Jump to content
IAmPappy

2020 Voyageurs Cup Format

Recommended Posts

On 1/30/2020 at 7:41 PM, Kent said:

You answered zero of my questions. I am the guy that was advocating for the number of teams in the Canadian Championship to be filled out to a good tournament number (like 16 or even 32) with D3 teams, and then doing a completely random draw.

I am also the guy who kept track of results in the CCL and CL and determined their CONCACAF rank before CONCACAF did, and advocated for those numbers being used to determine how many spots each country gets, and in which competition. Your NASL/USL question does nothing against my argument. I didn’t even like it when it was a 5 team tournament and the two D2 teams had to play each other before making it to the Voyageurs Cup proper. I thought it robbed a fan base of seeing their team against an MLS team.

But I guess I will take a stab at answering your question. Here are the results compiled since 2011 (when Edmonton started).

CPL Single game

Wins 1, Draws 2, 1 goal losses 3, multi goal losses 0

USA D2 teams Single game

Wins 3, Draws 1, 1 goal losses 4, multi goal losses 10

CPL 2 legged ties

Wins 1, 1 goal losses 1, multi goal losses 1

USA D2 teams 2 legged ties

Wins 0, 1 goal losses 3, multi goal losses 6

 

So if we count draws as a positive result (which I think is fair in the context), CPL is better in every category except for single game wins. USA D2 teams have 3 times the single game wins in 3 times the number of games.

CPL so far has lost 50% of their games to MLS teams, whereas Edmonton/Ottawa have lost 56% of games to MLS teams by multiple goals, and 78% of their games to MLS teams overall.

So yes, with the small sample size, it does look like CPL teams are better than the NASL and USL teams were. It will be interesting to see if CPL teams can maintain the impressive results from year 1 or if they regress to the mean.

If we're going based on the very, very limited sample size of last year: USL is better than CPL.  After all, the only USL team beat a CPL team.

This argument reminds me of when the Voyagers Cup first started as a more formalized tournament under the CSA, and an absolutely garbage TFC team struggled against two USL powerhouses in Montreal and Vancouver.  MLS was still the better league, but the gap between those specific teams was much smaller.  Last year, the best CPL side knocked out an absolutely embarrassing and shambolic MLS team, lost to a mid-tier MLS team in both legs, and avoided the best MLS team available because the CPL team lost to a USL team.

The CPL was of better quality than I think even the most optimistic people thought.  It can get better.  But it is still well behind MLS in terms of overall quality.  Having the MLS teams enter at the quarterfinals is the most logical thing, but I look forward to the day when it's a blind draw at that stage and you have the possibility of an all MLS match up earlier.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 1/30/2020 at 4:45 PM, Kent said:

When exactly does CPL deserve to be treated equally to MLS? An “eye test” is way too subjective. It shouldn’t be based on money figures or attendance. If the answer is “results” then what exactly do the results need to be? Because CPL has already eliminated an MLS team, and I am pretty sure there weren’t even any 2 goal wins by MLS teams over CPL teams yet. That doesn’t exactly scream lower league.

To give MLS teams an advantage just because, without setting any parameters for CPL deserving equality in the future is just wrong in my opinion.

The examples you mentioned are poor because those bye’s in other countries were earned by climbing the league ladder to the top division. There is no such thing from CPL to MLS. So it is fair in their systems, but not in ours.

Yes, you are correct that Canada is unlike the countries I mentioned and you are right that a CPL team beat an MLS team last year. That doesn’t put the CPL on par with the MLS clubs.  Do you expect that to be the norm? Why do you think it was such a big deal when it happened? It’s because everyone knew that Cavalry (and the CPL) are underdogs. 
 

I see your posts on here Kent, you’re a knowledgeable guy. You can’t honestly say the CPL clubs should be seen as equal to their MLS counterparts because the both are in “D1” leagues. 
 

When CPL clubs have similar salaries to MLS clubs (you’re right Again, eye test is too subjective) it’s time to re-evaluate. I would even exclude DP’s, Tam players from that equation. Outside of that, unless we start seeing CPL teams consistently prove they are on par with MLS clubs (the starters, not their reserves) MLS clubs should be last to enter the competition. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hypothetical question. Let’s say CPL abolishes the salary cap and one team spends as much on players as the MLS salary cap. Does that mean CPL teams then get to start at the same round as MLS teams? Or if the numbers mean only 3 teams earn a bye, does it go to the three highest spending teams? What if salaries rise in CPL to MLS level, so CSA puts them in the same round, but then later a gap re-forms between them, do they drop back down then? Like I said before, I don’t think you should base it on money.

