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York9 - Season Thread 2020

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Just now, Ams1984 said:

I can’t remember much about Arnone. How do you think he rates compared to our other CBs?

I'm one of the few who think Luca is a tad overrated and Thompson is injury prone. I saw him play live in Halifax this year and he was really good. 

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2 minutes ago, Mikmacdo said:

I'm one of the few who think Luca is a tad overrated and Thompson is injury prone. I saw him play live in Halifax this year and he was really good. 

I think I am going crazy sometimes. I like Luca and I can't see anyone starting over him, but I do get a feeling that he is overrated. He's made mistakes at times.

At the same time, if Thompson hasn't had all these injuries, and been more visible as a result, I wonder if he'd be heralded a little more.

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3 minutes ago, Mikmacdo said:

I'm one of the few who think Luca is a tad overrated and Thompson is injury prone. I saw him play live in Halifax this year and he was really good. 

Cool, thanks. I’ll defend my man Luca to the end though! (Mainly because I bought a New Jersey with his name/number...)

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2 hours ago, Ams1984 said:

I like this lineup a lot. I’m especially excited to see what Ugarriza and Vasconcelos will add. Some of the Argie additions are more of an unknown commodity in my opinion, but I could see one of them challenging Murofushi at CM. The reason I see Vasconcelos and Ugarriza as more of a known commodity (despite never having seen either play) is that Vasconcelos was a Corinthians product and was then loaned out to regional clubs whilst Ugarriza played in the Peruvian top league fairly regularly.

Vasconcelos didn’t play for Corinthians’ senior side (I believe) but the simple fact of having been produced by their famed academy is worth something, and he has played frequently in lower Brazilian tiers. 
 

Anyways, I guess we’ll see!

I'm right there with you on Ugarriza and Vasconcelos.

1 hour ago, ironcub14 said:

To go back to Y9 for a second, the reason I enjoy reading but never do expected starting lineups before the season is that there are just way too many surprises and unknown variables and fierce competition for the spots.

Just to take one example, we started the 2019 season with Telfer and Porter as our wingbacks in a 5-3-2. We ended the 2019 season with Abzi and Doner solidly ingrained as our fullbacks in a 4-3-3, with Telfer as our main winger and Porter as one of our CMs. The team changed dramatically over the year.

It likely won't since this is the club's 2nd season obviously, but who knows how some of those competitions for the spots may end up coming out in preseason and over the regular season? Looking forward to the preseason fixtures for sure. Maybe we'll even get to watch them this time around. 

Hmm, you've seen through my feeble attempt to get our thread back on track.

If that happens again this year Y9 is in serious trouble.  Year 2 is a whole new ball game.  We know what the players are capable of, we know what the coach likes to play and the level of the competition.    

14 minutes ago, Bison44 said:

Ricci is in training camp with Valor...was he any good last year with y9?  

Unlike Doner and Abzi, who made a similar jump last year, I don't think Ricci got enough consistent minutes last year to establish himself.  He's not a big strong CF so he was competing with Telfer and Gattas last year for minutes and we couldn't really afford to not have them on the pitch last year.  He made it ahead of Cox and Rollocks in the forward pecking order though.  

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24 minutes ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

For the degree that this sort of posting is deliberate provocation and based on alt-right theories, this poster should be banned from the board. Mods?

My words were clear. Label me however makes you feel good about yourself if that's what you need

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3 minutes ago, Stouffvillain said:

 He made it ahead of Cox and Rollocks in the forward pecking order though.  

Did he though? Cox only sat out most of the season because a knee injury. He looked great when he did play. I am actually kinda sad if stories are true that Cox has been cut. If he can sort out his injuries, I definitely think he's a starter in our league.

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33 minutes ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

For the degree that this sort of posting is deliberate provocation and based on alt-right theories, this poster should be banned from the board. Mods?

Thank you for sending me the following DM:

Quote

Hello again

I don't know if you are following the York9 thread. It has blown up just because it has been reported a women supporter was working on an all-female supporters group. As this has evolved, a person and poster @yellowsweatygorilla,  who tried to explain how racism works, explaining in a very calm and reasoned way as a racialised person his experience, has been accused of being a racist. Totally unjustifiably. The person posting these disgusting provocative alt-right views is @Spurs Fan

This is the same garbage you rewarded @Macksam for by banning my with no justification for 3 months. 

@SpursFan should be warned and if necessary, banned. Macksam is in the same boat, your tolerance has not had any benefit in calming his racist and sexist views.

