Vancouver Whitecaps in CPL

[toontownman]

Long term yes but short term I dont want to see any of the MLS clubs in the CPL unless they move all together. (Will get to that thought later)

The exposure, money and level of play is far superior to the CPL and it will be a long time before that gap fills, if ever. It's a step up for our Canadian players and selfishly for that reason and the players they get to train around and play against I'd hate to see Whitecaps gone. For all the detractors the academy system they have set up across western Canada has and will have huge impact on Canada soccer in the coming years. That immediately goes if they do from the MLS imo. I think we get to "have our cake and eat it" while the CPL grows.

 The potential has always been there with the Whitecaps. I wish the ownership would admit they cant financially take the club where it could go and find someone to come in and do that or at least look for more investors. The ownership dont want to give up control or the prestige though. 

Where I am not really clued in is what spursflu talks about the club taking losses and it going to get worse. If that is actually the case and the league is set up for Canadian teams to make losses then a switch will make more sense. 

Some of the above however is moot if the CSA mandated all Canadian clubs to the CPL too. 

With the CPL being the only place to watch and support Canadian teams the CPL would be a completely different proposition and at that point would step to a different level financially and attracting fans and players.

The loss of the Whitecaps academy centers would hopefully be alleviated by more CPL clubs with their own academies and scouting systems.

It's all what ifs and maybes and I also think the MLS would do what they can to keep those markets and Canadian fans money. Would people here or in Canada be interested in an MLS without Canadian teams again?

[youllneverwalkalone]

9 hours ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

Really? Some of the teams are able to generate into seven figures per game in matchday revenues. The idea that it's all an expansion driven Ponzi scheme doesn't really make any sense when viewed from that angle.

Not the Caps.

[RS]

2 hours ago, gator said:

If that's the case why have we been screwed by this league so many times in Hamilton? The NHL  and the city of Glendale spent somewhere around a billion dollars keeping a bankrupt Arizona team from moving to Hamilton where it was well financed and basically sold out, Mr. Bettman admitted in bankruptcy court that a team in Hamilton would be in the top ten of financially stability! That was enough for me and this gimmick league called the NHL!

The simple answer is that a team in Hamilton would harm the Leafs and (especially) the Sabres.

The more complicated answer is that the NHL is chasing an expanded footprint in the U.S., which Hamilton does nothing to help with.

[SpursFlu]

I can only speak for myself.. maybe I'm a little old school in my thinking but i can't cheer for any other team. I'm Whitecaps for better or worse. As long as they exist I can't cheer for anyone else over them. I'm just making the case that all things considered I believe I would have a more rewarding supporters experience if they played in the CPL rather than the MLS 

[ted]

22 hours ago, CDNFootballer said:

They won't retain the name Vancouver Whitecaps FC unless they can work that in a deal. Don't see a problem with them staying in BC Place.

Pretty sure that Kerfoot bought the Whitecaps name and trademarks before they entered MLS. I cannot imagine they would have been stupid enough to sign them over.

[gator]

5 hours ago, RS said:

The simple answer is that a team in Hamilton would harm the Leafs and (especially) the Sabres.

The more complicated answer is that the NHL is chasing an expanded footprint in the U.S., which Hamilton does nothing to help with.

Yes, I understand the league didn't want a lawsuit with the Leafs as they would try to protect their monopoly, it doesn't make it right and they went above and beyond to keep the team out of The Hammer, I just don't understand why more Hamiltonians aren't as bitter as me about it and continue to support it!

[RS]

2 hours ago, Lofty said:

It is possible there will be a sudden surge of interest just because, that will benefit both leagues, but that is just pie in the sky.

If only Canada was going to be co-hosting a big event in, say, seven years time that will surely boost general soccer interest around the country.

[Ingham]

I know it will never happen, but I am personally for all 3 MLS sides to join the CPL. We are not American, we are Canadian. Screw having teams there and lets focus on our own league.

I think CPL's biggest killer is the MLS teams. Right now only York 9 is properly competing (and losing) but it also gives us less locations to place teams in.

[Ansem]

What sells more?

Minnow in MLS or a CPL dynasty playing Continental football?

🤔

It will end up being a business decision and/or a governing body decision 

[Kent]

OK, I'm caught up. Some thoughts on things mentioned.

