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Olympic Qualifying U24 Tournament - Guadalajara Mexico - March 18 to 30 2021

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JasonDias
JasonDias
El Hombre
El Hombre

Is Herdman the best coach that was available in 2018?  No. Is Herdman the best coach that we could afford and was available?  Probably still no. Is Herdman the most qualified coach we've had

saladroit
saladroit

If these idiots would have allowed bigger rosters I would have taken both, but with these minuscule roster sizes you will get situations like this where a player like Choiniere is left off. 

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El Hombre Grand Master

El Hombre

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11 hours ago, SoccMan said:

Moreover, some players were also just not good enough period I don’t care how many minutes they would have gotten . I forget who was that goalie TFC had that everyone on here was saying should have started over the American keeper Bono who was the TFC keeper in the 2017 winning season . Moreover, said Canadian keeper in the end was not good enough to start with Forge in the CPL and was let go but back in the day everyone was up in arms that Bono started over him. Sometimes maybe certain players don’t get a lot of playing time because they are simply not good end of story .

This entire quote could've applied to Mark-Anthony Kaye except that LAFC gave him a shot and look what happened.  I think it is fair to criticize the talent-evaluating abilities of a team if a player goes from an also-ran throwaway on the academy to a starter on a top team in a couple years.

If you never give them a shot, you never know if they "aren't good enough."

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Obinna Grand Master

Obinna

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41 minutes ago, El Hombre said:

This entire quote could've applied to Mark-Anthony Kaye except that LAFC gave him a shot and look what happened.  I think it is fair to criticize the talent-evaluating abilities of a team if a player goes from an also-ran throwaway on the academy to a starter on a top team in a couple years.

If you never give them a shot, you never know if they "aren't good enough."

Where does individual trajectory come into the equation? MAK was something of a late bloomer who perhaps just needed the right environment (Louisville) to blossom. He wasn't having the same impact with TFC2, so he did not make the first team, one could argue. If there were voices criticizing Toronto for letting him go back in 2016, they were not very loud.

If we want to be critical we could suggest Toronto should have sent him there on loan, instead of cutting him loose. At least then he would still be in the system. However, didn't he credit his failure at Toronto for giving him a wake up call he sorely needed? Would he have had the same chip on his shoulder if he was still attached to TFC?

I am unsure if MAK is a good example if we are criticizing their talent-evaluating ability.

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El Hombre Grand Master

El Hombre

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2 minutes ago, Obinna said:

Where does individual trajectory come into the equation? MAK was something of a late bloomer who perhaps just needed the right environment (Louisville) to blossom. He wasn't having the same impact with TFC2, so he did not make the first team, one could argue. If there were voices criticizing Toronto for letting him go back in 2016, they were not very loud.

If we want to be critical we could suggest Toronto should have sent him there on loan, instead of cutting him loose. At least then he would still be in the system. However, didn't he credit his failure at Toronto for giving him a wake up call he sorely needed? Who knows if he would have had the same chip on his shoulder if he was still attached to TFC?

I am unsure if MAK is a good example if we are criticizing their talent-evaluating ability.

So, you're saying that there is something in the Louisville water that would give him the ability to become a mainstay in the midfield for the best team in MLS?  I think that's a stretch.  He had the ability.  The chip on his shoulder may have given him motivation, but if you don't have the ability you will get nowhere.  And that's not something you learn in 2 years with a USL team.

He wasn't having the same effect with TFC2 because they kept trying to turn him into a full back.  TFC opted to play him out of position (switching him between left and right back) and put others in the midfield role (Luca Uccello, Anthony Osorio, Liam Fraser, Massimo Mirabelli etc.).  Fraser is the only one to come out of that midfield with any promise but even then he's not a regular like Kaye is.

The point of it all is that someone gave him a chance and he showed that he could play.  Otherwise, he would've been another throwaway like so many that have gone through the academy without a chance.

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Kadenge Grand Master

Kadenge

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Think the first time folks got a good look at MAK was at the Aspire Cup...U23?  Where he impressed then  selected for GC 2017 and impressed again which led him to LAFC...players will slip through the cracks but looks like the talent was there. It just wasn't nurtured and assessed properly. The lack of loans/opportunities for young players to  mid level leagues is a problem for MLS. Hope the CPL will do that for Canadians

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Obinna Grand Master

Obinna

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42 minutes ago, El Hombre said:

So, you're saying that there is something in the Louisville water that would give him the ability to become a mainstay in the midfield for the best team in MLS?  I think that's a stretch.  He had the ability.  The chip on his shoulder may have given him motivation, but if you don't have the ability you will get nowhere.  And that's not something you learn in 2 years with a USL team.

He wasn't having the same effect with TFC2 because they kept trying to turn him into a full back.  TFC opted to play him out of position (switching him between left and right back) and put others in the midfield role (Luca Uccello, Anthony Osorio, Liam Fraser, Massimo Mirabelli etc.).  Fraser is the only one to come out of that midfield with any promise but even then he's not a regular like Kaye is.