Anyways, no I don’t think CPL teams have the same quality as MLS teams, and no I don’t expect another win over MLS teams this year. However, I find it weird that the CSA are the ones that have dubbed MLS and CPL both D1, but then they turn around and say for the purposes of this tournament, MLS teams are more D1 than CPL.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, Kent said:

I find it weird that the CSA are the ones that have dubbed MLS and CPL both D1, but then they turn around and say for the purposes of this tournament, MLS teams are more D1 than CPL.

Because MLS isn't D1. It just isn't ranked.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If this was the UEFA Champions League, seedings would be based on results over a rolling 5-year period. So, even though Napoli has 2 wins and a draw against Liverpool across 4 meetings in the last 16 months, Liverpool is still ranked higher, on the back of two consecutive final appearances, winning it last year. Real Madrid lost over 2 legs to Ajax last year, but are still the top-ranked club in the competition. Roma knocked Barcelona out of the competition 2 seasons ago, yet Barca remains ahead of them in the rankings/seedings.

 

It's too early to be ranking CPL teams based on a single outlier result.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 hours ago, SthMelbRed said:

If this was the UEFA Champions League, seedings would be based on results over a rolling 5-year period. So, even though Napoli has 2 wins and a draw against Liverpool across 4 meetings in the last 16 months, Liverpool is still ranked higher, on the back of two consecutive final appearances, winning it last year. Real Madrid lost over 2 legs to Ajax last year, but are still the top-ranked club in the competition. Roma knocked Barcelona out of the competition 2 seasons ago, yet Barca remains ahead of them in the rankings/seedings.

 

It's too early to be ranking CPL teams based on a single outlier result.

I agree, but the point is that they don’t seem to have any scoring system like this in place. In the absence of a scoring system they should be treated equally in my opinion. It looks like they are choosing to say MLS teams get to start later by rule, rather than some sort of fair system that doesn’t discriminate against the teams in a Canadian league.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
19 hours ago, Kent said:

I agree, but the point is that they don’t seem to have any scoring system like this in place. In the absence of a scoring system they should be treated equally in my opinion. It looks like they are choosing to say MLS teams get to start later by rule, rather than some sort of fair system that doesn’t discriminate against the teams in a Canadian league.

If the CSA keeps the current format of giving teams byes then the fairest way to do it to seed the four teams that made the semi-finals in the previous championship.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 2/1/2020 at 10:05 PM, Kent said:

Hypothetical question. Let’s say CPL abolishes the salary cap and one team spends as much on players as the MLS salary cap. Does that mean CPL teams then get to start at the same round as MLS teams? Or if the numbers mean only 3 teams earn a bye, does it go to the three highest spending teams? What if salaries rise in CPL to MLS level, so CSA puts them in the same round, but then later a gap re-forms between them, do they drop back down then? Like I said before, I don’t think you should base it on money.

Anyways, no I don’t think CPL teams have the same quality as MLS teams, and no I don’t expect another win over MLS teams this year. However, I find it weird that the CSA are the ones that have dubbed MLS and CPL both D1, but then they turn around and say for the purposes of this tournament, MLS teams are more D1 than CPL.

MLS is the US D1, CPL is the Canadian D1.  I don't think the CSA had anything to do with declaring MLS D1.

Overall these are early year growing pains.  As the CPL expands the byes should get pushed back to earlier rounds.  When the CPL grows in quality to the point where it isn't seen as a David vs Goliath match in every CPL v MLS draw you can look to having other ways to award byes.  This is a young competition with a new league and Canada is in a unique situation.  There is no need, at this point, to set all the rules in stone.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So I don't know how trustworthy he is, but Jeremy Filosa seems to think that Ottawa being added would give the Impact a bye to the semis

I'm pretty baffled by this idea, because there would then only be three quarter final games and the CSA would have to take 12 teams and reduce it to 3. The only mathematical way I can see that working would be no team, other than the Impact, get any byes. First round would be all 12 teams (including TFC, Vancouver, and Cavalry, who all currently don't play that round), second round the 6 winners, third round the 3 winners + Impact. This would mean that the Impact would only need 2 games to make the final while any other team would need to play 6 games to make it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
57 minutes ago, narduch said:

Im assuming they would go back to the previous year format in this case. Where TFC had the bye to the semis

You may be right, but that would force some teams to play more games than the current schedule - it feels less obtrusive and, frankly, more fair to drop a bye (Cavalry or Vancouver, presumably) than to essentially drop a "bye" for 6 teams (aka adding an extra round).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

