Match Thread: November 2, 2019 - Cavalry FC v Forge FC - Finals - 2nd Leg

[gator]

Once again not a mention of the match on the TSN website, that is beyond disgraceful!

[RS]

3 hours ago, narduch said:

Will it be hard to take this year's MLS Cup Champions seriously? Considering how well LAFC did in the regular season?

At least LAFC got some silverware for it. 
 

CPL needs to acknowledge the regular season better.

[narduch]

37 minutes ago, RS said:

At least LAFC got some silverware for it. 
 

CPL needs to acknowledge the regular season better.

I agree. 

If they are going to go with the split season they should have trophies for them. 

I have a feeling though that they may abandon the split season once the league is large enough. This is total speculation on my part though 

Edited November 3, 2019 by narduch

[RJB]

3 hours ago, narduch said:

Will it be hard to take this year's MLS Cup Champions seriously? Considering how well LAFC did in the regular season?

The TFC has a mildly above average season:  9th. If they win, it will be a darn shame given the LAFC was dominant. If MLS cup is just a cup and not a league championship then it’s NBD. Just don’t call it league champion, that’s LAFC. Same with CPL, Cavalry is league champion, Forge won the cup. 

[Shortdutchcanuck]

7 minutes ago, RJB said:

The TFC has a mildly above average season:  9th. If they win, it will be a darn shame given the LAFC was dominant. If MLS cup is just a cup and not a league championship then it’s NBD. Just don’t call it league champion, that’s LAFC. Same with CPL, Cavalry is league champion, Forge won the cup. 

It has been shown again and again in North American sports that regular season champions are often pretenders.  Sure you were more consistent against mediocre teams, and later in the season teams that had nothing on the line.  Maybe you were lucky and has less injury issues.  Maybe you were lucky and met more teams when they had injury issues or were enduring poor spells. 

Then you go nose to nose against another quality team in a more intense situation and you are found wanting.  The question playoffs bring up: can you impose your will on another team when everything is on the line?

I don't like the MLS single game playoff--too much luck involved.  And obviously a 7 game series is out of the question.

I do like the idea some have been floating about a 4 team playoff for now with a home and home and a single game final.  

[dyslexic nam]

27 minutes ago, RJB said:

The TFC has a mildly above average season:  9th. If they win, it will be a darn shame given the LAFC was dominant. If MLS cup is just a cup and not a league championship then it’s NBD. Just don’t call it league champion, that’s LAFC. Same with CPL, Cavalry is league champion, Forge won the cup. 

Except that the MLS Cup isn’t just a cup - it determines the league champion.  Full stop.  No one actually cares that much that LAFC won the regular season.  Ask an LAFC fan if they would rather win the regular season or win the playoffs.  I bet damn near 100% of them  want the cup.  

The Ottawa Senators won the regular season a couple of times a bunch of years ago.  Sure it is a nice little accolade, and the get the President’s Trophy for their caee, but at the end of the day no one really cared.   Because the league, the players, and the fans all know that it is winning the Cup that matters most as crowns the champions.  Same as in MLS and same as in CPL at this point.   

You could make the argument that the current CPL playoffs are not long/extensive enough to really identify the true champions, but that is just a matter of tweaking the format- it doesn’t change the fact that the playoffs determine the ultimate winner.  

[SoccMan]

3 minutes ago, Shortdutchcanuck said:

It has been shown again and again in North American sports that regular season champions are often pretenders.  Sure you were more consistent against mediocre teams, and later in the season teams that had nothing on the line.  Maybe you were lucky and has less injury issues.  Maybe you were lucky and met more teams when they had injury issues or were enduring poor spells. 

Then you go nose to nose against another quality team in a more intense situation and you are found wanting.  The question playoffs bring up: can you impose your will on another team when everything is on the line?

I don't like the MLS single game playoff--too much luck involved.  And obviously a 7 game series is out of the question.

I do like the idea some have been floating about a 4 team playoff for now with a home and home and a single game final.  

