge.

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13 hours ago, Ansem said:

denzel washington GIF

Although I can see Vancouver being valuable to MLS for exposure, the list of US Ownership willing to write a cheque up to half a billion dollar check to get a franchise with a brand new stadium being included would be too much to resist

I`d expect MLS to prioritize an ownership wanting to keep the team in Vancouver. If not, the league would simply buy back the franchise and resell it in the US for up to half a billion.

People might think MLS will want to keep the team in Vancouver at all cost but there will be pressure to give the franchise to a US market instead and quite frankly, they should.

SO

  1. Status quo
  2. Ownership uses the profits from the MLS sell to launch a Vancouver CPL team
  3. Ownership sell the franchise back to MLS, takes the profits and cash out --> leading to new ownership launching a CPL team in Vancouver

I think Montreal is next after that. For all intend and purposes, they are Bologna B team and the sale of Binks made that unbelievably obvious. Serie A Bologna is Saputo's baby now. Does he really care as much if his team stays in MLS bleeding tens of millions per season or cashing out and starting a CPL club that could serve the same purpose (helping Bologna & loan destination for young Bologna players) at a fraction of the price?

There's no situation where these 2 leave MLS that the CSA and CONCACAF allows TFC to stay.

There is zero chance the ownership group sells back to MLS.  We can debate if the team gets sold to a US group, but it's not going through MLS. If MLS had that ability, they'd be doing it right now with Salt Lake (who's owner fails a number of stipulations set out by the league).  No, if MLS allows the Whitecaps and Montreal to relocate to the US, it's at the expense of future expansion fees.  And they are definitely not at the stage where they're ready to do that yet.

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A few things, please excuse the long post:

The Argos would disappear if they moved to the 905. No-one in the 905 area acknowledges the CFL exists and haven't for the last 20 years I lived there (which includes living and working in Brampton, Vaughan, Oshawa, and Richmond Hill).  

The Impact aren't going anywhere. If I was Joey Saputo and I own both a Serie A team and my hometown team in MLS, I'm not losing the chance to bring good players to MLS on loan to give them time to grow, make my team better, and either be sold to Europe or to play for my Serie A team later. Also, players like Didier Drogba wouldn't join the CPL, and Montreal fans wouldn't turn out 15,000 strong to watch Choiniere play Carducci. They will watch Piette vs. Bradley, or Josef Martinez, or Carlos Vela. Most importantly, TFC. Impact fans will never agree to watch the Impact play second-fiddle to Toronto because they went to CPL. From a former Torontonian who has talked to Montrealers, trust me on this. Toronto-Montreal is the biggest rivalry between cities in North America, bar none.

Finally, how many fans in Vancouver are going to go watch a Whitecaps team that goes from "not that good in MLS" to "not that good in CPL? " Remember, if Vancouver goes to CPL, they'll have to start from scratch, with 8, 10, maybe even up to 16 CPL teams ahead of them. Does anyone really believe Cavallini, Adnan, Tiebert, or Crepeau will play for 40 grand a year? You'll have a team that's years behind Pacific to start, never mind the rest of the league. I have a hard time believing 20,000 Vancouver fans are going to watch a team that might take anywhere from 5 to 10 years to be competitive in the CPL. Also, why would the Whitecaps choose to go from a big dog in the Voyageur's Cup with 10 times the budget of the CPL (what happened last year with Cavalry wouldn't happen 9 out of 10 years) to a team that may, once every 5 or 10 years, have a chance at a CONCACAF league spot? It makes no sense.

I don't understand the "Whitecaps to CPL" talk. You would potentially set soccer in BC back years. Vancouver Whitecaps going from big dog in Canada to a minnow compared to even Pacific for a while would kill soccer interest in Vancouver for a generation.

Edited by Trois Reds
spelling, grammar

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2 hours ago, Trois Reds said:

A few things, please excuse the long post:

The Argos would disappear if they moved to the 905. No-one in the 905 area acknowledges the CFL exists and haven't for the last 20 years I lived there (which includes living and working in Brampton, Vaughan, Oshawa, and Richmond Hill).  

The Impact aren't going anywhere. If I was Joey Saputo and I own both a Serie A team and my hometown team in MLS, I'm not losing the chance to bring good players to MLS on loan to give them time to grow, make my team better, and either be sold to Europe or to play for my Serie A team later. Also, players like Didier Drogba wouldn't join the CPL, and Montreal fans wouldn't turn out 15,000 strong to watch Choiniere play Carducci. They will watch Piette vs. Bradley, or Josef Martinez, or Carlos Vela. Most importantly, TFC. Impact fans will never agree to watch the Impact play second-fiddle to Toronto because they went to CPL. From a former Torontonian who has talked to Montrealers, trust me on this. Toronto-Montreal is the biggest rivalry between cities in North America, bar none.

Finally, how many fans in Vancouver are going to go watch a Whitecaps team that goes from "not that good in MLS" to "not that good in CPL? " Remember, if Vancouver goes to CPL, they'll have to start from scratch, with 8, 10, maybe even up to 16 CPL teams ahead of them. Does anyone really believe Cavallini, Adnan, Tiebert, or Crepeau will play for 40 grand a year? You'll have a team that's years behind Pacific to start, never mind the rest of the league. I have a hard time believing 20,000 Vancouver fans are going to watch a team that might take anywhere from 5 to 10 years to be competitive in the CPL. Also, why would the Whitecaps choose to go from a big dog in the Voyageur's Cup with 10 times the budget of the CPL (what happened last year with Cavalry wouldn't happen 9 out of 10 years) to a team that may, once every 5 or 10 years, have a chance at a CONCACAF league spot? It makes no sense.

I don't understand the "Whitecaps to CPL" talk. You would potentially set soccer in BC back years. Vancouver Whitecaps going from big dog in Canada to a minnow compared to even Pacific for a while would kill soccer interest in Vancouver for a generation.

Personally, I agree with this.  As a Canadian fan, I personally want the 3 MLS sides to succeed and maintain the high profile that it delivers to soccer in those communities as well as the higher standard of play for Canadians then the CPL.  If these sides are to some day bolt the MLS for the CPL, I hope its in 10 to 20 years where the the CPL is well established and with attendances in the 10-15k range so the gap between the MLS and CPL is not as large.  Now it is just too big and losing the Whitecaps or the Impact from the MLS would be a big blow to soccer in Canada.

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Personally think MLS is a house of cards propped up by expansion fees and a TV deal that is overvalued based on actual ratings.

Also think the league has expanded too fast. Making it hard to be familiar with the opponents.

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