I agree that 30 team leagues are too big. It increases the odds of your team being an "also ran" in any given year. I'd rather 2 tiers of 16 teams each than one tier of 32 teams, even if that meant my team was sometimes in the lower tier. Much like the original poster mentioned, in 2012 as a TFC fan I found myself wishing TFC could have been relegated after their horrible 2011 season so that they could maybe be an OK team in a worse league in 2012, instead of being a terrible team yet again.

As for Vancouver to CPL, or more generally MLS teams to CPL, at this time I think we are better off with the MLS teams. Here are the potential scenarios as I see it, ranked from best outcome to worst.

1. CPL is crazy successful and on par or better than MLS, and absorbs the Canadian MLS teams.

2. MLS teams stay where they are and CPL is successful enough to not ever be in danger of folding.

3. CPL isn't able to survive without the MLS teams, one way or another MLS teams end up in CPL and save the league.

4. MLS teams don't move, and CPL starves trying to live off the crumbs from MLS's table. CPL folds.

5. MLS teams move to CPL and take a big hit in relevance. CPL folds, leaving us with nothing (or maybe Ottawa Fury, the cockroach of Canadian soccer).

Number 1 above isn't realistic in my opinion. At this point number 2 seems like it's possible (but still lots of work for CPL to do). In that scenario, as others have mentioned, we get to benefit from MLS investment in youth soccer, and also in terms of having a decent number of jobs available for relatively high level Canadian players. But we still have CPL to develop a significantly larger pool of players and of course to fill in a sizeable geographic footprint for soccer fans in the country.

So for me it would take CPL doing unthinkably well, or doing dangerously poorly, for me to think it is ideal for Canadian soccer for MLS teams to move to the CPL. Anything in the middle for CPL, and I hope the MLS teams stay.

That being said, number 1 is still the dream, and I'm totally cheering for York 9 against Montreal and Cavalry against Vancouver tomorrow.

[youllneverwalkalone]

I would love to hear the argument whereby the Caps are better off relegated in MLS2 than playing in the CPL.

The scenario that would make sense for the Caps owners to hang tough to me is if Canada received 1,2,3, or 4 slots in an 18-20 clubs pan North American top division with promotion relegation to the respective domestic leagues in Canada, the US and Mexico.

This would solve the glass ceiling on the pyramid, generate real TV money, and do away with the monotony of a 30 team MLS.

Of course this league probably wouldn't give 3 spots to Canada and, even if they did, the Caps would be relegated in favour of Cavalry.

[SoccMan]

My take on all this is that slowly but surely we are getting  closer to a real North American League including, the US , Mexico and Canada. In Canada you might will probably get the big 3, Toronto, Montreal and Vancouver in said League eventually. This is a lot more of a possibility than the 3 Canadian MLS teams  joining the CPL. If the Vancouver current owners can’t hack it financially in the MLS I’m sure there are other owners ready to pounce to buy the MLS Vancouver team and keep them in the MLS. As we have seen the Vancouver MLS market is one of the better ones in the MLS and just needs owners with deeper pockets than this current owner.

Edited July 24, 2019 by SoccMan

[Ansem]

2 hours ago, SoccMan said:

My take on all this is that slowly but surely we are getting  closer to a real North American League including, the US , Mexico and Canada.

FIFA & CONCACAF won't allow it

2 hours ago, SoccMan said:

If the Vancouver current owners can’t hack it financially in the MLS I’m sure there are other owners ready to pounce to buy the MLS Vancouver team and keep them in the MLS. As we have seen the Vancouver MLS market is one of the better ones in the MLS and just needs owners with deeper pockets than this current owner.

As Joey Saputo kept pointing out, he has yet to make a dime with MLS (SUM revenues included). No one likes bleeding money. Next TV contract will answer a lot of questions on how things will go forward for Saputo and arguably Vancouver owners. No wonder MLS won't stop expanding as those expansion fees is really bailing out some of those owners.

 

[narduch]

Considering how bad MLS ratings are in the US I wonder why networks keep giving out decent deals to MLS

[ted]

3 hours ago, SoccMan said:

My take on all this is that slowly but surely we are getting  closer to a real North American League including, the US , Mexico and Canada.