Ya me too even though the MLS one and done playoffs this year have been exciting I still like the two game home and away, don’t like the fact of teams not getting any home playoff games. For both leagues I would do away with the total goals and away goal rule to break a tie if both teams are tied with the same amount of goals after two games . Make it a two game total points series. 3 points for a win 1 for a tie . If both team are tied on points after two games then you do two 15 minute overtime periods if still tied you go to a shoot out. What this does is it guarantees a team is never out of it going into that second game. If for example Forge had a 5-0 lead after the first game going into the second game in Calgary you can almost guarantee that Cavalry were already done going into that second game in Calgary . Try selling tickets to that second game when your team is already down 5-0 good luck. However, if it’s total points all the Cavalry would have to do is just get any type of win by any score and force overtime and have a chance of still winning it.  

[Footscray]

12 hours ago, Lofty said:

Honestly, I'm really not the language police but this was just too tempting to resist. I hope it will be received in the humorous spirit in which it is intended!

Asterisk: *

Asterix:

Lol yeah for sure... stick one of those on the shield for this year, way more fun.

[Footscray]

1 hour ago, Shortdutchcanuck said:

It has been shown again and again in North American sports that regular season champions are often pretenders.  Sure you were more consistent against mediocre teams, and later in the season teams that had nothing on the line.  Maybe you were lucky and has less injury issues.  Maybe you were lucky and met more teams when they had injury issues or were enduring poor spells. 

Then you go nose to nose against another quality team in a more intense situation and you are found wanting.  The question playoffs bring up: can you impose your will on another team when everything is on the line?

Sorry but I think this is bull.

All playoffs show is who had the hot streaky team at the right time.

Which is fine but if your goal is to show who the better team was for the whole season it's a major fail.  And winning the games against bad teams is a part of that too.  A team that only gets up for the big games is not the best team across the board.

Your team was the best team for the whole year but has major injuries the wrong week... too bad.

Also makes regular season nhl games in November for example pretty meaningless.  You're starting to see teams coasting through, as long as they win 3 out of every 5 roughly they qualify and one extra home game per round is such a minor advantage.  I think you have to be half brain dead to be killing yourself as a fan or player for 1 of 80 games 6 months from the finish line.

[Bison44]

2 minutes ago, Footscray said:

Sorry but I think this is bull.

All playoffs show is who had the hot streaky team at the right time.

Which is fine but if your goal is to show who the better team was for the whole season it's a major fail.  And winning the games against bad teams is a part of that too.  A team that only gets up for the big games is not the best team across the board.

Your team was the best team for the whole year but has major injuries the wrong week... too bad.

Also makes regular season nhl games in November for example pretty meaningless.  You're starting to see teams coasting through, as long as they win 3 out of every 5 roughly they qualify and one extra home game per round is such a minor advantage.  I think you have to be half brain dead to be killing yourself as a fan or player for 1 of 80 games 6 months from the finish line.

Dont even try to compare the NHL's 2 month long playoff ordeal to a 1vs 2 season ending faceoff. There is nothing wrong with a regular season that separates the cream (top 2 or 3) and cedes them for a short man to man finish.  If you want to be the man you have to beat the man...WOOOOOOO!!!  How many times in the european leagues. is the champion decided 3-4 weeks before the season is over??  I'm sorry but the champ is the guy who wins the last game of the season.  

[Shortdutchcanuck]

3 hours ago, Footscray said:

Sorry but I think this is bull.

All playoffs show is who had the hot streaky team at the right time.

Which is fine but if your goal is to show who the better team was for the whole season it's a major fail.  And winning the games against bad teams is a part of that too.  A team that only gets up for the big games is not the best team across the board.

Your team was the best team for the whole year but has major injuries the wrong week... too bad.

Also makes regular season nhl games in November for example pretty meaningless.  You're starting to see teams coasting through, as long as they win 3 out of every 5 roughly they qualify and one extra home game per round is such a minor advantage.  I think you have to be half brain dead to be killing yourself as a fan or player for 1 of 80 games 6 months from the finish line.

A lot of this is personal preference and which system you were raised with.  Neither is a foolproof way of determining the best team.  Teams go on streaks and have good or bad luck in the course of a regular season too.  I mean personally if I see Man City finish 3 pts up on Liverpool I don't think Man City were head and shoulders the best team, I think they probably caught a few more breaks here and there, but man, I'd love to see the two in a home and home for all the marbles.

