2020 Voyageurs Cup Format

[MtlMario]

Could someone remind me what would of happened if Forge had won any of those 3 games they lost in Concacaf?

[RS]

15 minutes ago, gator said:

The president of the CSA also has a son in the Toronto FC Academy, do you think he is going to inconvenience or piss off the club? This whole thing stinks, I can't remember the exact circumstances or the quarantine protocol at the time but wasn't the idea thrown out last fall for TFC to wait for Forge to return from Concacaf matches and play the Cup final after TFC was eliminated and it was deemed completely unreasonable? Now they want a team to play one week back into training!

Forge's last match was Dec. 8. Add in a 14-day quarantine and you're looking at Dec. 22 (or more likely Dec. 23, given Forge would return on Dec. 9).

IIRC, Ontario was in much stricter lockdown at that point, too.

I suppose that the teams could've gotten together in Canada on Nov. 22 (14 days after TFC's last reg. season match, and three days prior to their playoff game in Hartford) but TFC would've rightfully raised a Bob Young-style stink about that.

The right time to play was September.

[narduch]

3 minutes ago, MtlMario said:

Could someone remind me what would of happened if Forge had won any of those 3 games they lost in Concacaf?

If they had defeated Haiti's Arachaie they would have qualified for Champions League. They really should have won that match. 

My theory is CSA cancels the Voyageurs Cup outright had that happened. 

Forge had one last chance to qualify in a play in game against Marathon but lost 1-0.

 

[RS]

35 minutes ago, Ansem said:

CPL needs to be given EQUAL consideration than MLS clubs. No matter what the MLS purists thinks, those billionaires who launched CPL providing the CSA with it's own D1 stepped-up when no one else would.

Equal consideration is the only reason the game hasn't been announced yet. If the CSA was only considering TFC's concerns, the match would've been announced already. 

(Bring on the invective thrown my way for considering all sides instead of just the CPL's.)

[Cblake]

41 minutes ago, Ansem said:

After this mess has been resolved and this farce has past, the CSA needs to get it's priorities straight.

CPL needs to be given EQUAL consideration than MLS clubs. No matter what the MLS purists thinks, those billionaires who launched CPL providing the CSA with it's own D1 stepped-up when no one else would.

Yes, these are exceptional circumstances due to COVID but the optics looks terrible. Not a great way to convince more investors to be part of the league (certainly not Euro powers) if you're acting like this.

Why would you be part of this when the federation is demonstrating that it won't have your back whenever MLS sides are demanding to be accommodated?

It's a bad look...period

Do we know for sure it was MLSE/TFC making demands , saying they would not play at certain times, there are a lot of moving parts here. Once TFC was eliminated from the playoffs there was a window but Forge were in CONCACAF League, at this point laying blame is pointless, lets just play the dam game. 

[narduch]

8 minutes ago, Cblake said:

Do we know for sure it was MLSE/TFC making demands , saying they would not play at certain times, there are a lot of moving parts here. Once TFC was eliminated from the playoffs there was a window but Forge were in CONCACAF League, at this point laying blame is pointless, lets just play the dam game. 

TFC basically set the March 20 date now and historically the MLS clubs have had a bigger sway on the scheduling. 

I'm going to laugh if they end up drawing straws to pick the winner. 

[scooterlawrence5]

First, let me start by saying I don't support one club over another.  BUT, I do want soccer in this country to continue to grow.

Both Toronto FC and Forge FC (and the whole internet world) have known that the championship final would be in the first quarter of 2021 (i.e., from January 1 to March 30, 2021) since November 25, 2020.  Both clubs should have been preparing as such.  When Canada Soccer sent the proposal to Queens Park for March 20, 2021 several weeks ago, both clubs were informed of this in February. 

Canada Soccer hasn't officially announced March 20 because the government has NOT officially approved it yet.

BUT, both clubs have known about the potential game since November 2020, and both clubs have known about the March 20 date specifically since at least February when they were notified and since the media first started talking about the date.  March 20 has been out there for several weeks.  It's been the worse kept secret in football.  

Failing March 20 in Ontario, I'm sure Canada Soccer considered other options (flipping a coin, playing in Orlando, playing in Buffalo, playing in Winnipeg) none of which are viable for various reasons including extra financial expenditure.