Second of all... nope that about covers it.

[Ansem]

28 minutes ago, narduch said:

Considering how bad MLS ratings are in the US I wonder why networks keep giving out decent deals to MLS

Rating wise of course lol (relax, I'm joking to an extend)

 

To MLS credit, that league is very good at projecting "glamour" and "value". (Stadiums. superstars retiring into the league, marketing, USMNT plugging MLS)

Also, expansion will play a massive role in increasing the value of their next TV contract. Just like Gary, they will zero in on the US top media markets and try to sell their imminent arrival in those TV markets to broadcasters in exchange for a better deal. So anyone thinking MLS is done expanding is naïve. They'll grow to at least 40 teams and will gladly split it like the NFL and MLB model.

Playing the prediction game in where they will expand looking at US Markets (Media)

• Tampa
• Phoenix
• Detroit
• Cleveland
• Sacramento
• St.Louis (Incoming ?)
• Charlotte
• Pittsburgh
• Raleigh
• Baltimore
• Nashville (incoming)
• Hartford
• Milwaukee
• Las Vegas #40
• Austin (Incoming) #41

That's a lot of USL team to raid... Another reason why I don't buy into USL. Strong clubs invest in talent as a "MLS rehearsal" in the hope of making the big jump. Teams with no hop of ever joining have little incentive to put out that much cash...hence Ottawa case being bizarre.

In my opinion, they are growing WAYYYYYY to fast. They will experience a dilution of talent (prolonging their lack of depth) while keep overpaying for internationals to compensate for the lack of quality (artificially inflating the quality - pointed out on Tim and Sid).

To me, that's unsustainable long term and it will catch up to them. They will stagnate at some point (quality-wise) and other leagues in the region will narrow the gap overtime including CPL (untapped talent within Canada feeding the CPL) with far less resources but deeper squads. Looking at Montreal, it's not the same team without Piatti and Piette, It's not normal that kind of gap is showing over 2 guys with the amount of money being spent (8th overall in the league I was reading), let's not even talk Vancouver.

MLS will never catch up to Mexico, forget about it.

 

Edited July 24, 2019 by Ansem

[SoccMan]

2 hours ago, Ansem said:

FIFA & CONCACAF won't allow it

As Joey Saputo kept pointing out, he has yet to make a dime with MLS (SUM revenues included). No one likes bleeding money. Next TV contract will answer a lot of questions on how things will go forward for Saputo and arguably Vancouver owners. No wonder MLS won't stop expanding as those expansion fees is really bailing out some of those owners.

 

Lol ya Saputo crying poor ok lol, he was losing so much money in soccer that just a few years ago he became majority owner of Bologna of Italy’s seria A a league that the majority of teams lose money in the bush loads every year please. They are so many leagues all over the world in both soccer and other sports where the majority of teams lose money. That’s why even in the CPL if your a serious owner and have money even losing a million a year ain’t going to kill you.

[Ansem]

24 minutes ago, SoccMan said:

Lol ya Saputo crying poor ok lol, he was losing so much money in soccer that just a few years ago he became majority owner of Bologna of Italy’s seria A a league that the majority of teams lose money in the bush loads every year please.

Buying into Serie A and losing money in MLS is comparing Apple to Oranges. Also, I seriously doubt he has access to the whole family money.

24 minutes ago, SoccMan said:

They are so many leagues all over the world in both soccer and other sports where the majority of teams lose money.

Montreal has a revenue problem, attendance inconsistencies and the league has TV viewership problems. In Italy, I don't know about TV or attendance being a problem but if Fiorentina can be sold for $150M US, a 92 year old club, no F'N way, Montreal or most of MLS franchise are worth that or more. 

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-soccer-italy-fiorentina-sale/italys-soccer-club-fiorentina-confirms-sale-process-idUSKCN1T235O

If that's the case and I'm a billionaire, where do you think buying makes the most sense? Serie A or MLS? I'd rather lose money in Serie A than MLS. Serie A being in UEFA and having much higher opportunities to have higher streams of revenues / income while operating on a lower budget at their scale (Which is what Bologna has been doing) makes more sense to me. You are in a league with Ronaldo and the likes of Roma, Milan Napoli etc...while having a shot (if you do decently) at Europa. Saputo can afford the losses but he's clearly bothered by it on the MLS side of the business while I doubt that he would mind that much in Serie A.