The point of it all is that someone gave him a chance and he showed that he could play.  Otherwise, he would've been another throwaway like so many that have gone through the academy without a chance.

I am not saying that at all. 

Kaye always had ability. It was clear during the U23 Qatar camp. I am just not sure how much to blame TFC for their inability to see it. I am sure they knew he had ability, otherwise they wouldn't have given him 21 games with their second team. 

If you don't have the ability you will get nowhere, but without the proper focus and motivation you can have all the ability in the world and get nowhere. See Ballou Tabla. Kaye said himself he had some growing up to do.

Sometimes you just need the right situation to show your stuff.

To me what happened with Kaye was that confluence of factors (positional switch, new environment & opportunity, motivation, age & maturity, etc.) allowed him to develop nicely.

Does TFC have some egg on their face for missing out? Sure, but they won't be the first or the last club.

Houston Dynamo largely used Chris Wondolowski for their reserve team, then traded him to San Jose for Cam Weaver, where he went on to become the MLS all time leading goal scorer. Easy for us to say in retrospect that Houston failed to see Wondo's ability, isn't it? Perhaps it is similar to Kaye?

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Shway Grand Master

Shway

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You gentlemen were having a great discussion that probably warrants it own thread....but it’s roster day release day.

Im excited to see who will be on this roster, and who will not be released/omitted. 

By the sounds of it, we’ll probably be the youngest team at the tournament....which can be promising and worrisome at the same time.

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CanadaFan123 Grand Master

CanadaFan123

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Kaye's talent was pretty clear to see for TFC II back in 2014 even - he was loaned to Wilmington and impressed alongside Hamilton. What happened thereafter was a blessing for him and Canada. Sometimes guys slip through the cracks of not just one team but many. Look at the countless guys who went undrafted in the NHL and onto incredible NHL all star careers (Belfour, St. Louis, Panarin, Oates, Boyle, Bobrovsky etc.) 

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PopePouri Collaborator

PopePouri

Posted
Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, El Hombre said:

So, you're saying that there is something in the Louisville water that would give him the ability to become a mainstay in the midfield for the best team in MLS?  I think that's a stretch.  He had the ability.  The chip on his shoulder may have given him motivation, but if you don't have the ability you will get nowhere.  And that's not something you learn in 2 years with a USL team.

He wasn't having the same effect with TFC2 because they kept trying to turn him into a full back.  TFC opted to play him out of position (switching him between left and right back) and put others in the midfield role (Luca Uccello, Anthony Osorio, Liam Fraser, Massimo Mirabelli etc.).  Fraser is the only one to come out of that midfield with any promise but even then he's not a regular like Kaye is.

The point of it all is that someone gave him a chance and he showed that he could play.  Otherwise, he would've been another throwaway like so many that have gone through the academy without a chance.

He didn't start out at LB. Back in 2015, he started out at the left side of a diamond, which should have been his bread and butter and should have probably kicked on. But a couple of bad performances, coupled with a good Raheem Edwards meant he was pushed to left back. He left, TFC fully invested in Raheem and he had a breakout season in 2017 before being a victim of MLS's allocation system.

Who knows what was going on his head or being the scenes. Obviously being cut was motivation for him to examine his career and realize his full potential.

Hindsight and all....

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El Hombre Grand Master

El Hombre

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1 hour ago, PopePouri said:

He didn't start out at LB. Back in 2015, he started out at the left side of a diamond, which should have been his bread and butter and should have probably kicked on. But a couple of bad performances, coupled with a good Raheem Edwards meant he was pushed to left back. He left, TFC fully invested in Raheem and he had a breakout season in 2017 before being a victim of MLS's allocation system.

Who knows what was going on his head or being the scenes. Obviously being cut was motivation for him to examine his career and realize his full potential.

Hindsight and all....

Not sure that's an accurate account of what happened.  Looks like he played the first game in midfield, then was moved up front for the second game, then subbed on for a forward for the third game and then started at left back for the fourth game, where he would switch between left and right for the rest of the season.

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PopePouri

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2 hours ago, El Hombre said:

Not sure that's an accurate account of what happened.  Looks like he played the first game in midfield, then was moved up front for the second game, then subbed on for a forward for the third game and then started at left back for the fourth game, where he would switch between left and right for the rest of the season.

I watched that Whitecaps game he was definitely in midfield.

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El Hombre Grand Master

El Hombre

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20 minutes ago, PopePouri said:

I watched that Whitecaps game he was definitely in midfield.

Highlights are here: Highlights

Rough looking at those lineups and seeing so few make it much further.  Kaye definitely has had the best career so far. High hopes were definitely had for Clarke, Babouli, Hamilton, Edwards, Manella, Levis etc.

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