What do you think of the CONCACAF WCQ for 2022?

[Blackdude]

Okay, let's try with a poll.

Edited July 11, 2019 by Blackdude

[narduch]

Its awful on so many levels.  

First of all the FIFA ranking are garbage to begin with. 

Then you have 6 nations battling for 3.25 spots while 29 nations battle for 0.25 spots. 

It's a joke. 

[Gian-Luca]

It's absolute nonsense which I think was only passed whatever vote was needed by the Concacaf members to agree implement this because it suits the biggest teams in the region plus most of the smaller nations who had no expectations of getting into the World Cup for 2022 but benefit from this because they get to play more games that mean something for a longer period of time. Which just leaves the teams on the bubble of possibly qualifying - such as us - as the ones who get screwed from this. It's not fair, nor equitable and the ridiculous over-emphasis on the FIFA rankings is extremely unjustifiable, as is the timing that this process is being rolled out and the inclusion of matches against non-FIFA matches to harm nations FIFA rankings for those unlucky enough to be drawn in the same group as French Guiana or Martinique in CNLQ and Gold Cup play.

[JamboAl]

18 minutes ago, Blackdude said:

Okay, let's try with a poll.

Well done!  I voted early and voted often.

[Admin]

Given we have been around this many times....

I think we should just make memes about it.  wtf else are we gonna do?

[Admin]

[Reign]

Trasssssh.

[Kent]

Even the fact that some people are making an argument that we would be better off in the 7-35 tournament is evidence that the system is terrible. Two totally different systems with teams isolated in one or the other. The old system was kind of like that where some teams only played knockouts and others only played in groups, but it was a progression back then. Do well enough in the knockouts and you make it to the groups.

[Toronto Ruffrider]

CONCACAF is crap, and the FIFA rankings are crap; they go hand-in-hand. Put the two together... need I say more?

[Free kick]

I am at a loss in understanding the logic to this format.  Its totally inequitable.  What problem or issue was this format trying to solve?  I would go so far as to say that as a soccer association, its almost worth boycotting.  I thought that the grand pooba in Concacaf was a Canadian?  Cant believe he could have signed off on this.  Because Canada, Panama and maybe Haiti are the countries that are most adversely impacted by thus format.  And big time. 

The 20 or so nations in Concacaf that, because of their size, will not ever qualify for a WC will likely not complain too much.  The six who got assigned to the hex, have been gifted a fifty percent chance to qualify.  Who got screwed?  The 4-5 just outside the hex who now statistically have something like a one or two percent chance to qualify.  And, unlike the six in the hex,  they have no games that they can afford to slip up on.  Unless i have misread it,  if everything goes perfect for Canada in Concacaf, we would have to play in tournament with best non automatic qualitiers from Europe and other regions.  That european side is certain to win that.  So our chances are pretty much zero percent.

This worst and most unjust competition format that i have seen.  Be it soccer basketball, hockey, tennis etc etc.  

 

Edited July 12, 2019 by Free kick

[BearcatSA]

I'd like to hear Montagliani's thoughts on this.  Perhaps a TSN feature as part of the TFC-Impact broadcast this weekend?

[theaub]

Acknowledging that there is no way in hell they're going to a format that doesn't have two Mexico/US games, and that they only have 12 match days to fit the entirety of qualifying in if they start in September 2020...I don't hate the idea. 

If they just switched from using the June 2020 FIFA rankings to instead giving the four League A winners byes to the hex and then had the four second place teams involved in random draw home/home playoffs in March 2020 for the two final spots, it would be a lot better.  At least that acts as a semi-qualification process.

 

[Kent]

13 hours ago, Lofty said:

How do I vote: "It's bad, but not bad for Canada"?  😁

That falls in the "It's bad" bucket.

Also, if you think it's easier to qualify as the 7th ranked team than it is as the 6th ranked team, it's bad.

[Kent]

11 hours ago, Free kick said:

Unless i have misread it,  if everything goes perfect for Canada in Concacaf, we would have to play in tournament with best non automatic qualitiers from Europe and other regions.

I've seen this a couple times. The only confederations with half spots in the 2022 World Cup are CONCACAF, CONMEBOL, AFC, and OFC. So the team that earns CONCACAF's half spot would play a team from South America, Asia, or Oceania.

For example, the last two World Cups had these teams in those half spots.

