USA vs Canada - Friday Nov 15th, Orlando FL

[Floortom]

3 minutes ago, CanadianSoccerFan said:

 

 

 

I mentioned this in another thread.  The best way to do this is through a rather ethically questionable route of playing crap teams a ton of times.  For example, invite Tahiti or an overrated Caribbean minnow to Vancouver in January.  Using a squad of offseason CPL/MLS players you could play that opponent again and again and again and again every single day for a few weeks until you've racked up a ton of points.  Even if each win is only worth 1 or 2 points due to the low multiplier(see below) , it adds up if you just do it by volume of games.  Of course, the CSA won't have the balls to do this but the fact remains that the rankings can be gamed using this method.  

 

I remember you mentioned this and it really piqued my interest. Think there are some problems with this idea :

1. Would essentially troll our way to the hex and not exactly cover ourselves in glory.
2. I think the cost would be prohibitive too.

3. Would be difficult to get payers released I think. 

[Obinna]

I don’t think a lack of talent is our issue. It is a lack of big game experience. We can talk about the tactical flaws all we want, but it was our individual errors and inability to control our emotions which stand out the most. Good response in the second half, but once again the panic got the best of us.

We have the talent, but we need more big games like this. The collective experience in big games is where the gulf is between us and the USA, not talent. They have played in the WC and Hex and gone deep in Gold Cups and have won them, we haven’t. There is no substitute for that.

It would have been nice to crush the confidence of the US and possibly do some irrevocable damage to their psyche. I am annoyed we let them off the hook. But this is about us, not them. We miss a chance at more high stake games now and put the Hex in real jeopardy.

If we do manage to find a way there, I hope this nations League and Gold Cup were enough prep. It does not feel like enough prep though. Maybe we are better off going the minnow route because if we have a poor start in the Hex due to our naivety, it could be over after 2 games. We saw last cycle how the USA could not recover from their poor start and I don’t know if we are mature enough to compete in the Hex starting this fall.

It wouldn’t be the worse thing in the world to beat up on some small islands this fall. We can slowely bring in some fringe cpl guys in the process. Then we can grow into these two-legged do-or-die fixtures with a Guatemala, then a T&T, then a Panama, each one more challenging than the next. There is no margin for error, but if we can get through these games we gain the experience we are lacking right now and they are match ups we should win based on talent, even with our lack of experience. In the Hex we may have the talent to compete, but we may lose games because of inexperience.

So whether we make the Hex or not, I will try not to be too concerned. The Hex was never a golden ticket, we must remember. For our talented, yet inexperienced group, the Hex may be a trap. We should pull out all the stops to get there, but if we fail we fail and our journey and dream continues.

Edited November 16, 2019 by Obinna

[CanadianSoccerFan]

12 minutes ago, Floortom said:

I remember you mentioned this and it really piqued my interest. Think there are some problems with this idea :

1. Would essentially troll our way to the hex and not exactly cover ourselves in glory.
2. I think the cost would be prohibitive too.

3. Would be difficult to get payers released I think. 

1) This is a mess of CONCACAF's own making with the asinine format.  This would teach them a hard lesson.  We need to stop being so damn Canadian and start being ruthless bastards. 

2) True.  Probably not cheap.  

3) We don't need the euro players released for this.  If it's January then all the MLS/CPL guys are available.   

Edited November 16, 2019 by CanadianSoccerFan

[harrycoyster]

11 minutes ago, Floortom said:

I remember you mentioned this and it really piqued my interest. Think there are some problems with this idea :

1. Would essentially troll our way to the hex and not exactly cover ourselves in glory.
2. I think the cost would be prohibitive too.

3. Would be difficult to get payers released I think. 

The costs would be insane. But one inexpensive game would be to play the US in their Jan camp. Problem is I don't love our chances against the US without our European players.

[Ansem]

About Herdman comment on Adekugbe not playing enough minutes... it's been debunked 

 

[TOcanadafan]

1 hour ago, DavemTFC said:

Thanks for coming to my TED-Talk everyone

Thank you for this well-thought out, well written post... you said it a lot better than I tried.  Hopefully we get more post-game / overall analysis and thoughts from you after by some miracle we qualify for the Hex.

[BearcatSA]

Starting Davies at LB instead of in a more advanced role where he still could provide LB defensive support was akin to kissing the American ring.  

