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USA vs Canada - Friday Nov 15th, Orlando FL

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12 minutes ago, Kent said:

No, you could only draw that conclusion if their results in the respective leagues were similar.

Liam Millar - 751 minutes, 1 goal, 1 assist

Tristan Borges - 1974 minutes, 13 goals, 5 assists

The fact Borges did so much better in CPL than Millar is doing in Scotland is what makes this a conversation.

Perhaps but it also depends on the talent you are playing against on a weekly basis. Don’t get me wrong-I believe Borges had a strong season.  Borges is now done for the season and there are still 25 games or so left in the SPFL.  I’m fortunate to watch both leagues regularly and Millar plays against better competition every single match.

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3 minutes ago, JamboAl said:

Perhaps but it also depends on the talent you are playing against on a weekly basis. Don’t get me wrong-I believe Borges had a strong season.  Borges is now done for the season and there are still 25 games or so left in the SPFL.  I’m fortunate to watch both leagues regularly and Millar plays against better competition every single match.

I get that. The point is just that there is a lot of grey, and your earlier comment seemed to try to paint it very black and white. Just look at the CPL season. There are players that came to the league from various levels of leagues. Some of the lower league players did better than the higher league players, because of all the grey.

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I'm obviously a huge Borges fan being a Forge supporter and really enjoyed watching him play this season, he was arguably the best player in the league and has a bright future! CPL quality way exceeded my expectations but I'm with @JamboAl on this one, Millar is facing much stiffer competition in the SPL right now and has been integrated to the squad so he would get the the call over Borges if it was my decision!

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3 minutes ago, spitfire said:

So just wanted to ask. What division is the CPL in the Canadian/North American tier system. So we agree MLS is top then where is the CPL 

there is a point to this question. 

MLS then usl then cpl. For me the gap is much greater between mls and usl versus usl and cpl

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5 minutes ago, spitfire said:

So just wanted to ask. What division is the CPL in the Canadian/North American tier system. So we agree MLS is top then where is the CPL 

there is a point to this question. 

I don't think it works like that. It's a subjective thing. Like asking what division the Portuguese league fits in to UEFA. It's a goid way to start an argument. But since we're playing along here is my opinion. Because I tend to have an opinion on everything 

1) LigaMX

2) MLS

3) Costa Rica

4) Honduras

5) CPL

7) El Salvadore

6) Panama

7) Guatemala

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CPL is Div 1 in Canada.  Yes, the MLS teams are stronger.  They play in a USSF league. 

As for USL being superior to CPL, I am not sure I would agree.  HFX, one of the weakest teams in CPL, pushed Fury hard in their first year of existence (losing 5-4 on aggregate).  Put Fury against Forge or Cavalry and I am not sure anyone would conclude USL superiority. 

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My lineup for the 15th

                              Cavallini

                                 David
                   Arfield               Osorio

 Davies                                             Laryea    
                                 Hutch

                 Cornelius Vitoria Henry

                                 Borjan

it pains me to leave Piette and Miller off the starting XI, but we need players who have played in the last month. Hutch has been an absolute ace lately playing at a very high level, and we need his experienced composure anchoring that midfield in what is gonna be one of the biggest games for a lot of these young guys in their national career. I have Oso ahead of Kaye because of recent form, and no arguing with his effort last game. Cav and David haven’t been their usual self in club play as of recently, but they always show for the Nats so there was no reason for me to replace either with an inform Larin or home stadium favourite Akindele. 

 

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8 minutes ago, SpursFlu said:

I like bringing Hutch back in but an on form Pulisic and playing away with what would have to considered a highly motivated side. I would like to another ball winning midfielder next to Hutch

This is true, in this case I’d move David from a 9 to a striker, replace Oso with Piette moving him farther back on the pitch, while having Arfield a bit more centralized on the attacking side of the ball 

                     David    Cavallini

                         
                             Arfield

Davies           Hutch Piette      Laryea

               Cornelius Vitoria Henry

                              Borjan

 

Edited by N1ckbr0wn

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33 minutes ago, SpursFlu said:

I don't think it works like that. It's a subjective thing. Like asking what division the Portuguese league fits in to UEFA. It's a goid way to start an argument. But since we're playing along here is my opinion. Because I tend to have an opinion on everything 

1) LigaMX

2) MLS

3) Costa Rica

4) Honduras

5) CPL

7) El Salvadore

6) Panama

7) Guatemala

You have to be pulling this ranking out of your ass unless you have watched the El Salvador, Panama, and Guatemalan league even casually

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5 minutes ago, SpursFlu said:

Completely out of my ass. Where else could I pull that sort info from

Excluding the CPL (not enough data yet) you could pull that sort of info from the CONCACAF Club Index! Note that Guatemala is low in part because of their ban a little while back, plus they got a new slot in the CONCACAF League this year (like Canada).