The valuations in MLS are monumental JOKE and people using that metric as valid don't know what they're talking about. (I don't mean you by the way). Good questions btw

24 minutes ago, SoccMan said:

That’s why even in the CPL if your a serious owner and have money even losing a million a year ain’t going to kill you.

True and CPL has a path to breaking even at an average of 6k fans while enjoying a similar business model like SUM. MLS on the other hand... is much harder.*

*I'm not talking the US clubs but for the Canadian clubs not drawing 25 or 30k on average while having all their expenses in US dollars with revenues in Canadian dollars...OUCH...

Unless you're structured like MLSE, making money in those circumstances is pretty brutal

Edited July 24, 2019 by Ansem

[RS]

4 minutes ago, Ansem said:

if Fiorentina can be sold for $150M US, a 92 year old club, NO F'N WAY, Montreal or most of MLS franchise are worth that or more. 

The value of a Serie A club has no bearing on what MLS franchises are worth, regardless of how long its been around. Real billionaires are dropping way more than that on MLS teams, presumably after doing far more due diligence than you are.

Last week, James Harden (not a billionare) bought a 5% stake of the company that owns the Houston Dynamo and Dash for $23.75 million. That values the teams at $475 million.

You have to be stupid rich to get into the MLS ownership game these days. 

[RS]

2 hours ago, narduch said:

Considering how bad MLS ratings are in the US I wonder why networks keep giving out decent deals to MLS

Demographics. MLS has by far the youngest viewership of all the US sports leagues, so those 100-200k ratings are worth 4-5x as much to advertisers looking to connect to Millennials and Gen Z.

I suspect the CPL's demographics shake down similarly.

[Ansem]

1 minute ago, RS said:

The value of a Serie A club has no bearing on what MLS franchises are worth, regardless of how long its been around. Real billionaires are dropping way more than that on MLS teams, presumably after doing far more due diligence than you are.

Last week, James Harden (not a billionare) bought a 5% stake of the company that owns the Houston Dynamo and Dash for $23.75 million. That values the teams at $475 million.

You have to be stupid rich to get into the MLS ownership game these days. 

Doesn't mean that's what it's really worth. It's a subjective metric and highly speculative. LA Clippers sold for $2B but c'mon, they aren't worth that for real but it makes the league happy as it raised everyone else's value. That's speculation at it's best, it isn't reality

A good read!

The Clippers Are Worth Nowhere Near What Ballmer Is Paying

https://time.com/2800607/steve-ballmer-los-angeles-clippers-worth/

[RS]

Just now, Ansem said:

Doesn't mean that's what it's really worth. It's a subjective metric and highly speculative. LA Clippers sold for $2B but c'mon, they aren't worth that for real but it makes the league happy as it raised everyone else's value. That's speculation at it's best, it isn't reality

A good read!

The Clippers Are Worth Nowhere Near What Ballmer Is Paying

https://time.com/2800607/steve-ballmer-los-angeles-clippers-worth/

The Clippers are literally worth $2 billion because that's what they sold for. That's how it works.

Even if Steve Ballmer overpaid, that's still real cash changing hands.

Anyway, I have to agree with @narduch when he says the Whitecaps joining CPL is more fanfic than a real life possibility. MLS and CPL will co-exist in Canada for the foreseeable future.

[Ansem]

10 minutes ago, RS said:

The Clippers are literally worth $2 billion because that's what they sold for. That's how it works.

Even if Steve Ballmer overpaid, that's still real cash changing hands.

It's speculative, not truly what it's worth

 

10 minutes ago, RS said:

Anyway, I have to agree with @narduch when he says the Whitecaps joining CPL is more fanfic than a real life possibility. MLS and CPL will co-exist in Canada for the foreseeable future.

Like I said earlier, it will come down as a business decision and/or governing body ruling

Edited July 24, 2019 by Ansem

[ted]

7 minutes ago, Ansem said:

Like I said earlier, it will come down as a business decision and/or governing body ruling

FWIW the only way to get any real return on this investment is to sell the MLS franchise. Given what he paid for it, and what he can sell it for, NOT selling makes no business sense.

[SkuseisLoose]