[Big_M]

Herdman said adekugbe played 2 of the last 6..wrong because he started 2 of the last 6..also subbed in 3 of them..but still davies played much more minutes then him in oct and nov..herdman didnt talk about minutes since the gold cup but the last 6 games

[Macksam]

My thoughts, it was all about the defense, there defense did an adequate job, ours did not. 

Despite controlling most of the possession and playing more in their half, they were able to score on pretty much all their opportunities that could have easily been avoided by any half-way decent defending. 

We need a massive upgrade in that department. 

[WestHamCanadianinOxford]

I honestly think a lot of problems came from making the wing backs the only real width, which makes them responsibility for a lot of the pitch. 

Put Davies at actual left back with a winger/forward or midfielder ahead of him, we are more solid.  (Same on the other side) Davies has played behind dedicated wide men at Bayern.

Or make him the winger and have a dedicated LB behind him.  

I feared they would adjust if we packed the centre again and really only having one player wide on each side invited them out there.

 

Edited November 16, 2019 by WestHamCanadianinOxford

[villus]

48 minutes ago, BearcatSA said:

Starting Davies at LB instead of in a more advanced role where he still could provide LB defensive support was akin to kissing the American ring.  

Especially when we played a more defensive lineup with Miller playing as a defensive LB that didn't really venture forward a lot last game which worked well.  This game was going to be more defensive since they're going to attack a lot more and that's the game to play Davies as a LB?? It's braindead, there's no execusing it from a logic/tactics point of view and Herdman either knew it or is too arrogant to realize his mistake he's made a few times of neutering our best player and actually hurting our fairly week defensive even more playing him in a back 4.  We played 4 essentially central midfielders in the first game in Toronto with one attacking RB and a LB who stayed home, we set up to counter and the key was Davies on the loose when we got the USA to turn it over with our fairly defensive midfield, it worked well and in the reverse he decided to give us less ability to break out of midfield and attack on the counter and played essentially also less defensive with two attacking fullbacks which would maybe make sense if we expected to have a ton of possession and allow them to park forward and play as wingers, which was never the case.  It just makes absolutely no sense on multiple points, we may not have the most talent in the world which actually makes it important we get the game flow and our counter attacking posture more important, if we were gonna line up like that play Hoilett instead of Cavallini at least to give us more ability to take on defenders 1v1 which you'd expect a lot of when countering a team trying to attack at home.  

[Obinna]

What we know about Herdman is that he’s willing to take gambles and sometimes they pay off and sometimes they don’t. Where he needs to improve is when he chooses to take gambles. Why take a gamble on a game where we only need a point?

I get the sense that he feels he is spoiled for riches in terms of the talent he gets to work with, and that doesn’t lend itself to a pragmatic approach. The words “tier one front six” come to mind. The games are exciting, i’ll grant him that, but there are times we need to focus on defensive solidity and even park the bus. That’s the reality.

He could put 9 men behind the ball and throw Davies up front solo and I bet it would work in situations like last night.

[SpursFlu]

I think Herdman made the wrong choice but ultimately the problem was Davies didn't follow the script. It as compounded by the mistake right of the bat that turned in to a goal. And then he was chasing it the entire game. I'm convinced now that he should be playing as a forward for us. If for no other reason he's enjoying himself with Canada. Also I think like someone else pointed out. He's our best LB, he's our best winger, he's our best midfielder, he's our best striker, he's probably our best center back. Just put him up front and let him do his thing. That play at the end of the game where he dribbled around 4 guys in their box was like some Messi shit. It was nuts. You dont see that. I also think Terry Dunfield needs to tone down the criticism a bit on the broadcast. He's another one that guy

Edited November 16, 2019 by SpursFlu

[N1ckbr0wn]

All I can say is... Tomori and Ferreira looking good right about now...

[Kent]

12 hours ago, Obinna said:

On the bright side, I would rather Herdman makes this mistake now than WCQ.

I'd actually rather we win this game and lose to the USA in USA in WCQ. Because this loss might mean we don't make it to the hex, but the loss in USA in the hex would be about par for the course for most teams. Win your home games and get a couple good results away, but the Mexico and USA away games likely most teams would lose anyways.

