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Big_M

General MLS Talk 2020

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1 hour ago, Obinna said:

I guess I am somewhere in the middle of you and SpecialK here.

To some degree I have let go of his decision not to play for us, but at the time it was painful. We really could have used him and the way it played out was akin to a hot girl leading you on, all while her older sister tells you there's a chance. Really not cool, but we have a girl now who is way hotter and better in every respect, so it is easier to forgive (even if we do not forget).

At the same time, players sometimes gravitate to the best possible team they qualify for, and there is something "unpatriotic" about that, even though you can understand they do what is "best" for their career. Their patriotism will often be called into question in such cases, which is also understandable.

I have no actual issue with any player doing what's best for themselves. However, there were specific things in the disingenuous ways that certain players went about it that were disrespectful towards my country, and that cannot be forgiven easily. 

"I am a proud Canadian, but I have an opportunity to do something that will benefit my professional career. Professional athletes have very short careers and sometimes have to do things that are in their best personal interests. That doesn't diminish my love and gratitude for Canada, which has provided me and my family with so much."

Not that hard, and would have been grudgingly accepted by most Canadians, even passionate supporters of the CMNT. We are a passionate people who understand shared loyalties very well. On the flip side, we don't much like it when people disrespect or dismiss the country the country we love. ********** and JDG2 acted like dicks and tried to shift responsibility for their actions onto others. That kind of dishonesty and cowardice isn't easily forgotten.

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3 minutes ago, SthMelbRed said:

I have no actual issue with any player doing what's best for themselves. However, there were specific things in the disingenuous ways that certain players went about it that were disrespectful towards my country, and that cannot be forgiven easily. 

"I am a proud Canadian, but I have an opportunity to do something that will benefit my professional career. Professional athletes have very short careers and sometimes have to do things that are in their best personal interests. That doesn't diminish my love and gratitude for Canada, which has provided me and my family with so much."

Not that hard, and would have been grudgingly accepted by most Canadians, even passionate supporters of the CMNT. We are a passionate people who understand shared loyalties very well. On the flip side, we don't much like it when people disrespect or dismiss the country the country we love. ********** and JDG2 acted like dicks and tried to shift responsibility for their actions onto others. That kind of dishonesty and cowardice isn't easily forgotten.

Fair enough. You are certainly entitled to that opinion and you are entitled to express it in that way. Everyone let's go of things at different times. Some people never let things go and that is okay too.

Personally, my anger towards his decision is largely diminished. We have Davies and David, two players with much higher ceilings. They really are a different class of player. If we were still stuck in 2013 mode, with a dark future, I would probably hold onto it more. However, the future is bright indeed, so I do not care that much now-a-days.

He is by no means my preference, but if he can come in for a few seasons and help turn Vancouver around, it would be good for that franchise and good for Canadian soccer. The way I see it, he screwed around with us and left Canada in the cold, at least he can do his part in fixing a broken Canadian club.

That would be like a 5% repayment for what he did. I will take 5% over 0%.

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8 minutes ago, Big_M said:

RSL owner Dell Loy Hansen under fire..will be interesting to see how this ends

Commissioner Don Garber issues statement on Real Salt Lake owner Dell Loy Hansen

Maybe he will sell the club under this pressure....

Reports that Vancouver were looking to sell. Now this situation, which may end up in a sale. The uncertainty around thess two franchises is not good.

People are boycotting the NBA over this kind of stuff, as well as the China issue (It accounts for 10% of NBA revenue, so the league policy is to support China on the Hong Kong/Tibet/Uyghur genocide issues). I am really getting concerned that taking the same path as the NBA will hurt MLS in the long run, even if it is arguably the moral thing to do.

I do realize that NOT speaking up on the perceived racial injustice may hurt them more in the short term. They are stuck between a rock and a hard.