Here is the original CPL news release highlighting the first quarter from back on November 25:

https://canpl.ca/article/2020-canadian-championship-final-pushed-back-to-first-quarter-of-2021

Here is the official tweet from Canada Soccer back on November 25:

https://twitter.com/CanadaSoccerEN/status/1331651670011375616

To criticize Canada Soccer is disingenuous because they've communicated about the game for months.  COVID has tied their hands and made scheduling virtually impossible.  Plus, there is no evidence at all that Canada Soccer wants to purposely disadvantage Forge FC.  That's ridiculous considering Canada Soccer is a long-term financial investor into the CPL.  In fact, one could really argue the opposite.

The real question is why a club failed to resubmit their "return to play protocol" to get approval from Queens Park for training when they knew this game would eventually come.  That's the real travesty.  Like TFC, Forge FC should've started this process on November 25!

... finally, Bob Young's tweet and the accompanying fans whining is entirely misplaced.  Canada Soccer had to schedule the match because they couldn't at any point in 2020 and the Concacaf champions league finally made the deadline real! 

It's Canada Soccer's game, let's get on with it.  Concacaf and FIFA schedule games all the time and clubs have to show up.  That's football.

This is sport, play the game on the field.  And YES, COVID sucks and it's impacted every walk of life including scheduling a national championship.  But both clubs need to get on with it and just play.

The winner (whoever it is) playing vs Leon Mexico is going to be no cakewalk!  This is the champions league, learn to act like a champion Mr. Young.

Let's look forward to returning to some sort of normalcy for the 2021 version of the championship.  Best of luck to both clubs ... and above else, let's hope the game on March 20 actually takes place.  There is no guarantee until the whistle is blown.

 

Edited March 7, 2021 by scooterlawrence5

[Ansem]

3 hours ago, RS said:

Equal consideration is the only reason the game hasn't been announced yet. If the CSA was only considering TFC's concerns, the match would've been announced already. 

(Bring on the invective thrown my way for considering all sides instead of just the CPL's.)

The fact that it has yet to be announced yet is unbelievable to me. The date being made official sooner would have help Forge secure the right to train sooner with proper preparation 

Unless you go to the province with a date for your event, not much will happen.

It's crazy that they will go to the province this late when it seemed TFC knew about the date a while back.

Either this is favoritism/catering to TFC or flat out incompetence / negligence. Don't come at me telling me it's neither of those with some rationalization bullshit.

 

Edited March 7, 2021 by Ansem

[scooterlawrence5]

Canada Soccer has not announced the date publicly because the government has NOT officially approved the event yet.  It is scheduled to come this week.  Canada Soccer must then coordinate with operations, marketing, sponsors and broadcasters.

However, Canada Soccer DID communicate the date to TFC and Forge privately since early February.  There is evidence from media interviews that Chris Armas knew about March 20 way before they started training which means that Canada Soccer communicated to both TFC and Forge early to mid-February at minimum.

In other words, the March 20 date has been known privately to the clubs for a long time, and the "first quarter period" has been known to the world since November 25.

 

[narduch]

9 minutes ago, scooterlawrence5 said:

Canada Soccer has not announced the date publicly because the government has NOT officially approved the event yet.  It is scheduled to come this week.  Canada Soccer must then coordinate with operations, marketing, sponsors and broadcasters.

However, Canada Soccer DID communicate the date to TFC and Forge privately since early February.  There is evidence from media interviews that Chris Armas knew about March 20 way before they started training which means that Canada Soccer communicated to both TFC and Forge early to mid-February at minimum.

In other words, the March 20 date has been known privately to the clubs for a long time, and the "first quarter period" has been known to the world since November 25.

 

TFC knew the date because they basically dictated it to the CSA.

Always used to getting their way they assumed it was settled. 

[narduch]

24 minutes ago, scooterlawrence5 said:

First, let me start by saying I don't support one club over another.  BUT, I do want soccer in this country to continue to grow.

Both Toronto FC and Forge FC (and the whole internet world) have known that the championship final would be in the first quarter of 2021 (i.e., from January 1 to March 30, 2021) since November 25, 2020.  Both clubs should have been preparing as such.  When Canada Soccer sent the proposal to Queens Park for March 20, 2021 several weeks ago, both clubs were informed of this in February. 

Canada Soccer hasn't officially announced March 20 because the government has NOT officially approved it yet.

BUT, both clubs have known about the potential game since November 2020, and both clubs have known about the March 20 date specifically since at least February when they were notified and since the media first started talking about the date.  March 20 has been out there for several weeks.  It's been the worse kept secret in football.  

Failing March 20 in Ontario, I'm sure Canada Soccer considered other options (flipping a coin, playing in Orlando, playing in Buffalo, playing in Winnipeg) none of which are viable for various reasons including extra financial expenditure.

