2020 Voyageurs Cup Format

[Ansem]

2 minutes ago, RS said:

Why would it be considered reasonable to allow TFC to gather two weeks prior to the MLS preseason unless there's an actual "reason" (a championship game) for doing so? This makes absolutely no sense.

For decisions being taken on a "case by case" basis - TFC's request was not unreasonable. 2 extra weeks of training, which would also help account for their quarantine period in the US is reasonable. V Cup or not, I think their request was going to be granted regardless. MLS had firm dates and more arguments to grant TFC their exemption. V Cup was A reason, not the ONLY reason.

CPL would have been asking for an exemption from provincial regulations on weak premises. The preseason is at least 2 months away, they have not qualified for CCL, there are no dates for the V Cup as of today. That's not a reasonable request if you have no valid reason to gather this early. Opposite to TFC, Forge's reason is based solely on a V Cup for which we still have no dates for.

That's not how government works (and I work for one)

13 minutes ago, RS said:

You're trying to justify an action that goes against your own argument: TFC is allowed to train because there's a clear date (the start of the MLS season) but somehow they're also getting to start two weeks earlier than other teams because of they're going to start training eventually anyway? 

I explained how the decision making logic at government level works, they don't deal on hypothetical.

15 minutes ago, RS said:

I can buy the government denying Forge because they're less important than TFC (though I would disagree with that stance), but I don't buy that TFC just got to start training two weeks early out of the goodness of the government's hearts.

It's called negotiation, just like the NHL did in the summer and now. Raptors and Jays skipped town for a reason. Sanitary measures are crazy high here and there's extra costs attached to that. The NHL North Division almost didn't happen due to provinces not compromising on safety measures.

If MLS propose to go above an beyond in exchange of the extra 2 weeks, that's a reasonable ask. In government, public service performs "risk assessment" and submit their recommendations to decision makers.

2 extra week is not the same as 2+ months. Risk assessment would paint a drastically different picture unless you have a valid reason - which they don't thanks to the CSA

I find amusing this need to hammer that CPL is lower than MLS at every turn (your comment in bold - which was irrelevant to the case). WE KNOW!

Having to hammer the point overtly or covertly at every turn (which Duane do constantly) hides a superiority complex.

[RS]

52 minutes ago, Ansem said:

I find amusing this need to hammer that CPL is lower than MLS at every turn (your comment in bold - which was irrelevant to the case). WE KNOW!

This is idiotic and you need to stop expecting every comment someone makes about the CPL to read like something from their PR team. What I said wasn't even negative, so stop being childish.

I simply brought up the possibility that decision makers in the Ontario government could feel that way based on the wording of their own rules on their website: "Closure of all indoor and outdoor sports and recreational fitness facilities except for: Facilities operated or for the sole use of identified high performance athletes, including parasport athletes training and competing for the next Olympics/Paralympics, and specified professional leagues (e.g., NHL, CFL, MLS, NBA)..."

MLS is specifically listed there, but CPL is not. It's probably nothing (MLB's not listed either), but it could lend a small insight into how the government is approaching things right now.

52 minutes ago, Ansem said:

Having to hammer the point overtly or covertly at every turn (which Duane do constantly) hides a superiority complex.

Having to find criticism overtly or covertly at every turn (which you do constantly) hides an inferiority complex.

52 minutes ago, Ansem said:

I explained how the decision making logic at government level works, they don't deal on hypothetical.

And I explained how the April 7 start to the CCL (which the Voyageurs Cup final is a direct part of) is not hypothetical.

52 minutes ago, Ansem said:

Raptors and Jays skipped town for a reason. Sanitary measures are crazy high here and there's extra costs attached to that.

This displays a fundamental lack of understanding on your part, despite you apparently working for a government.

The Raptors and Jays didn't skip town because of costs and "sanitary measures." They set up camp in Florida because they are the lone Canadian teams in U.S. leagues, and constantly crossing the border (along with the teams that would come to Toronto to play them) is simply not feasible under current quarantine regulations. Teams would have to isolate for 14 days every time they entered Canada, which just wouldn't work from a scheduling/training perspective in terms of having anything close to a normal season.

It's also why the MNT "home" match against Bermuda is in Florida. 

Anyway, I see you're arguing this same point on the Discord channel as well (hello Robert Borden), so I'll leave you to fight this fight over there. I can't keep repeating myself without going crazy.