Regardless, I see this turning a lot of people off from MLS, like it has for the NBA. Perhaps the league is banking on making up for the loss by gaining new fans that are attracted to their stance on social justice. Right now that is the path of least resistance for them.

For the good of the game in North America, I hope their strategy pays off.....

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Its certainly turning me off so im looking elsewhere..even cpl today stopping in the middle of the game to take a knee..just too much..you did it before the game ok but if you gonna stop in the middle of the game and kick the ball out and take a knee you might as well not play..big turn off

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1 minute ago, Big_M said:

Its certainly turning me off so im looking elsewhere..even cpl today stopping in the middle of the game to take a knee..just too much..you did it before the game ok but if you gonna stop in the middle of the game and kick the ball out and take a knee you might as well not play..big turn off

I cannot imagine all the players feel the same way on the inside. It would be rare for all people of the same profession to share the same opinion on a social issue. 

Putting myself at risk of going off topic here, but Aubrey Huff comes to mind.

He is a former MLB player, who has paid the price for speaking out publically and going against the grain. His twitter following his gained over 100k in the past few months.

There are a massive number of professional athletes, from many sports, including high profile superstars, who privately contact him on Twitter thanking him for his bravery and for being their voice. When he asks them why they also do not come out, they always tell him it is not about losing money or a contract, but it is about safety for their family.

Certainly there must be some high profile MLS superstars who do not like what is going on, but tow the line regardless. 

I wonder if such players, if the opportunity comes up, will leave MLS over what is going on, and by the same token, I wonder how many prospective players are looking at what is going on and thinking "no thanks".

And to be fair, many more could be turning down MLS based on a genuine fear of being a race victim in the US.

Just sad on so many levels.

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6 minutes ago, Obinna said:

I cannot imagine all the players feel the same way on the inside. It would be rare for all people of the same profession to share the same opinion on a social issue. 

Putting myself at risk of going off topic here, but Aubrey Huff comes to mind.

He is a former MLB player, who has paid the price for speaking out publically and going against the grain. His twitter following his gained over 100k in the past few months.

There are a massive number of professional athletes, from many sports, including high profile superstars, who privately contact him on Twitter thanking him for his bravery and for being their voice. When he asks them why they also do not come out, they always tell him it is not about losing money or a contract, but it is about safety for their family.

Certainly there must be some high profile MLS superstars who do not like what is going on, but tow the line regardless. 

I wonder if such players, if the opportunity comes up, will leave MLS over what is going on, and by the same token, I wonder how many prospective players are looking at what is going on and thinking "no thanks".

And to be fair, many more could be turning down MLS based on a genuine fear of being a race victim in the US.

Just sad on so many levels.

I find it hard to believe that anybody wouldn't be appalled by the continuing killing of unarmed black citizens by agents of the state in what is supposed to be a civilised country. If you're a decent human being, participating in a team sport, you wouldn't look at your black teammates in obvious emotional distress and just shrug your shoulders and say, "let's just ******* play!"

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Posted (edited)

RSL situation looks like a Dan Synder type situation - a dysfunctional organization. Lots of stories about sexism, sexual harassment, racism and verbal abuse from the owner and some other execs. 

Athletic has a report saying owner things casually like when are we gonna lynch this guy when introduced to Kellyn Acosta and of course the n word many times.

https://theathletic.com/2027796/2020/08/27/

RSL owner also furloughed staff while RSL players stepped up to pay them. So it looks like not playing last night has unearthed the bad character and conduct of hopefully an ex owner.

Jozy wants to buy the team.

 

Edited by red card

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The problem with the protests and boycotts going this far is that it seems to do more harm than good.  Raising awareness of an issue is one thing but punishing the fans who have done nothing wrong is another, and that what happens if you don't play the game or interrupt the game for protests. If the players actually believe that the audience watching their games consists predominantly or entirely of racist cops someone needs to disabuse them of that notion in a hurry.