[SpursFlu]

If your going to play Davies at LB you better have someone in front of him who has the slightest desire to track back. Who was that person yesterday?

[Shortdutchcanuck]

Going into this game most expected Berhalter to stick rigidly to his plan and he didn't.  They almost did to us exactly what we did to them in Toronto: better gameplan, outworked and outhustled us, pressed in our end and sat back in theirs and invited us to break them down, which we were seldom able to do.  Then counter with numbers when possible.  This was how the US used to win, sometimes against better teams, by being physical and strong defensively and finishing their chances.  So although American media are claiming this as a sign that the US has much better talent overall, I'd say  Berhalter's change in tactics was a sign of respect for our talent.

 

[ted]

9 hours ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

I'm not a fan of Herdman and remain skeptical about him, but losing heavily to the USA and Mexico is going to happen sometimes,

Sometimes? It has been the standard expectation for 30 years and yet Herdman's team did what no other team has done in that period: beat the US.

[Shortdutchcanuck]

Herdman argues Davies is our best LB which is not the point at all.  Without anyone who could stretch things on the wings we provided little danger to their backs.  Cav and David occupied too many of same spaces.  Not enough wingplay, none of Oso or Arfield or Kaye a threat one on one down wings.  Best LB or not Davies was needed up front.  He completely changes how US have to defend.

[SpursFlu]

The game was bizarre in that on the road we played like the better team who needed 3 pts. The US had no sustained pressure. I think the early goal is just really what turned that game on its head

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

8 minutes ago, ted said:

Sometimes? It has been the standard expectation for 30 years and yet Herdman's team did what no other team has done in that period: beat the US.

Did you even bother reading the rest of my post before hitting reply? I argued something similar to that in the last sentence.

[Bison44]

28 minutes ago, N1ckbr0wn said:

All I can say is... Tomori and Ferreira looking good right about now...

If we are dreaming how about Jan Stam and Jason Devos circa 1999.  

[Kent]

4 hours ago, jordan said:

He was poor, you have zero evidence it’s a fixed league though.

Some reading if you are interested.

From 2016: https://www.b92.net/eng/news/society.php?yyyy=2016&mm=03&dd=18&nav_id=97410

This isn't nearly as explicit, but an interview with a "Serbian Football expert" mentions "If they were serious about helping small sides they should investigate the individual countries football associations and figure out why they don’t punish match-fixing."
https://www.bettingcircle.co.uk/the-state-of-serbian-club-football/

From 2018. This is about a Champions League game, but it is about Red Star specifically: https://www.straitstimes.com/sport/football/football-faced-with-match-fixing-scandal-red-star-belgrade-adopt-code-of-silence-in

The last paragraph is the most interesting from this wikipedia entry: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Match_fixing_in_association_football#Serbia

Hard to know how much stock to put in this one from 2014, but there is an unsubstantiated claim about a news paper making a bet based on how they believed the matches would be fixed: https://www.sportsbookreview.com/forum/soccer-betting/2880763-whole-serbian-league-fixed.html There is also a link in that forum in Bosnian (according to google translate) that is hard to fully understand with google translate, but seems to indicate there is widespread match fixing.

[Kadenge]

 Essentially we  were beaten by a team of MLS players; played like we were the home team with total disrespect for the #2 team in our region. With the lack of quality at CB we simply cannot play with 2 attacking fullbacks. Herdman's tactics were brilliant on Oct 15th but to play the US away and go all out attack..wow. It was clear from the post game comments that the game plan was for Davies to attack Dest. Look our players did not help with a sloppy performance and perhaps the tactics would have worked if everyone played to their potential, but that was a high risk low reward aproach as we only needed a tie. Sometimes the best approach is the obvious one?

[villus]

This is the worst USA team in some while, they've been really bad for a few years and have regressed under Berhalter and this is arguably one of the best Canadian teams we've had.  We shouldn't simply accept losing here, we had a very good blue print from the previous game that worked and we deviated from that with not logical reasons why.  Our back 4 controlled the USA fairly well, Davies and David were fantastic giving the USA tons of problems and we deviated from that and then after we went a goal down we panicked and got punished for it.  That's all on the coach.  Lots of games we'd lose to USA in the States and it would simply be us being at a much lower level, but that's not necessarily the case here we showed very poorly and were not set up properly and didn't adjust.