Country Number of slots Average
MEX 4 94.5
USA 4 63.25
CAN 2 44.25
PAN 4 38.375
CRC 4 35.875
HON 4 33.125
SLV 3 33.16666667
CCC 4 21.375
NCA 2 20
BLZ 1 18
GUA 3 17.66666667

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12 minutes ago, Kent said:

Excluding the CPL (not enough data yet) you could pull that sort of info from the CONCACAF Club Index! Note that Guatemala is low in part because of their ban a little while back, plus they got a new slot in the CONCACAF League this year (like Canada).

 

Country Number of slots Average
MEX 4 94.5
USA 4 63.25
CAN 2 44.25
PAN 4 38.375
CRC 4 35.875
HON 4 33.125
SLV 3 33.16666667
CCC 4 21.375
NCA 2 20
BLZ 1 18
GUA 3 17.66666667

So where should I place the CPL . I should use data that excludes the CPL? Got it

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Comparing leagues is fun but can be frustrating. Just because Borges plays in the CPL, doesn't mean he couldn't play at a higher level. For that reason, I don't like to read too much into club affiliation. Form has to count for something as well.

Millar and Borges are about the same age and at this point I don't think you could argue one is head and shoulders above the other. Millar has been a regular call-up for Canada's senior team, but considering Borges great season, I wouldn't be shocked or disappointed if he was dropped for Borges this time around. 

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2 hours ago, Olympique_de_Marseille said:

@gator or others who have seen both Borges and Millar play - can Borges take on guys 1 v 1 the way Millar does?

Both are likely to be 60th minute or later subs in the #CanMNT context given the current squad; so who can have a more explosive 20 to 30 minutes on the pitch?

He sure can and as I mentioned earlier I think Borges is a really good player, I hope he plays for our Olympic team and really shows what he can do in international football, at this point I am just much more comfortable having Millar in the squad than taking a chance on an unknown! This is a huge match for us obviously, I don't think it's a time for experimentation with the squad, if things don't work out we will have several matches vs minnows in the long road of trying to qualify for the hex and that would probably be a better time to bring in some new faces!

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Obviously there is not enough data yet from Champions League play to draw a conclusion, on the limited data CanPL is better then Guatemala and not as good as Honduras.

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8 minutes ago, MM3/MM2/MM said:

Obviously there is not enough data yet from Champions League play to draw a conclusion, on the limited data CanPL is better then Guatemala and not as good as Honduras.

And to be fair Forge won the home leg against the Honduran team. Winning in Honduras is rarely easy 

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3 hours ago, dyslexic nam said:

CPL is Div 1 in Canada.  Yes, the MLS teams are stronger.  They play in a USSF league. 

As for USL being superior to CPL, I am not sure I would agree.  HFX, one of the weakest teams in CPL, pushed Fury hard in their first year of existence (losing 5-4 on aggregate).  Put Fury against Forge or Cavalry and I am not sure anyone would conclude USL superiority. 

Similarly, the Fury aren't truly representative of how good USL teams can be. Teams like Phoenix, Nashville or Indy Eleven would definitely be able to hang with Forge and Cavalry.

On the whole, CPL and USL are pretty comparable.

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As for Borges, I love the kid, he is very talented. He might get to the same level as Millar, it is hard to say. But as of right now I think we need to stick with Liam as the official callup. He has experience with the national team, knows the system and players, and he is consistent in the SPL. Another factor is probably the mentality of the players. 

As we all can see, Borges has a bit of a nack for being at the center of altercations. And the last thing we need is an Altercation in a big game with Concacaf refs. Liam has a cool head and more workmanlike attitude which we need in this game. 

I love Borges, and honestly since it is the off season they should call him into camp, but just the practice roster. Get him in the program, and evaluate him there. 

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1 hour ago, RS said:

Similarly, the Fury aren't truly representative of how good USL teams can be. Teams like Phoenix, Nashville or Indy Eleven would definitely be able to hang with Forge and Cavalry.

On the whole, CPL and USL are pretty comparable.

You could also say that Cavalry and Forge can probably hang with the bottom of MLS teams as well.  Remembering that Cavalry beat Vancouver and was competitive with Montreal this year.

The tops of one division vs the bottom of a stronger division often gets murky comparisons.

Cavalry and Forge were very well organized teams who rolled through the CanPL this season.  That kind of cohesiveness often translates in short home and away competitions.

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