Having met genuine racists and been the target of racist behaviour plenty of times in my life, I can't imagine for the life of me that anyone who is a racist asshat is going to stop being one because of a player boycott. "What? LAFC aren't playing tonight? OK, I will stop being a supremacist now" isn't the way i expect anyone thinks. If anything the boycott is just going to make them become more hate-filled. Now, while one is tempted to say who cares what a racist a-hole thinks, the problem becomes that you also antagonize  the fans who support and sympathize with their cause, which means you end up doing more harm than good. 

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5 minutes ago, Gian-Luca said:

The problem with the protests and boycotts going this far is that it seems to do more harm than good.  Raising awareness of an issue is one thing but punishing the fans who have done nothing wrong is another, and that what happens if you don't play the game or interrupt the game for protests. If the players actually believe that the audience watching their games consists predominantly or entirely of racist cops someone needs to disabuse them of that notion in a hurry.

Having met genuine racists and been the target of racist behaviour plenty of times in my life, I can't imagine for the life of me that anyone who is a racist asshat is going to stop being one because of a player boycott. "What? LAFC aren't playing tonight? OK, I will stop being a supremacist now" isn't the way i expect anyone thinks. If anything the boycott is just going to make them become more hate-filled. Now, while one is tempted to say who cares what a racist a-hole thinks, the problem becomes that you also antagonize  the fans who support and sympathize with their cause, which means you end up doing more harm than good. 

The goal isn't to change the racist's mind. It's to ensure that, should they become a member of law enforcement, they won't be allowed to harass and/or kill black and brown people with impunity. It's about pushing the politicians to make the necessary changes. 

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, SthMelbRed said:

I find it hard to believe that anybody wouldn't be appalled by the continuing killing of unarmed black citizens by agents of the state in what is supposed to be a civilised country. If you're a decent human being, participating in a team sport, you wouldn't look at your black teammates in obvious emotional distress and just shrug your shoulders and say, "let's just ******* play!"

You should find it hard to believe.

You should find it hard to believe, because it is not true. Nobody here wants to see murder and death. Nobody wants to minorities die because of racism.

See? This is the problem when it comes to this stuff.

If you took a breath long enough to see why someone disagrees, then you would not say what you said.

In almost all cases, the disagreement is never about the killings. Do you really think people are so evil and twisted? 

To me it is pretty clear there is more than what meets the eye with this stuff. That may not be clear to you, or it may be clear to you but irrelevant, but regardless, all the other stuff is where the disagreements lie 99.9% of the time. Nobody supports police killings. People care about their black teammates in emotional distress.

Edited by Obinna

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3 minutes ago, Obinna said:

You should find it hard to believe.

You should find it hard to believe, because it is not true. Nobody here wants to see murder and death. Nobody wants to minorities die because of racism.

See? This is the problem when it comes to this stuff.

If you took a breath long enough to see why someone disagrees, then you would not say what you said.

In almost all cases, the disagreement is never about the killings. Do you really think people are so evil and twisted? 

To me it is pretty clear there is more than what meets the eye with this stuff. That may not be clear to you, or it may be clear to you but irrelevant, but regardless, all the other stuff disagreements lie 99.9% of the time, it is not because people support police killings or couldn't care less about their black teammates in emotional distress.

In this situation, indifference may as well be approval. I'd love to hear you explain how wishing to play on, despite the obvious emotional pain being experienced by a number of your teammates, could be indicative of something other than indifference, or worse. It was you, let's not forget, that raised the spectre of a silent majority of players being bullied into going along with something with which they disagree.

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50 minutes ago, SthMelbRed said:

The goal isn't to change the racist's mind. It's to ensure that, should they become a member of law enforcement, they won't be allowed to harass and/or kill black and brown people with impunity. It's about pushing the politicians to make the necessary changes. 

Yeah I get that - but the protests/boycotts don't target politicians, they target the general public/fans. So that's where you have to look to see what the effect of these actions are. If its pissing those people off, it's going to be counter-productive.