Here is the original CPL news release highlighting the first quarter from back on November 25:

https://canpl.ca/article/2020-canadian-championship-final-pushed-back-to-first-quarter-of-2021

Here is the official tweet from Canada Soccer back on November 25:

https://twitter.com/CanadaSoccerEN/status/1331651670011375616

To criticize Canada Soccer is disingenuous because they've communicated about the game for months.  COVID has tied their hands and made scheduling virtually impossible.  Plus, there is no evidence at all that Canada Soccer wants to purposely disadvantage Forge FC.  That's ridiculous considering Canada Soccer is a long-term financial investor into the CPL.  In fact, one could really argue the opposite.

The real question is why a club failed to resubmit their "return to play protocol" to get approval from Queens Park for training when they knew this game would eventually come.  That's the real travesty.  Like TFC, Forge FC should've started this process on November 25!

... finally, Bob Young's tweet and the accompanying fans whining is entirely misplaced.  Canada Soccer had to schedule the match because they couldn't at any point in 2020 and the Concacaf champions league finally made the deadline real! 

It's Canada Soccer's game, let's get on with it.  Concacaf and FIFA schedule games all the time and clubs have to show up.  That's football.

This is sport, play the game on the field.  And YES, COVID sucks and it's impacted every walk of life including scheduling a national championship.  But both clubs need to get on with it and just play.

The winner (whoever it is) playing vs Leon Mexico is going to be no cakewalk!  This is the champions league, learn to act like a champion Mr. Young.

Let's look forward to returning to some sort of normalcy for the 2021 version of the championship.  Best of luck to both clubs ... and above else, let's hope the game on March 20 actually takes place.  There is no guarantee until the whistle is blown.

 

For a guy claiming to not be a fan of either team your shots at Young are  over the top.

Too many factual errors in here to comment on.

It looks like they were waiting for Concacaf to set up the 2021 format. That wasn't announced until January 22. And the draw wasn't until February 10. My guess is that is the day they really started to plan this.

[Watchmen]

1 minute ago, narduch said:

And the draw wasn't until February 10. My guess is that is the day they really started to plan this.

Even if you want to go with the "TFC set the date" theory, that was nearly a month ago. Plenty of time to announce the date and get everything filed with the government for the event, and give Forge enough time to train. It's a CSA failure, not a TFC conspiracy. 

[Ansem]

43 minutes ago, scooterlawrence5 said:

Both Toronto FC and Forge FC (and the whole internet world) have known that the championship final would be in the first quarter of 2021 (i.e., from January 1 to March 30, 2021) since November 25, 2020.  Both clubs should have been preparing as such.  When Canada Soccer sent the proposal to Queens Park for March 20, 2021 several weeks ago, both clubs were informed of this in February. 

CPL has a huge transparency issue granted but so does the CSA. They would have evertyhing to gain to specify that they did submit the date to the province weeks ago which would have put to rest a lot of the criticism. Why not just say that they are waiting on the province? That's important details you'd think they'd share...but they didn't so it's easy to assume that this whole affair is a comical exercise in improvisation.

43 minutes ago, scooterlawrence5 said:

To criticize Canada Soccer is disingenuous because they've communicated about the game for months.  COVID has tied their hands and made scheduling virtually impossible.  Plus, there is no evidence at all that Canada Soccer wants to purposely disadvantage Forge FC.  That's ridiculous considering Canada Soccer is a long-term financial investor into the CPL.  In fact, one could really argue the opposite.

My issue isn’t March 20th. My issue is why is it taking so long to get the CSA to annouce a firm date.

Im sorry but this isn’t a league game. This is a CSA game. It's on the CSA to get this event approved. MLS did it's job which got TFC to train early, CPL did it's job so they can train in time for their season. Both leagues did what they needed to do.

This is a CSA tournament/event. If there are hiccups, that's really on them. It's like blaming the fighters over the UFC not being able to organize their event... That's next level crazy rationalization 

43 minutes ago, scooterlawrence5 said:

finally, Bob Young's tweet and the accompanying fans whining is entirely misplaced.  Canada Soccer had to schedule the match because they couldn't at any point in 2020 and the Concacaf champions league finally made the deadline real! 

It's their tournament, it's their event, it's their game. Bob Young is correct, this IS bullshit. There's really no excuse for not having this game ready to go with proper notice and approval from government.