If the mods are not willing to react properly, not isolating those calling out racism and rewarding the white supremacists and extreme sexists who continue to push their fanatical agenda, there will be a next step outside this board.

You are being warned. We were very close to doing so a few months ago, but felt you were trying to show some concern. But the end result is that an apparent lack of interest and what appears to be a bias in favour of one particular position is putting the entire board at risk. And it will be your fault if in the end we have to move the Voyageurs/Canadian soccer.

I have not read this entire thread because the racists and fanatics I block are piling it on, and I am not intersested.

Yours

Jeffrey

 

You were banned for harassment, bullying, and threatening moderators & the voyageur's board.

I will, once again, warn you against harassing, bullying, and threatening moderators & the voyageur's board.

For clarification, your threat above is:

Quote

If the mods are not willing to react properly, not isolating those calling out racism and rewarding the white supremacists and extreme sexists who continue to push their fanatical agenda, there will be a next step outside this board.

You are being warned. We were very close to doing so a few months ago, but felt you were trying to show some concern. But the end result is that an apparent lack of interest and what appears to be a bias in favour of one particular position is putting the entire board at risk. And it will be your fault if in the end we have to move the Voyageurs/Canadian soccer.

I generally appreciate your posts on the board, and had hoped that we had moved beyond baseless insults and uttering threats. However, as you wish to drag this out, I'll go ahead and post this publicly myself.

 

 

As you clearly have no respect for me or my decisions, I am referring the decision on all warning & banning matters to @admin. I believe @jordan is another moderator who may be able to address your concern. There may be more out there. I don't really know. You'll have to ask them.

 

As a leftist, with a wife who is a visible minority, and two children who are clearly halfies, I have found many of the responses to the Dames of York announcement & the resulting racism spiral to be disgusting, on many levels, and the back & forth interpretations/misinterpretations of responses makes me sick.

I tried ending or redirecting the conversation, I tried explaining, but everything ends with another accusation, and cries of racism/sexism. When a loading error made some posts not visible, there were cries of censorship. So clearly, locking the thread or hiding the offending posts is not an appropriate response.

Just as the conversation seemed to close, you, @Unnamed Trialist, jumped in and antagonized it again, and then proceeded to issue threats, to me, via DM.

I've dropped writers from my own site, very publicly, for less than what has come out in that conversation, but, the voyageur's board isn't my site, I don't like warning or banning people unless absolutely necessary, and quite frankly, I never wanted to be a moderator anyways. I asked to be able to post articles to the site, and at some point, despite my objections someone made me a bloody mod.

I'm finished with that ****. Go harass another board, or another moderator, because I'm not here for you to threaten & insult any longer.

 

 

@admin and @jordan and any other moderator out there can address your threats themselves. Please stop shitting on Canadian Soccer and those trying to make it better.

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30 minutes ago, Ams1984 said:

Cool, thanks. I’ll defend my man Luca to the end though! (Mainly because I bought a New Jersey with his name/number...)

I think he's a solid player. Basically the Harry Maguire of the CPL. 

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@Rintaran you are clearly upset. Take a breath.

I think you have done the right thing by letting this discussion run its course. I don't see any extreme or racist views expressed anywhere.

However, the DM you have quoted above certainly is extreme: filled with baseless and shameful accusations and a clear threat. Frankly, I am appalled.

I do feel bad for the Y9 fans who just want to talk football. If you feel so inclined, I suspect they (and I) would appreciate it if you would put the recent "Y9 All Female Supporters Group" posts into a separate thread.

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Let me just say that I am offended by the arguments being made about me on this thread by Rintaran, I consider them slanderous and patently false. I never insulted any moderator, nor did I ever act in a bullying way. In fact, after being unfairly banned for a post arguing that all white male supporter groups were not the model Canada should emulate, I remained silent for almost three months. Only after a PM to another admin was it possible for me to join the board again.

 I think it is best to stick to the facts and not make up things to justify what was clearly an error in moderating. I was first warned because I was accused, by people with a history of white supremacist and alt-right posting on this board, of being racist towards white people. I am white and male, as the few people on this board who know me can attest. Those protests should not have been given credence as a basis for warning me, but they were. That was a fundamental original error.

Since the issue was clearly an offense against me, I requested an explanation in a private message, in an offended tone, and was banned at that very moment, with no recourse.