[narduch]

 

[RS]

13 minutes ago, narduch said:

 

So I was right all along. I’m sure @Ansemwill acknowledge this gracefully instead of continuing to imply that I’m anti-CPL. 🙄

[Ansem]

33 minutes ago, RS said:

So I was right all along. I’m sure @Ansemwill acknowledge this gracefully instead of continuing to imply that I’m anti-CPL. 🙄

LOL

Being added to the list doesn't exempt you from getting government approval to gather

Seriously🙄

I know you're a hardcore TFC / MLS guy but try harder

 

 

Edited March 5, 2021 by Ansem

[RS]

4 minutes ago, Ansem said:

LOL

Being added to the list doesn't exempt you from getting government approval to gather

Seriously🙄

I know you're a hardcore TFC / MLS guy but try harder

 

 

What? The CPL tweet clearly says they asked to get on the list of exemptions but haven’t been included (yet).

When I suggested that the Ont. government doesn’t see Forge/CPL as important as TFC/MLS (and I specifically stated that I disagree), you starting filling your diaper. Yet my hypothetical turned out to be the case and you’re still being dumb about this. 

Knock yourself out, I guess. And thanks for the retweets. 
 

[SpursFlu]

To me its pretty simple, anyone can play football but if you're waiting for the government to approve your coast to coast pro league you better do as they say and keep walking around in your clown outfit. TFC don't care, they're off to wherever soon. Oh oh oh take me with you..  please

[Ansem]

1 hour ago, RS said:

When I suggested that the Ont. government doesn’t see Forge/CPL as important as TFC/MLS (and I specifically stated that I disagree), you starting filling your diaper. Yet my hypothetical turned out to be the case and you’re still being dumb about this. 

About that list - this is weird since Ontario ruled that professional teams were allowed to train back in May 2020. https://news.ontario.ca/en/statement/56879/ontario-eases-restrictions-on-professional-sports-training-facilities

However, it seemed clear that they still had last say on "how" and "when" they could. Just like in Quebec when the province and city allowed Montreal Impact to train  but still imposed restrictions on them while initially denying them the right to train in their own facility.

So they cleared TFC based primarily on their preseason date but have yet to rule for Forge who officially aren't scheduled to play until end of May. The CSA not having a date for the V Cup doesn't help matters one bit.

I won't presume to understand how Ontario is managing this and on what base - yet, we're talking about a government who hardly has its priorities straight so who knows as of today isn't helping one bit to help make Forge case to go back to training.

Say they make an announcement on Monday, that's March 8th - 12 days to the speculated date of the finals. They have to push it back to end of April.

Your whole premise of Ontario rating MLS above CPL is ridiculous.

 

 

 

 

 

[nfitz]

9 hours ago, narduch said:

Sounds like the date isn't 100% set. Forge is trying to get it moved to first weekend of April. 

That's absurd - 4 days before Champions League starts? Whoever is playing in Champions League should be acclimatizing at height in Mexico by then.

Everyone knew that this would have to be played before the international break. If Hamilton can't get permission to train then move on ...

 

3 hours ago, Ansem said:

They have to push it back to end of April.

The only reason this is happening at all is to pick which team is going to be playing in Mexico on April 7.

Besides, by then TFC will be based in Florida, with the MLS season starting April 17.

Edited March 6, 2021 by nfitz

[gator]

I just caught up with things in this thread, this is potentially harsh on Forge, they are still getting the roster together and haven't trained, this match will be a joke if it goes as rumours have it, not a good way to promote our national league!

[Ansem]

From Bob Young 

 

[gator]

The CSA are not doing themselves any favours if they are trying to act like they have their house in order and with new leadership are behind our National League, this looks like they are only looking after what's best for the more stablished team which plays in an American league, the more I read into it, the more it bothers me, shameful! And to think Nick Bontis is from The Hammer!

[dnina10]

4 minutes ago, gator said:

The CSA are not doing themselves any favours if they are trying to act like they have their house in order and with new leadership are behind our National League, this looks like they are only looking after what's best for the more stablished team which plays in an American league, the more I read into it, the more it bothers me, shameful! And to think Nick Bontis is from The Hammer!

Fully agree. There's absolutely no way the Canadian team playing in an American league should be getting an advantage over a Canadian team playing in a Canadian league. Call it whatever you want. It is unreasonable to expect any team to be ready in 2 weeks for a match of such magnitude when they aren't even finished putting their squad together. However you want to slice this, the blame has to go on the CSA. They had this revised format planned from last summer, and we are a month away from the CONCACAF Champions League commencing, yet we do not even know who will be representing Canada on the continental stage. You can say we already had our changes via the CONCACAF League, which is true, but besides the point. For a first world country, this is substandard. None of us could complain if CONCACAF had said today that the Canadian spot is no longer available as a result of the delay. This is poor, and the CSA should be ashamed of themselves for this disaster

[Ansem]

I believe in equal opportunities which is clearly not the case here.

But hey, I'm the extremist because I'm not doing mental gymnastics to rationalize a clearly unfair and biased treatment.

Ok - I'll take that "L"

[gator]

This is not a good look to have the owner of the most successful club, so far and one of the founders of this league who has invested a substantial amount of time and money into this calling out the governing body of soccer for this country! I am making an assumption that Young and Bontis know each other quite well from business in Hamilton!

