2020 Voyageurs Cup Format

[RS]

2 minutes ago, Watchmen said:

Why are Forge not allowed to train as a group?  Wouldn't they be under the same provincial guidelines as TFC?

Exemptions are given on a case by case basis. It’s likely up to the teams/organizations to negotiate individually.

[Cblake]

Forge have only 17 players on their roster right now according to their roster. They are still in off-season mode like any CPL team, signing players here and there as the opportunities present themselves. it will be interesting to see what type of team they can put out with so little training. 

[Big_M]

bad for forge but if tfc release players for national teams they could be missing quite a few players..but of course they have to keep enough Canadians for this game

[Ansem]

6 minutes ago, Watchmen said:

Why are Forge not allowed to train as a group?  Wouldn't they be under the same provincial guidelines as TFC?

He won't say

Going back to how Montreal was allowed to train in 2020, they had to negotiate with quebec and Montreal to get special permission.

TFC had time to do so since MLS had dates for their preseason. Forge was provided no dates...

Looks like Forge got is a 15 day notice. Hard to expect Forge to recall players when you aren't giving a date. You kinda trust the governing body to give you more than a 15 day notice...

Shocking incompetence from the CSA. 15 days notice ain't right. They should have just handed the trophy to TFC instead.

Forge faces humiliation, not just a loss and they won't miss their shot for a chance to crush the back to back CPL champions 

[narduch]

We may have to start living with the fact that the 2021 Cup will have the same format.

[RS]

9 hours ago, Ansem said:

TFC had time to do so since MLS had dates for their preseason. Forge was provided no dates...

That’s a big assumption. 

I’m on the side that the CSA dropped the ball, but there’s no indication that both teams weren’t informed of the March 20 date at the same time.

(Remember that it hasn’t even officially been announced yet.)

[Ansem]

6 minutes ago, RS said:

That’s a big assumption. 

I’m on the side that the CSA dropped the ball, but there’s no indication that both teams weren’t informed of the March 20 date at the same time.

(Remember that it hasn’t even officially been announced yet.)

TFC would still have an edge since they could go to the province on the premises of MLS giving them dates for the start of the preseason. IF you look at the tweet, it really looks like a last minute decisions.

Even if you're talking about it in advance, without a hard date, how can you petition the province to allow you to gather ~30 players in a pandemic?

That's on the CSA - no valid reason that they could not have decided on that date earlier when we knew very much in advance the CCL dates.

[RS]

3 minutes ago, Ansem said:

TFC would still have an edge since they could go to the province on the premises of MLS giving them dates for the start of the preseason. IF you look at the tweet, it really looks like a last minute decisions.

Even if you're talking about it in advance, without a hard date, how can you petition the province to allow you to gather ~30 players in a pandemic?

That's on the CSA - no valid reason that they could not have decided on that date earlier when we knew very much in advance the CCL dates.

We're in agreement that the larger issue lies at the feet of the CSA. However, Forge/CPL could've petitioned the province to train, as they did so last year ahead of the Island Games (well before those dates were known).

I'm not sure why they didn't (or couldn't) this time around.

[Ansem]

1 hour ago, RS said:

We're in agreement that the larger issue lies at the feet of the CSA. However, Forge/CPL could've petitioned the province to train, as they did so last year ahead of the Island Games (well before those dates were known).

I'm not sure why they didn't (or couldn't) this time around.

If you look at the tweet, different rules being applied is the main reason for the double standards

 

MLS is US based and just like the NHL, they set their own timelines / directives and negotiated with the province to accept it.

CPL - Ontario based, asking to train as early as February for no valid reasons (no dates - no go) was a non-starter. Not in a climate where the government forced businesses to close - they are not about to make such exceptions for no valid reasons.

CPL obviously petition for exemptions during the CONCACAF League - (dates were provided), why wouldn't they for the Canadian Championship? It's not like getting murdered at BMO Field is good for business 😉

[Ansem]

Wow CSA - be better.

 

 

[narduch]

Sounds like the date isn't 100% set. Forge is trying to get it moved to first weekend of April. 