This is a CSA event - this is their responsibility. Sure everyone knew the game had to be played by end of Q1. Unless you have a firm date, that's not the government's problem. You need cause to gather 30+ guys for training, one was allowed to do so 2 weeks prior to MLS preseason which i think is reasonable - the other, who's season starts in almost 3 months isn’t a valid reason unless you have just cause to train this far in advance.

That's where the CSA comes in and get their event organized. That's not on Forge, this isn't a league game. Government's won't care unless you have a clear plan and a clear date to propose.

The right thing to do is to postpone the game to end of month so Forge gets some training in - but that seems like a long shot now

43 minutes ago, scooterlawrence5 said:

But both clubs need to get on with it and just play.

The winner (whoever it is) playing vs Leon Mexico is going to be no cakewalk!  This is the champions league, learn to act like a champion Mr. Young

What does that say about MLS who bitched and moaned all these years regarding the CCL format, CCL scheduling and V Cup but yet, Mr. Young is a whining brat...the double standard here is unreal

Edited March 7, 2021 by Ansem

[Ansem]

5 minutes ago, Watchmen said:

Even if you want to go with the "TFC set the date" theory, that was nearly a month ago. Plenty of time to announce the date and get everything filed with the government for the event, and give Forge enough time to train. It's a CSA failure, not a TFC conspiracy. 

I'm actually leaning more towards CSA incompetence on this one. Baffling...

[narduch]

9 minutes ago, Watchmen said:

Even if you want to go with the "TFC set the date" theory, that was nearly a month ago. Plenty of time to announce the date and get everything filed with the government for the event, and give Forge enough time to train. It's a CSA failure, not a TFC conspiracy. 

Its pretty obvious that the CSA shoulders a lot of the blame here. 

But it would be naive to think the MLS clubs don't push their weight around.

Besides Young basically intimated that TFC and CSA negotiated a date and then brought it to Forge.

[Ansem]

34 minutes ago, scooterlawrence5 said:

Canada Soccer has not announced the date publicly because the government has NOT officially approved the event yet.  It is scheduled to come this week.  Canada Soccer must then coordinate with operations, marketing, sponsors and broadcasters.

Do how is this Forge fault? Without the fame being approved they had no cause to be allow to train under the current restrictions.

This F up is on the CSA who doesn't seemed to had a clue up until recently. 

Forge must have assumed they'd be given proper prep time but they won't be and rightfully so, this BS which is on the CSA is BS.

The CSA has been lobbying European associations, leagues and clubs to invest in CPL. That’s not a great selling point when they see a prime example of a federation not doing right by their own league.

[scooterlawrence5]

First of all, the CSA doesn't lobby European associations.  It is the league commissioner's responsibility with the current CPL club owners to convince foreign clubs to invest in the CPL.  The CSA facilitates that process when a European club (like Atletico Madrid) shows interest.  Then the CSA sanctions and approves that request.  Don't forget, the CSA and CPL are financial partners as the former has invested in the latter.  The same is not true for TFC as it is owned by MLSE.

Second, lobbying the provincial government for COVID approvals should have started on November 25 with March 30 as the drop-dead date for a match.  That is undebatable!  Both TFC and Forge applied and were asked to provide more information.  TFC did.  Forge didn't.  Granted TFC controls their own training ground which is secure with fencing and a guard tower.  Forge doesn't control who comes in and out of Tim Hortons Field.  

[Cblake]

This what I find interesting when you look back at the fall. MLSE was able to negotiate a modified quarantine plan which allowed for the team to return to Toronto from Hartford for the week between the end of the regular season and the playoffs. Their bubble being their homes and the training facility. 

On the other hand Forge the stayed in Central America for their first CONCACAF League two games, on October 22 and November 3rd, returned to Hamilton, quarantined for two weeks and were allowed to return to training on the 19th of November, trained for two days in Hamilton and then flew to Dominican Republic to prepare for the game on December 1st. This is all based on reading tweets.

What was MLSE able to show the government that it was safe and sound for the Reds to train but Forge was unable to get the same accommodation?  Both teams had very firm dates for games at that point. 

[scooterlawrence5]

Forge could have started modified training on February 16.

According to the City of Hamilton website:

https://www.hamilton.ca/government-information/news-centre/news-releases/city-hamilton-returns-red-control-category-in

The provincial government announced that Hamilton will return to the Red – Control category under the Province’s COVID-19 Response Framework. This change will come into effect on Tuesday, February 16, 2021 at 12 am.

Sports and recreational fitness facilities may reopen, with capacity limits of 10 people in indoor areas with weights and exercise machines, 10 people in all indoor classes, or 25 people in outdoor classes. Participants must maintain two metres of physical distancing at all times, and that spacing is increased to three metres in areas where there are weights or exercise equipment, and in exercise and fitness classes.