[narduch]

Are Forge even allowed to train yet? They will have less than 2 weeks to prepare. 

[Watchmen]

2 hours ago, gator said:

The CSA are not doing themselves any favours if they are trying to act like they have their house in order and with new leadership are behind our National League, this looks like they are only looking after what's best for the more stablished team which plays in an American league, the more I read into it, the more it bothers me, shameful! And to think Nick Bontis is from The Hammer!

We need to stop with the "they're looking after the American league" mentality.  It is not TFC or MLS's fault that the CSA is disorganized and unable to properly set up their own tournament. The date for the Champions League has been known for quite a while, and the CSA knew that they'd need to provide a team for it.

[narduch]

13 minutes ago, Watchmen said:

We need to stop with the "they're looking after the American league" mentality.  It is not TFC or MLS's fault that the CSA is disorganized and unable to properly set up their own tournament. The date for the Champions League has been known for quite a while, and the CSA knew that they'd need to provide a team for it.

You don't think the MLS squads don't pull the CSA's strings when it comes to the Voyageurs Cup scheduling?

Remember in 2019 when TFC got to start in the semis? That was a joke in a competitive sense.

I think what happened here is that last fall TFC were not amenable to having this match played. They were not being a team player and were not acting in good faith.

At this point playing the match Easter weekend (first week of April) would be the fairest decision.

Edited March 6, 2021 by narduch

[dnina10]

3 minutes ago, narduch said:

You don't think the MLS squads don't pull the CSA's strings when it comes to the Voyageurs Cup scheduling?

Remember in 2019 when TFC got to start in the semis? That was a joke in a competitive sense.

I think what happened here is that last fall TFC were not amenable to having this match played. They were not being a team player and acting in good faith.

At this point playing the match Easter weekend (first week of April) would be the fairest decision.

I agree with you both here. Ultimately, as I said earlier today, the primary part at fault here is the CSA, as they are the ones responsible for setting a date and time for the match reasonable to both clubs. With that said though, there is no denying that there is a bias towards the Canadian MLS teams in terms of benefactors. This is something that needs to be rectified though, as overall this is substandard for a first world country

[RS]

18 minutes ago, narduch said:

At this point playing the match Easter weekend (first week of April) would be the fairest decision.

That's just asking the CSA to get into a game of chicken with TFC in regards to releasing players for Olympic qualifiers.

Like it or not, TFC holds the upper hand here (even if they haven't explicitly used it). The CSA knows how much of a dent not having TFC's youngsters will put on the Olympic team. That definitely played a factor in this decision.

Here's another perspective I just read on Reddit. I don't necessarily fully agree with it, but it's interesting nonetheless.

 

[Watchmen]

1 hour ago, narduch said:

You don't think the MLS squads don't pull the CSA's strings when it comes to the Voyageurs Cup scheduling?

Remember in 2019 when TFC got to start in the semis? That was a joke in a competitive sense.

I think what happened here is that last fall TFC were not amenable to having this match played. They were not being a team player and were not acting in good faith.

At this point playing the match Easter weekend (first week of April) would be the fairest decision.

I don't think TFC said to the CSA "don't pick a date for the Voyagers Cup so that Forge can't train yet". And even if you think that the MLS teams are bullying the CSA in to making decisions, guess what? That's still on the CSA for letting themselves get pushed around.

Playing the game the weekend before the Champions League game is just as ridiculous. I'd rather whoever makes it to the Champions League game have a chance to win it, and playing on 4 days rest in Mexico would be difficult. 

Edited March 7, 2021 by Watchmen

[narduch]

Isn't TFC already using this match as an excuse to hold back players from the Olympic squad due to when it is scheduled?

If this game was 1st weekend of April TFC would have no excuses to do that.

[RS]

2 minutes ago, narduch said:

If this game was 1st weekend of April TFC would have no excuses to do that.

How do you figure?

[narduch]

2 minutes ago, Watchmen said:

 

Playing the game the weekend before the Champions League game is just as ridiculous. I'd rather whatever makes it to the Champions League game have a chance to win it, and playing on 4 days rest in Mexico would be difficult. 

I totally disagree with this premise.

Its way more ridiculous to force a club to play a Final with only 1 week of training.

What you are describing is fairly normal. It happens all the time. Teams play a weekend game and a mid-week Champions League game. No big deal.

[narduch]

5 minutes ago, RS said:

How do you figure?

Because the current proposed date (March 20) occurs in the middle of Olympic qualifying. The tournament is over by March 30. TFC is already warning they need to keep players off the Olympic team for the Vs Cup.

Meaning TFC players could be back to play 1st week of April

Edited March 7, 2021 by narduch