A couple of weeks ago I posted my frustrations about Forge FC not getting a bye while the Vancouver Whitecaps got a bye to the quarter finals. Before I go on, I will point out that although my allegiance is with Forge, there is by no means any bias involved in my thinking. My justification was that Forge FC won the CPL, while the Whitecaps finished bottom of their Western Conference in MLS last season. Both teams lost in the first round they participated in the Canadian Championship last season. Keep in mind the four semifinalists from last season got a bye to the quarterfinals for this season. Of course, the Ottawa Fury, who were one of the semifinalists last season have ceased operations, thus opening up a bye. My other reasoning for why Forge should get the bye over Whitecaps FC is something that is quite common in many domestic cups around the world. The teams that participate in continental competitions get the furthest byes in comparison to other teams, which is something I can agree that. Examples include EFL Cup, Coppa Italia, KNVB Beker, Toto Cup Ligat Al, and the Scottish League Cup. Yes, some of those competitions are just league cups and are not as significant as a national cup, but the idea is there. Getting back to the Canadian Championship, the Impact and Forge FC are the only Canadian teams participating in CONCACAF competitions, so why shouldn't they be the first teams to get the benefit of a bye? They are going to have to go to at least one other country outside of Canada and the US, making their schedule even more hectic. That is my opinion, and I am interested to hear some other opinions

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
24 minutes ago, Ruffian said:

Maybe there needs to be a Canadian Club ranking developed based upon the last 5 to 10 years in the Voyageurs cup that is then used to place teams in the next years competition.

Most nations just base it on the previous year Domestic league standings.

Why do we have to complicate things?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, narduch said:

Most nations just base it on the previous year Domestic league standings.

Why do we have to complicate things?

I think you can answer that yourself without anybody telling you.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 hours ago, deschamp86 said:

Because we have two "domestic leagues"

Two leagues at vastly different levels. Vancouver underperformed last year, and had an $8.1 million payroll and average $272,000 per player salary. That's over 10 times higher than the CPL, if I've heard correctly.

(Toronto had a $24.3 million payroll, and an average of about $758,000 for it's 32 players ... about 32 times the CPL ... meanwhile Montreal came in at $13 million).

It's not unusual at the national cup level, for the higher quality league to all have a bye to a later round. Even the year after one team get's knocked out by a minnow.

And that will continue until there is more parity between the leagues.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 2/12/2020 at 11:09 AM, deschamp86 said:

Because we have two "domestic leagues"

I don't know about having two domestic leagues. MLS is an American league with 3 Canadian teams as guests. I don't know how one could call that a Canadian domestic league...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, dnina10 said:

I don't know about having two domestic leagues. MLS is an American league with 3 Canadian teams as guests. I don't know how one could call that a Canadian domestic league...

You know how quotations work sometimes right?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, deschamp86 said:

You know how quotations work sometimes right?

Yeah I do. Just don't know why they'd be applied there

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So let's draft some criteria for the Voyageurs Cup.

The aim is to strengthen its prestige and defend its integrity.

1-The CSA should continue to seek out formulas to include the maximum number of Canadian clubs in the Voyageurs Cup (Canadian Championship competition). The criteria should be laid out clearly to include all professional MLS and CPL clubs, as well as semi-professional and amateur clubs competing in legitimate competitions, including USL2 and the provincial elite leagues.

2-The winner of the Voyageurs Cup should play at least 6 matches to be able to lift the trophy. This establishes a minimum criteria of participation, helps legitimise any final success, and ensures that no team receive a bye into semi-finals.

3-Canadian teams playing in Concacaf competitions should be considered for a bye into later rounds, which with the current participation level should be quarter finals. This is a standard practice for Cups throughout the world, and would allow Canadian clubs to compete effectively in representation of Canada on the international club stage. Currently this would include the previous year's winner of the Voyageur's Cup and the previous CPL champion.

4-Rounds previous to quarter finals can be drawn using regional criteria, to reduce travelling costs. The CSA should ensure formulas for amateur teams to cover costs incurred in travelling to compete for the Canadian Championship, whether through direct funding, broadcast rights or sponsorship.

5-The CSA should establish a ranking points system to assist in determining draws and byes for the Voyageurs Cup. Many formulas currently exist that are used by national associations and federations in FIFA.

A possible system would be to accumlate these points over a previous period (eg 3 years). 

Until this point system comes into effect, the CSA should use historical participation in the competition as well as the other criteria indicated here to determine draws.

6-In the awarding of the Voyageurs Cup, fans of participating teams in the finals should participate in the award ceremony. It should be considered that original donors to the Voyaguers Cup and/or accredited longtime fans be chosen for this task, in a rotating system. Fans could also be chosen impartially through a draw from amongst requests for participation.