[nfitz]

5 hours ago, Ansem said:

CPL needs to be given EQUAL consideration than MLS clubs.

So no more reserving two Champions League spots for a second-tier league then?

Surely, if anything, CSL has a pro-CPL bias - especially given what they did to Ottawa Fury, and rigging the Champions League spots in such a way that that CSL gets two Champions League spots, despite the possibility that there are better teams in the country.

Hamilton and Toronto both new in 2020 that this game wouldn't be happening any later than March 21. Circumstances (and incompetence?) seem to have contrived against Forge. Unfair perhaps - but what about the last 12 months hasn't been unfair?

[narduch]

6 minutes ago, scooterlawrence5 said:

Forge could have started modified training on February 16.

According to the City of Hamilton website:

https://www.hamilton.ca/government-information/news-centre/news-releases/city-hamilton-returns-red-control-category-in

The provincial government announced that Hamilton will return to the Red – Control category under the Province’s COVID-19 Response Framework. This change will come into effect on Tuesday, February 16, 2021 at 12 am.

Sports and recreational fitness facilities may reopen, with capacity limits of 10 people in indoor areas with weights and exercise machines, 10 people in all indoor classes, or 25 people in outdoor classes. Participants must maintain two metres of physical distancing at all times, and that spacing is increased to three metres in areas where there are weights or exercise equipment, and in exercise and fitness classes.

A professional sports team isn't a gym. 

Edited March 7, 2021 by narduch

[Ansem]

10 minutes ago, scooterlawrence5 said:

Second, lobbying the provincial government for COVID approvals should have started on November 25 with March 30 as the drop-dead date for a match.  That is undebatable!  Both TFC and Forge applied and were asked to provide more information.  TFC did.  Forge didn't.  Granted TFC controls their own training ground which is secure with fencing and a guard tower.  Forge doesn't control who comes in and out of Tim Hortons Field.  

How the hell do you know that?

If it was really Forge's fault that the game couldn't proceed - Young would have not tweet that, the CSA would have said something to save face, TFC would have happily pointed this out. 

It's a CSA event, that makes the CSA responsible for it.

[nfitz]

1 hour ago, Watchmen said:

Even if you want to go with the "TFC set the date" theory, that was nearly a month ago.

Why are you making stuff up? It was in November 2020.

CPL themselves noted that the game was going to be the first quarter of 2021, after the CSA set it. With the international break starting March 22, the last possible date was always March 21.

https://canpl.ca/article/2020-canadian-championship-final-pushed-back-to-first-quarter-of-2021

[narduch]

Just now, nfitz said:

Why are you making stuff up? It was in November 2020.

CPL themselves noted that the game was going to be the first quarter of 2021, after the CSA set it. With the international break starting March 22, the last possible date was always March 21.

https://canpl.ca/article/2020-canadian-championship-final-pushed-back-to-first-quarter-of-2021

Technically March 31 would be the last possible date.

[Ansem]

2 minutes ago, nfitz said:

So no more reserving two Champions League spots for a second-tier league then?

Using American logic and using them as the measuring stick shows how little you understand global football...not even worth giving into this.

3 minutes ago, nfitz said:

Surely, if anything, CSL has a pro-CPL bias - especially given what they did to Ottawa Fury, and rigging the Champions League spots in such a way that that CSL gets two Champions League spots, despite the possibility that there are better teams in the country.

Ottawa Fury folded because CONCACAF denied them an extension to their sanction. 

CPL was willing to let them operate in the league AS IS in recognition for what they accomplished. They turned it down and some of their staff went on with publoc cheap shoots against the league - get your facts straight 

CCL

It's CONCACAF that gives the berths to each nations. They gave 3 to Canada.

CONCACAF, CSA fixed a huge injustice towards the 3 MLS clubs. They can now qualify via the league & League cup. If they all do well, all 3 could qualify for the CCL. That's a massive win for them.

The Canadian cup REMAINS accessible to MLS clubs to compete in it. That's an extra opportunity for 1 of the 3 to access the CCL.

MLS is NOT a CSA sanctioned league. The 2 Canadian berths was always going to CPL one way or another. 

Its the norm for domestic cups to only send their winners to Continental football so forget about assigning to the V Cup because I know that's where you're going with this.

Stop you're whining and do your homework. MLS clubs got dealt a better hand than before, yet you're throwing a fit that CPL got 2. Wow