CONCACAF: 2018 Honduras, 2014 Mexico
CONMEBOL: 2018 Peru, 2014 Uruguay
AFC: 2018 Australia, 2014 Jordan
OFC: 2018 New Zealand, 2014 New Zealand

[Addona]

What if they used the June 2020 rankings to give top 6 direct entry to HEX.  Top 2 from that HEX go to WC.  The other 4 (3rd-6th), and the top 4 from the non-HEX side (i.e. the winners of the group stage and 1 knockout round) then play more knock-outs for the remaining 1.5 spots.  If you win this mini-tourney of 8 (i.e. you win 3 knock-out rounds) you go to the WC.  The team that loses in the final plays vs. CONMEBOL / AFC / OFC.

Haven't given it too much thought, but at least there is: 1. more in it for the non-HEX teams, and 2. no one from the HEX side gets outright eliminated (the way 5th and 6th place do in the actual proposed format); they get another shot to show that they deserve a spot ... 

Also, I don't know if it's too many matches ... you'd have 2 fewer knockout rounds on the non-HEX side at least ...

 

[mrstepp817]

11 hours ago, Free kick said:

I am at a loss in understanding the logic to this format.  Its totally inequitable.  What problem or issue was this format trying to solve?  I would go so far as to say that as a soccer association, its almost worth boycotting.  I thought that the grand pooba in Concacaf was a Canadian?  Cant believe he could have signed off on this.  Because Canada, Panama and maybe Haiti are the countries that are most adversely impacted by thus format.  And big time. 

The 20 or so nations in Concacaf that, because of their size, will not ever qualify for a WC will likely not complain too much.  The six who got assigned to the hex, have been gifted a fifty percent chance to qualify.  Who got screwed?  The 4-5 just outside the hex who now statistically have something like a one or two percent chance to qualify.  And, unlike the six in the hex,  they have no games that they can afford to slip up on.  Unless i have misread it,  if everything goes perfect for Canada in Concacaf, we would have to play in tournament with best non automatic qualitiers from Europe and other regions.  That european side is certain to win that.  So our chances are pretty much zero percent.

This worst and most unjust competition format that i have seen.  Be it soccer basketball, hockey, tennis etc etc.  

 

This is a great take...Canada, Haiti, Panama, Honduras, T&T, Curacao are the ones who are really getting screwed and you could throw El Salvador in there also if they get booted out of the top six

[mrstepp817]

2 minutes ago, Addona said:

What if they used the June 2020 rankings to give top 6 direct entry to HEX.  Top 2 from that HEX go to WC.  The other 4 (3rd-6th), and the top 4 from the non-HEX side (i.e. the winners of the group stage and 1 knockout round) then play more knock-outs for the remaining 1.5 spots.  If you win this mini-tourney of 8 (i.e. you win 3 knock-out rounds) you go to the WC.  The team that loses in the final plays vs. CONMEBOL / AFC / OFC.

Haven't given it too much thought, but at least there is: 1. more in it for the non-HEX teams, and 2. no one from the HEX side gets outright eliminated (the way 5th and 6th place do in the actual proposed format); they get another shot to show that they deserve a spot ... 

Also, I don't know if it's too many matches ... you'd have 2 fewer knockout rounds on the non-HEX side at least ...

 

I could live with this a lot more than the current format...wouldn't like it but its an improvement

[Addona]

2 hours ago, Addona said:

What if they used the June 2020 rankings to give top 6 direct entry to HEX.  Top 2 from that HEX go to WC.  The other 4 (3rd-6th), and the top 4 from the non-HEX side (i.e. the winners of the group stage and 1 knockout round) then play more knock-outs for the remaining 1.5 spots.  If you win this mini-tourney of 8 (i.e. you win 3 knock-out rounds) you go to the WC.  The team that loses in the final plays vs. CONMEBOL / AFC / OFC.

Haven't given it too much thought, but at least there is: 1. more in it for the non-HEX teams, and 2. no one from the HEX side gets outright eliminated (the way 5th and 6th place do in the actual proposed format); they get another shot to show that they deserve a spot ... 

Also, I don't know if it's too many matches ... you'd have 2 fewer knockout rounds on the non-HEX side at least ...

I thought about this a little more; one issue with my proposal is that in the HEX, once it becomes clear that a team won't finish top 2, there is no incentive to try to keep playing hard (since 3rd-6th are all still alive).  One possible remedy:

Top 2 from the HEX go to WC.  3rd and 4th place go directly to the SF of that last mini-knockout tournament.  5th and 6th place from the HEX face-off against the top 2 from the non-HEX side with the winners moving on (note: now from the non-HEX side, you'd have to win the group stage and 2 knockout rounds).  This way, there is still incentive for teams in the HEX to finish as high as possible, even if their chances at top 2 are gone.