Moderating a board has to be done with consistent criteria. You cannot ban a person without giving a proper explanation. You cannot do so on the basis of a personal message, with no recourse. You should not do so without consulting other administrators or moderators. You cannot use the banning to then spread lies about someone who cannot defend himself, being banned.

During this process, and since, I requested Rintaran to give me his real name, as I had mine, which he refused to do. There was no basis for a civilised discussion allowed. During this period I was also insulted by people on this board in a few posts, which was allowed, with no recourse to response. This is not an adequate basis for a properly run message board.

While the details about my three-month banning are probably not of interest to the majority of board members, the question of racist and sexist posting on this board just may. It is not a daily affair, perhaps not even weekly. Although certain people feel it is their right and run roughshod over the rest and it is part of their agenda; and they seem to be winning the day, as seen in this thread. A person who in a calm and reasoned way explained how racism may work, and how someone who might identify as non-white (racialised is the term used) may at times feel uncomfortable in certain soccer supporter ambiences, is then accused of being a racist. This posting is appalling and cannot be allowed. It is in clear violation of board rules, the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms, and how the governing bodies of football conceive the sport, on and off the pitch. 

As I messaged about 20 long-time board members about this situation about two months ago, I know that there is a large contigent who have heard my opinion. As I expect to now be banned under another false accusation, I can only hope those reading this will understand if at some point the issues of racism and sexism on this board emerge elsewhere, beyond its threads, and beyond the skewed control of those who are supposed to be impartially monitoring it. 

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On 3/8/2020 at 8:54 AM, Macksam said:

I have to agree with Ams1984. The moment I saw the political buzzwords of inclusive and identify, my face went 😄.

How is identify a political buzzword? Surely the gender that one identifies as, has nothing to do with whether one votes PC or NDP.

And inclusive ... how is this political?

 

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12 minutes ago, nfitz said:

How is identify a political buzzword? Surely the gender that one identifies as, has nothing to do with whether one votes PC or NDP.

And inclusive ... how is this political?

The discussion is over. You've missed it. Be thankful!

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Good to see the forums are back, I thought the debate and the discourse were tough but necessary, considering the political climate these days, the inherent political nature of soccer, and because it's very much a real issue that will be apparent in the supporters section. I thought I learned a thing or two yesterday, and I hope the gap can continue to be bridged, and if not, at least understood by the different sides.

Seems the thread had calmed down if anything. I think being a mod is an incredibly tough and thankless job, so a big thanks to you Rintaran for doing so, and hope you do whatever makes you happy. I'm a supporter of NSXI as well, I'm sure many of us are, so keep up that great work as well. I do think what Trialist said wasn't probably what you thought it meant though, I think he meant it as a threat that he will make this debate more public, as opposed to actually threatening you personally whatsoever. I mean, we are all keyboard warrior-ring it up in here lol. I would also think that most people here would agree that making personal DMs public isn't the best practice either, some things are meant to be kept personal and private between people, and I'd hope the two of you can personally hash things out.

Just wanted to end on a positive note, share a good thing that came out of this whole debate. On the Y9 Discord, one of the female Y9 supporters shared yesterday afternoon, after she heard about and read through this thread, that she was a passionate Y9 supporter, but was uncomfortable with some of the homophobic language she heard from one or two supporters in the section. Later that day, she happily shared that one of the Gen IX capos read her message, and reached out to her by IG, and apologized on behalf of the group, and promised it's not something that would tolerate, and to bring it to their attention if it happened again. She felt quite thankful for that response.

I know that these conversations often happen online rather than offline, because it's quite a difficult and tough conversation to have in person. I've seen it happen before for weeks in a FB group for Ottawa supporters a few years ago, which is why I felt it was important not to shy away from this conversation for Y9 this week. I hope people continue to keep an open mind to all the people and ideas and topics they come across as we all support the CPL.

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5 hours ago, vancanman said:

I'd read there'd been a brief tempest, but I hope it's blown over now.

On the plus side, the leak in my roof seems to have been sealed... 

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Posted (edited)
18 hours ago, yellowsweatygorilla said:

 

I'll clarify. Race is a social construct, but its continued resonance through histories of marginalization and systemic racism makes it a reality in our society. Unless you want to deny colonialization, slavery, indentured servitude and its continued relevance in the form of income disparities, disproportionate incarceration, etc., it's clear that race, despite its lack of groundings in biological differences, carry social weight.