I mean, I have a hard time imagining many Canadian politicians were watching a CPL game in the middle of the working day today to see that mid-game protest, let alone American ones who would be far more relevant to what's happening down in the US. I get the players want to express themselves and their support and show solidarity, but they might want to think twice about how they are going about doing it.

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, SthMelbRed said:

In this situation, indifference may as well be approval. I'd love to hear you explain how wishing to play on, despite the obvious emotional pain being experienced by a number of your teammates, could be indicative of something other than indifference, or worse. It was you, let's not forget, that raised the spectre of a silent majority of players being bullied into going along with something with which they disagree.

That is an easy one - if a specific player is in emotional pain and wants to sit out, they can. If the players want to ban together and push the league to postpone the games, they can. I am not convinced it is particularly useful in solving police brutality. I think it is arguably counterproductive, on many levels. I think some fans see it as a political play, even though I don't think a lot of the players see it that way. I think some fans are hurt to see the league support a dangerous ideological movement that has led rioters to destroy businesses, livelihoods, and in some cases lives. I suspect you do not see it that way, but many people do, rightly or wrongly. 

Those are just some of the many reasons that have nothing to do with indifference, but yes for sure there are people who are in fact indifferent and do not care either way. They just want to watch sports. That doesn't mean they are not appalled by racism and murder. Do you really think everyone who is "indifferent" by your standards is a racist or not a decent human being?

By that logic you must feel you are a great human being by comparison. Maybe that explains why you say the things you do. 

Edited by Obinna

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27 minutes ago, Obinna said:

That is an easy one - if a specific player is in emotional pain and wants to sit out, they can. If the players want to ban together and push the league to postpone the games, they can. I am not convinced it is particularly useful in solving police brutality. I think it is arguably counterproductive, on many levels. I think some fans see it as a political play, even though I don't think a lot of the players see it that way. I think some fans are hurt to see the league support a dangerous ideological movement that has led rioters to destroy businesses, livelihoods, and in some cases lives. I suspect you do not see it that way, but many people do, rightly or wrongly. 

Those are just some of the many reasons that have nothing to do with indifference, but yes for sure there are people who are in fact indifferent and do not care either way. They just want to watch sports. That doesn't mean they are not appalled by racism and murder. Do you really think everyone who is "indifferent" by your standards is a racist or not a decent human being?

By that logic you must feel you are a great human being by comparison. Maybe that explains why you say the things you do. 

You're trying to shift the goal posts. You suggested that some players were being bullied into going along, either by deed or through fear of retribution, even though they disagreed with the strike. Now, you're moving on to fans who might not like that the games are off. I'm not disputing that there are many who aren't impressed that there's no basketball, baseball, hockey, or football on TV. I want you to substantiate your claims of players being bullied into supporting the strike.

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3 hours ago, SthMelbRed said:

I'd love to hear you explain how wishing to play on, despite the obvious emotional pain being experienced by a number of your teammates, could be indicative of something other than indifference, or worse. 

Dude. You asked me to explain this. I just did in my last post. How is that moving the goalposts?

34 minutes ago, SthMelbRed said:

I want you to substantiate your claims of players being bullied into supporting the strike.

This wasn't even directed towards you, I was responding to Big M. Besides, that is not even my claim. If you want it substantiated go bug Aubrey Huff about it on Twitter.

That is more than enough from you for one day. You asked and I answered. I ask and my questions go unanswered:

3 hours ago, Obinna said:

In almost all cases, the disagreement is never about the killings. Do you really think people are so evil and twisted? 

 

1 hour ago, Obinna said:

Do you really think everyone who is "indifferent" by your standards is a racist or not a decent human being?

By that logic you must feel you are a great human being by comparison. Maybe that explains why you say the things you do. 

So this is clearly a one-way street. Done playing this game with you. Good night.