[narduch]

11 minutes ago, Ansem said:

Wow CSA - be better.

 

 

I wonder if part of the issue is the CSA assumed Forge would roll over Arachaie and then the game wouldn't even be played.

[Ansem]

5 minutes ago, narduch said:

Sounds like the date isn't 100% set. Forge is trying to get it moved to first weekend of April. 

This tweet heavily implies that TFC is pulling strings to get the game done ASAP. This comes from one of the biggest TFC lover on top of it...

 

[narduch]

2 minutes ago, Ansem said:

This tweet heavily implies that TFC is pulling strings to get the game done ASAP. This comes from one of the biggest TFC lover on top of it...

 

I'm convinced that if TFC had a long playoff run this game would have been played in December. Once they crashed out early they told the CSA to fuck off.

[RS]

57 minutes ago, Ansem said:

If you look at the tweet, different rules being applied is the main reason for the double standards

 

MLS is US based and just like the NHL, they set their own timelines / directives and negotiated with the province to accept it.

CPL - Ontario based, asking to train as early as February for no valid reasons (no dates - no go) was a non-starter. Not in a climate where the government forced businesses to close - they are not about to make such exceptions for no valid reasons.

CPL obviously petition for exemptions during the CONCACAF League - (dates were provided), why wouldn't they for the Canadian Championship? It's not like getting murdered at BMO Field is good for business 😉

CPL had a date to work with: April 7. That's when CCL starts for Canada's CCL entrant. Forge could've petitioned the government under the premise that the V Cup final is a qualifier for that tournament.

Maybe they did and still got turned down, who knows? The point is that there was definitely a hard date to point to if need be.

40 minutes ago, narduch said:

Sounds like the date isn't 100% set. Forge is trying to get it moved to first weekend of April. 

If that happens then I would expect TFC to hold back at least a few players from World Cup/Olympic qualifiers.

[Ansem]

2 minutes ago, RS said:

CPL had a date to work with: April 7. That's when CCL starts for Canada's CCL entrant. Forge could've petitioned the government under the premise that the V Cup final is a qualifier for that tournament.

Maybe they did and still got turned down, who knows? The point is that there was definitely a hard date to point to if need be.

Petitioning for a date you might or might not play wouldn't move the needle ate the government - especially for a competition out of the country.

[RS]

1 minute ago, Ansem said:

Petitioning for a date you might or might not play wouldn't move the needle ate the government - especially for a competition out of the country.

Only if you have tunnel vision. An April 7 start date for CCL means that the Voyageurs Cup final has to be played before then.

Given that TFC successfully petitioned the government to start training in advance of that same final (two weeks before the other Canadian MLS clubs), it only makes sense that their opponent in that final should be extended the same courtesy.

The question is whether Forge/CPL asked. If they did and got turned down, then that's another issue altogether.

[Ansem]

1 minute ago, RS said:

Only if you have tunnel vision. An April 7 start date for CCL means that the Voyageurs Cup final has to be played before then.

You're assuming that governments are following football that close or even remotely cares. If you don't have concrete dates with a concrete plan the answer will be a hard "no"

3 minutes ago, RS said:

Given that TFC successfully petitioned the government to start training in advance of that same final (two weeks before the other Canadian MLS clubs), it only makes sense that their opponent in that final should be extended the same courtesy.

That's MLS that petitioned on their behalf -  a US Based league. That's a factor which was brought up in Kristian - different rules. That would explain why one club is allowed and the other, Ontario based with no dates - thus valid reasons would be turned down.

I don't buy one bit that CPL didn't try to get Forge to gather earlier. CONCACAF league (clear dates & plans) is a good precedent

 

[RS]

3 minutes ago, Ansem said:

You're assuming that governments are following football that close or even remotely cares. If you don't have concrete dates with a concrete plan the answer will be a hard "no"

No I'm not. The onus is on the organization that's asking for an exemption to provide evidence for why they qualify for one.