Everything else stays the same.  The winner of this extra knockout stage goes to the WC.  The finalist plays for the 0.5 spot.

 

Edited July 12, 2019 by Addona

[Free kick]

5 hours ago, Kent said:

I've seen this a couple times. The only confederations with half spots in the 2022 World Cup are CONCACAF, CONMEBOL, AFC, and OFC. So the team that earns CONCACAF's half spot would play a team from South America, Asia, or Oceania.

For example, the last two World Cups had these teams in those half spots.

CONCACAF: 2018 Honduras, 2014 Mexico
CONMEBOL: 2018 Peru, 2014 Uruguay
AFC: 2018 Australia, 2014 Jordan
OFC: 2018 New Zealand, 2014 New Zealand

Thanks for the clarification.   I was trying to look it up to see if Europe was one of the four but couldn’t find anything.    If it actually was,  then I would have said we have literally no chance what so ever given that the top concacaf side (Mexico) would have been a significant underdog against the potential 15th qualifier from Europe.  

Going from what we saw at recent World Cup qualifiers,  that last team that just barely finished out of qualifying in UEFA could have been a side like Holland,  Ireland or Italy.  Not even Mexico would stand chance.  Mexico might even be hard pressed against the hypothetical South American side. 

[SpursFlu]

I love it.. Let the games begin

[youllneverwalkalone]

[SpursFlu]

44 minutes ago, youllneverwalkalone said:

We win games.. we go to World Cup

 

We play Concacaf.. Concacaf not good at soccer 

Edited July 13, 2019 by SpursFlu

[Binky]

Like really! What did you expect from Mt. Vic? Thank God he's not the president of the CSA any longer. He isn't, isn't he? No wonder he kept it a secret so long. Very typical for his kind.

Edited July 13, 2019 by Binky

[Kent]

3 hours ago, Free kick said:

Thanks for the clarification.   I was trying to look it up to see if Europe was one of the four but couldn’t find anything.    If it actually was,  then I would have said we have literally no chance what so ever given that the top concacaf side (Mexico) would have been a significant underdog against the potential 15th qualifier from Europe.  

Going from what we saw at recent World Cup qualifiers,  that last team that just barely finished out of qualifying in UEFA could have been a side like Holland,  Ireland or Italy.  Not even Mexico would stand chance.  Mexico might even be hard pressed against the hypothetical South American side. 

I'm getting off topic now, but in my opinion the half spot for CONMEBOL is tougher than a hypothetical half spot from UEFA. And I don't think Mexico would be the underdog against a UEFA 15th qualifier. Based on World Cup results, Mexico is very firmly in the 9th to 16th best country in the world range. They have made it to exactly the round of 16, 7 World Cups in a row. In that time they have finished ahead of the following European teams in the group stage. 1994 Ireland, Italy and Norway, 1998 Belgium, 2002 Italy, 2010 France, 2014 Croatia, 2018 Germany. For completeness, in that time span the following European teams finished ahead of Mexico. 1998 Netherlands, 2006 Portugal, 2018 Sweden.

As for why I think CONMEBOL has a stronger half spot than UEFA would. A few years ago I tried taking some pretty simple metrics to determine the strength of the different confederations at the World Cup. CONMEBOL was the clear winner. They had the best points per game, so they were the best on average, but they were also the only confederation to never have a team go 0-3 in the group stage in the 32 team World Cup era (from 1998 through 2018. I know I said I did it a few years ago, but I added 2018 numbers since then) so they are never sending weak teams, wheras UEFA has had 2 teams go 0-3 in that time period.

I don't have numbers on how many make it to the knockout round. Maybe someday I'll look into that, but not right now.

[Blizzard]

4 hours ago, Free kick said:

Thanks for the clarification.   I was trying to look it up to see if Europe was one of the four but couldn’t find anything.    If it actually was,  then I would have said we have literally no chance what so ever given that the top concacaf side (Mexico) would have been a significant underdog against the potential 15th qualifier from Europe.  

Going from what we saw at recent World Cup qualifiers,  that last team that just barely finished out of qualifying in UEFA could have been a side like Holland,  Ireland or Italy.  Not even Mexico would stand chance.  Mexico might even be hard pressed against the hypothetical South American side. 

Ya but in the last cycle, Mexico got New Zealand!