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6 hours ago, Big_M said:

RSL owner Dell Loy Hansen under fire..will be interesting to see how this ends

Commissioner Don Garber issues statement on Real Salt Lake owner Dell Loy Hansen

Herc Gomez blasts the owner about this in espn FC. The video has 450 upvotes and 207 downvotes on YouTube.

By comparison, the Messi video has 2.2k upvotes and 71 downvotes

The Neymar / Mbappe video has 688 upvotes and 28 downvotes

The Bartomeu resigning from Barca video has 4.3k upvotes and 111 downvotes 

......

So another indicator this is not a good look for the league and it is turning fans off in a big way. Or maybe people really hate Herc that much, hard to tell.

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20 minutes ago, Obinna said:

Dude. You asked me to explain this. I just did in my last post. How is that moving the goalposts?

This wasn't even directed towards you, I was responding to Big M. Besides, that is not even my claim. If you want it substantiated go bug Aubrey Huff about it on Twitter.

That is more than enough from you for one day. You asked and I answered. I ask and my questions go unanswered:

 

So this is clearly a one-way street. Done playing this game with you. Good night.

 

5 hours ago, Obinna said:

I cannot imagine all the players feel the same way on the inside. It would be rare for all people of the same profession to share the same opinion on a social issue. 

Putting myself at risk of going off topic here, but Aubrey Huff comes to mind.

He is a former MLB player, who has paid the price for speaking out publically and going against the grain. His twitter following his gained over 100k in the past few months.

There are a massive number of professional athletes, from many sports, including high profile superstars, who privately contact him on Twitter thanking him for his bravery and for being their voice. When he asks them why they also do not come out, they always tell him it is not about losing money or a contract, but it is about safety for their family.

Certainly there must be some high profile MLS superstars who do not like what is going on, but tow the line regardless. 

I wonder if such players, if the opportunity comes up, will leave MLS over what is going on, and by the same token, I wonder how many prospective players are looking at what is going on and thinking "no thanks".

And to be fair, many more could be turning down MLS based on a genuine fear of being a race victim in the US.

Just sad on so many levels.

I present to you a Republican-scale attempt at gas lighting.

I ask and my questions go unanswered:

  4 hours ago, Obinna said:

In almost all cases, the disagreement is never about the killings. Do you really think people are so evil and twisted? 

 

  1 hour ago, Obinna said:

Do you really think everyone who is "indifferent" by your standards is a racist or not a decent human being?

By that logic you must feel you are a great human being by comparison. Maybe that explains why you say the things you do. 

So this is clearly a one-way street. Done playing this game with you. Good night.

Seriously? These weren't rhetorical questions?

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23 hours ago, SpecialK said:

Oh please ! I’m a proud Canadian that loves the national team. But I’m not gonna hate and throw a tantrum because a guy didn’t choose Canada. I’m so amazed you guys are still bum hurt by these players. 

Haha another series of classic SpecialK shitposts. You’re the one coming off as having a tantrum, similar to all the other tantrums you’ve had here.

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On 8/27/2020 at 6:59 AM, SpecialK said:

Owen didn’t play for Canada because he was cut at the youth level. If he made the team there is a good chance he’s playing for Canada. Now was Owen being a cry baby for sure but blame the idiot who didn’t see talent, the idiots who were running the CSA and youth teams. With Jonathan come on man, the guy played in Holland and  for Holland’s youth teams and had a chance to play with Dutch greats. Also at the time 2012 Canada had Stephen hart has coach and they just lost 8-1 to ******* Honduras. I’m sorry I don’t blame him for picking the Dutch over Canada. I bet he was thinking what a **** show, there is no way Canada is making to the World Cup. So **** show Canada or playing with Dutch greats. Come man ! 
But at the end of day if he can come and be amazing for a Canadian pro team and help win. Well that’s gonna help grow the game even more. Help Canada more. Let the past go. 

He was 14 and it was the U17s. How many of current internationals from major countries got picked to play U17 when they were 14?

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