7-The Voyageurs and Canadian soccer supporters, as original founders and custodians of the Voyageurs Cup, call on the CSA and all Canadian holders of the trophy to ensure its optimal physical condition and proper display in the holding club's premises.

Edited by Unnamed Trialist

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
57 minutes ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

So let's draft some criteria for the Voyageurs Cup.

The aim is to strengthen its prestige and defend its integrity.

1-The CSA should continue to seek out formulas to include the maximum number of Canadian clubs in the Voyageurs Cup (Canadian Championship competition). The criteria should be laid out clearly to include all professional MLS and CPL clubs, as well as semi-professional and amateur clubs competing in legitimate competitions, including USL2 and the provincial elite leagues.

2-The winner of the Voyageurs Cup should play at least 6 matches to be able to lift the trophy. This establishes a minimum criteria of participation, helps legitimise any final success, and ensures that no team receive a bye into semi-finals.

3-Canadian teams playing in Concacaf competitions should be considered for a bye into later rounds, which with the current participation level should be quarter finals. This is a standard practice for Cups throughout the world, and would allow Canadian clubs to compete effectively in representation of Canada on the international club stage. Currently this would include the previous year's winner of the Voyageur's Cup and the previous CPL champion.

4-Rounds previous to quarter finals can be drawn using regional criteria, to reduce travelling costs. The CSA should ensure formulas for amateur teams to cover costs incurred in travelling to compete for the Canadian Championship, whether through direct funding, broadcast rights or sponsorship.

5-The CSA should establish a ranking points system to assist in determining draws and byes for the Voyageurs Cup. Many formulas currently exist that are used by national associations and federations in FIFA.

A possible system would be to accumlate these points over a previous period (eg 3 years). 

Until this point system comes into effect, the CSA should use historical participation in the competition as well as the other criteria indicated here to determine draws.

6-In the awarding of the Voyageurs Cup, fans of participating teams in the finals should participate in the award ceremony. It should be considered that original donors to the Voyaguers Cup and/or accredited longtime fans be chosen for this task, in a rotating system. Fans could also be chosen impartially through a draw from amongst requests for participation.

7-The Voyageurs and Canadian soccer supporters, as original founders and custodians of the Voyageurs Cup, call on the CSA and all Canadian holders of the trophy to ensure its optimal physical condition and proper display in the holding club's premises.

In relation to the above criteria for the Voyageurs Cup, following is a possible point or coefficient system for deciding ranking in draws, and the resulting points result from last year's competition. The system would only click into place after three years of competition. What do you think?

COEFFICIENT/POINTS SYSTEM FOR VOYAGEURS CUP (CANADIAN CHAMPIONSHIP)

Points for results

1 point for every draw in a Voyageurs Cup match

3 points for every win in a Voyageurs Cup match

Points for passing rounds. The following points are applied once from the final round passed and are not accumulative.

2 points for qualifying for the Voyageurs Cup from a league competition other than MLS or CPL

5 points for passing a first round

8 points for passing into quarter finals.

12 points for passing into semi finals

18 points for passing into the finals

25 points for winning the Cup

 

Forge FC                             1

Vancouver Whitecaps      1

Valour FC                            2

AS Blainville                       2+1 = 3

Vaughn Azzuri                   3

FC Edmonton                    3

HFX Wanderers                3+4+1+8 = 16

York 9                                 4+3+1+8 = 16

Ottawa Fury                       4+12 = 16

Toronto FC                         6+18 = 24

Cavalry FC                          6+4+4+12 = 26

Montreal Impact                4+6+25 = 35

Edited by Unnamed Trialist

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't think a coefficient system is really necessary. Just rank the teams based on the previous domestic season.

The 3 MLS clubs and CPL champions start in the quarter finals.

I went to look it up: PDL/USL 2 season runs from May 3 to July 17. So lets say the expanded event could start in mid-May. We are starting June 17 this year.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, narduch said:

I don't think a coefficient system is really necessary. Just rank the teams based on the previous domestic season.

The 3 MLS clubs and CPL champions start in the quarter finals.

I went to look it up: PDL/USL 2 season runs from May 3 to July 17. So lets say the expanded event could start in mid-May. We are starting June 17 this year.

I think you will find a lot of people here do not accept the 3 MLS clubs getting a bye ahead of other CPL teams and I think they have an argument. If your argument is that MLS clubs are better and should start later then they will be awarded by being better in the competition and getting better starting positions.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×
×
  • Create New...