Pointing out that people in our society are arbitrarily categorized and face differential treatment, thus necessitating the need for policies and practices to ensure inclusion, is not akin to doing the categorization. This of course applies to gender and sexuality (to bring it back to where this conversation began). And guess what, calling out discrimination is a good first step to ensuring that people confronted with discrimination feel comfortable participating in certain spaces. I know as a racialized supporter myself, I haven't always felt welcome Canadian football spaces, and this type of discussion right now doesn't help. I am just thankful that most people here recognize the need to address these issues in the sport.



Edit: Re-reading my initial post and the response, I wonder if there might be confusion about what I meant. From my recollection, though a mod has contested it, @Unnamed Trialist was banned after a discussion where he had complained that football fandom spaces seem to be predominantly white, and that non-white fans don't always feel welcome in the space. Macksam then suggested that this complaint was 'bigotry against white people'. I am saying that Macksam's response is groundless. As groundless as suggestions that anti-racism efforts are themselves 'reverse racism'.

1) The issue is that counter arguments can be made for all your indirect evidence like income inequality and the like. I come from a minority community that has thrived politically and economically over the last 40 years without any extra help so I am of opinion we don't need policies and practices for any of those things.

2) Sure, if you actually had evidence discrimination took place which for the most part you and people like you, such as UT never do. It's almost always a disingenuous attack on someone or some group based on what you perceive rather than what the situation actually is. See point 4 below as an example of what I mean.

3) I'm Punjabi, Sikh and I have never felt unwelcome in any soccer space. 

4) UT took issue with a video of a group of Norwich fans and said it was a bad example as there were too many white men. It was disingenuous because he made the assumption that these fans actively discriminate against people of colour to ensure that only white guys attend the match, which is foolish to assume. Look at a club like Arsenal or Chelsea and you will see plenty of minorities in the stands. It may just be that Norwich fans are predominantly white, which wouldn't be unfounded if the area the club is in is mostly resided by white people.

5) I don't believe in the term reverse racism. Racism is racism and yes, you can be racist towards white people. 

People don't see race these days. All you have to do is carry yourself well, workout, maintain good hygiene, know how to carry a conversation, be a little charming and people will forget all about what you look like within 5 minutes of meeting you.

 

Edited by Macksam

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Posted (edited)
14 hours ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

Let me just say that I am offended by the arguments being made about me on this thread by Rintaran, I consider them slanderous and patently false.

A person who in a calm and reasoned way explained how racism may work, and how someone who might identify as non-white (racialised is the term used) may at times feel uncomfortable in certain soccer supporter ambiences, is then accused of being a racist.

You accused me of racist and sexist positing in your private message to Rintaran, which is more evidence of you being disingenuous. Please cite where I have ever been those things? I consider what you said about me to be slanderous and patently false. 

As for the bolded, I calmly explained how racism might not be at play here but you still accuse me of some horrible things which are not true. Is that not appalling? 

Edited by Macksam

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34 minutes ago, Macksam said:

3) I'm Punjabi, Sikh and I have never felt unwelcome in any soccer space.

This is good, but I would suggest that your personal experiences may not speak to the whole. Canada is obviously not the worst place for this kind of thing, but you can see example after example after example of instances of racism in European football. In Canada it tends to mostly take place in hockey and is more directed towards Indigenous peoples, but there is still a **** ton of racism here.

38 minutes ago, Macksam said:

People don't see race these days. All you have to do is carry yourself well, workout, maintain good hygiene, know how to carry a conversation, be a little charming and people will forget all about what you look like within 5 minutes of meeting you.

Tell that to the women who have to choose between wearing a hijab or having a job in Quebec. Tell that to those fear mongering about refugees from the Middle East. Tell that to east Asian people being viewed as carriers of the coronavirus. Tell that to Senator Lynn Beyak who published racist letters about Indigenous people on her website.  Tell that to people who still regularly hear slurs directed towards them (such as the first four letters of the nation of Pakistan, which was an especially commonly used insult when I was growing up). Tell that to my Arab partner who gets pulled aside for "random" screening every ******* time.

You might personally be lucky and have somehow avoided racism being directed towards you, but that does not seem to match up to the lived experience of many other minority groups.

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1 hour ago, Macksam said:

People don't see race these days. All you have to do is carry yourself well, workout, maintain good hygiene, know how to carry a conversation, be a little charming and people will forget all about what you look like within 5 minutes of meeting you.

Imagine being this confident about being so naive. 

This convo is over. Post about York9 in here or don’t post at all.

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