I doubt there are a ton of MLS fans in Ontario's provincial government, yet TFC got approval to start training earlier than every other team in the league for some reason. Perhaps they told the government that the final is coming up.

7 minutes ago, Ansem said:

I don't buy one bit that CPL didn't try to get Forge to gather earlier. CONCACAF league (clear dates & plans) is a good precedent

I actually don't think so either, but I'm also not just going to blindly believe that they did. And if CONCACAF League is a good precedent, then why isn't CONCACAF Champions League (and its Canadian qualifier, the Voyageurs Cup)?

[SpursFlu]

So who is the CPL afraid of that an MLS team isn't? Maybe because MLS teams are gone soon to the US and CPL has to still negotiate with these maniacs to play their league. they're being extra good boys in the meantime or no Football For You!

[Watchmen]

21 minutes ago, Ansem said:

You're assuming that governments are following football that close or even remotely cares. If you don't have concrete dates with a concrete plan the answer will be a hard "no"

Then this would indicate that the fault is with the CSA. MLS set their dates for the season, which allows TFC to train. The CSA couldn't get organized enough to allow Forge the same. Whether or not MLS is US based is irrelevant. 

[Ansem]

1 minute ago, RS said:

No I'm not. The onus is on the organization that's asking for an exemption to provide evidence for why they qualify for one.

I doubt there are a ton of MLS fans in Ontario's provincial government, yet TFC got approval to start training earlier than every other team in the league for some reason. Perhaps they told the government that the final is coming up.

Again, it was MLS that petitioned for that and wanted them to train starting in February. The league is US-based so as Kristian said in his tweet, different rules applied. Also, MLS request would have been deemed "reasonable" since you're effectively asking them to allow them to gather 2 weeks prior to the preseason.

For Forge, they would have been asking to gather up to 3+ months before the preseason because of an "hypothetical game (CCL)" based on a match for which we have no dates. (still today)

TFC's case was always the strongest case based on MLS preseason being close - Forge's wasn't without a clear date. Certainly not in an environment where businesses have been forced to shutdown and close permanently, yet you're allowing this exemption on such weak premises... politically and policy-wise - not doable

9 minutes ago, RS said:

I actually don't think so either, but I'm also not just going to blindly believe that they did.

How is it good for business to get publicly slaughtered by TFC? No one expect them to win but there a good and bad way to lose. CPL is a business, businesses protects their investment and their bottom line. Getting murdered publicly due to neglect is naysayers fantasy when you look at the business people involved with the league.

This isn't the CSA where neglect and incompetence isn't being punish nor affect their bottom line.

13 minutes ago, RS said:

And if CONCACAF League is a good precedent, then why isn't CONCACAF Champions League (and its Canadian qualifier, the Voyageurs Cup)?

They all had dates minus the V Cup which still as of today have not confirmed a date.

 

[Ansem]

1 minute ago, Watchmen said:

Then this would indicate that the fault is with the CSA. MLS set their dates for the season, which allows TFC to train. The CSA couldn't get organized enough to allow Forge the same. Whether or not MLS is US based is irrelevant. 

agreed - and as mentioned in my reply to RS - MLS request for TFC to gather earlier than the preseason date was reasonable while Forge wouldn't be unless there was a valid reason to allow them to gather 3 months before CPL starts.

[RS]

4 minutes ago, Ansem said:

Also, MLS request would have been deemed "reasonable" since you're effectively asking them to allow them to gather 2 weeks prior to the preseason.

Why would it be considered reasonable to allow TFC to gather two weeks prior to the MLS preseason unless there's an actual "reason" (a championship game) for doing so? This makes absolutely no sense.

You're trying to justify an action that goes against your own argument: TFC is allowed to train because there's a clear date (the start of the MLS season) but somehow they're also getting to start two weeks earlier than other teams because of they're going to start training eventually anyway? 

I can buy the government denying Forge because they're less important than TFC (though I would disagree with that stance), but I don't buy that TFC just got to start training two weeks early out of the goodness of the government's hearts.

[Trois Reds]

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Edited March 5, 2021 by Trois Reds