[RJB]

23 hours ago, dyslexic nam said:

Except that the MLS Cup isn’t just a cup - it determines the league champion.  Full stop.  No one actually cares that much that LAFC won the regular season.  Ask an LAFC fan if they would rather win the regular season or win the playoffs.  I bet damn near 100% of them  want the cup.  

The Ottawa Senators won the regular season a couple of times a bunch of years ago.  Sure it is a nice little accolade, and the get the President’s Trophy for their caee, but at the end of the day no one really cared.   Because the league, the players, and the fans all know that it is winning the Cup that matters most as crowns the champions.  Same as in MLS and same as in CPL at this point.   

You could make the argument that the current CPL playoffs are not long/extensive enough to really identify the true champions, but that is just a matter of tweaking the format- it doesn’t change the fact that the playoffs determine the ultimate winner.  

Then what’s the point of playing a long regular season?  What you’ve said above is true, but only because we say it is. It is not objectively the case. Playoffs are there because in North America they make more money, and we are all complicit in that with our expectations. 

They make no sense in terms of picking a league champion. Obviously they’re fun, but you can’t tell me that if The TFC wins MLS cup that they’re a better team than LAFC. “Champions,” sure, but the best team?  

[narduch]

It is a bit of a joke though. Around week 27 it looked like TFC may not even make the playoffs. They went on a run and ended up 4th in the Conference. Essentially they got hot at the right time.

Edited November 4, 2019 by narduch

[dyslexic nam]

19 minutes ago, RJB said:

Then what’s the point of playing a long regular season?  What you’ve said above is true, but only because we say it is. It is not objectively the case. Playoffs are there because in North America they make more money, and we are all complicit in that with our expectations. 

They make no sense in terms of picking a league champion. Obviously they’re fun, but you can’t tell me that if The TFC wins MLS cup that they’re a better team than LAFC. “Champions,” sure, but the best team?  

Regular seasons make sense in terms of qualification for a playoff.  If we had a 4 team playoff, all of the teams involved would have had meaningful games pretty much right until the end.

And I would reverse your point - if league supremacy is solely based on who wins the regular season, what is the point for everyone mathematically eliminated with 4 or 5 weeks to go.  In both of the mini seasons, the bottom teams were out of the running for a large portion of the season wind-down.  Either, those games are meaningful in and of themselves (which would also be true in a playoff scenario) or they are dependent on their ability to contribute to the ultimate achievement - either winning the league or getting into the playoffs (in which case, playoff qualification would seem to lead to more meaningful games for more teams).  \

 

"...you can’t tell me that if The TFC wins MLS cup that they’re a better team than LAFC. "

They each represent different things.  I think the MLS playoffs are long enough that they actually do represent a crowning achievement.  I think players play up to whatever they see as the priority.  They may go all out in a playoff scenario whereas they don't go the extra mile for a regular season game.  Same with playing with a knock, etc.  Does that mean that their focus during the playoffs is lesser?  Not to me.

I think the one criticism with the CPL playoffs is that it is too short.  You either need  to go all in and have something more meaningful (4 team home and aways would seem to be more reasonable with a league this size) or drop it all together. 

[Tigers]

On 11/3/2019 at 12:26 AM, Lofty said:

when you throw all the regular season points into the trash before you start the play offs...

You don't though. They turn into seedings, and with that home advantage and better schedules for better teams.

I'm of the belief that to be the best, you have to be long-term consistent (ie be good enough to qualify) AND win when it's do or die (Win in the playoffs).

Teams play to the format they're in. There was a playoff set out at the start, Forge didn't need to win the fall season to make it, so they didn't.  You can't look at Cavalry and just say well they came first in both, when Forge and other teams as well would play differently if the playoff wasn't there.

 

I think at 7 teams, you don't want half the league to qualify. 3 seems best to me, 3rd @ 2nd, winner @ 1st.

IF a third place team goes on the road and wins two knockout games, and supposedly "better" teams couldn't finish them off with home advantage and maybe a bye, then that team earned it to me.