U17 World Cup 2019 in Brazil

[Acid-Tone]

6 minutes ago, toontownman said:

Fool me once... 

Bloody hell a deserved exit from the WC unfortunately. 

You watched less than 20% of this game, but you're sure the boys deserve to be knocked out of the world cup?

(BTW, they aren't eliminated yet.  4 of the 6 3rd place teams advance from the group stage.  So a win over New Zealand and some luck with other results could see them advance)

[Gian-Luca]

I only saw the 2nd half, but unfortunately while the overall talent level of our youth players seems to be increasing there still seems to be some naivety on the part of our players - i.e. players shooting when the should pass, or dribbling when they should pass or hitting the long ball when shorter pass options are available (and then not actually hitting the long ball pass). John Helm pointed out that one player took a shot from distance when he had about 4 options closer to goal to pass to who would have been all alone on the keeper, and that chance late with Kerr - if he squared the ball to Nelson instead of shooting with this left, Nelson has a tap in to give Canada a lead with 15 minutes to go. Nelson often looked like the only attacker that was playing a team game first. He seems a cut above most of the players from a tactical perspective, although TFC's other attacker out there, Russell-Rowe, also looks a very good prospect as does Facchineri, Pelice and Habibullah. Lot to be encouraged about, but our youth coaches still need to add "Cunning and Shrewdness 101" to their curriculum.

[The Ref]

19 minutes ago, Colliedor said:

good start in the second half. Poor the rest of the way.

Gk makes some good saves, but man he leaves big ass rebounds.

We didn't deserve the win. Play to slow and scared.

In the end of the day, results aren't the biggest deal breaker. Realistically, only about 3-4 players actually have a real shot of just being LOOKED at by the senior team in the future. None of them may even play. As long as those big prospects at least play well and learn from this experience, that's all that really matters.

One would expect that fatso Olivieri as a former goalkeeper he should teach his GK how to play.  Olivieri can't even do that!  CSA get rid of the bum.

[Lansdude]

15 minutes ago, Gian-Luca said:

I only saw the 2nd half, but unfortunately while the overall talent level of our youth players seems to be increasing there still seems to be some naivety on the part of our players - i.e. players shooting when the should pass, or dribbling when they should pass or hitting the long ball when shorter pass options are available (and then not actually hitting the long ball pass). John Helm pointed out that one player took a shot from distance when he had about 4 options closer to goal to pass to who would have been all alone on the keeper, and that chance late with Kerr - if he squared the ball to Nelson instead of shooting with this left, Nelson has a tap in to give Canada a lead with 15 minutes to go. Nelson often looked like the only attacker that was playing a team game first. He seems a cut above most of the players from a tactical perspective, although TFC's other attacker out there, Russell-Rowe, also looks a very good prospect as does Facchineri, Pelice and Habibullah. Lot to be encouraged about, but our youth coaches still need to add "Cunning and Shrewdness 101" to their curriculum.

Maybe we're still at the youth talent scouting level where we're only noticing the equivalent of the pickup game ballhog dribbler who doesn't pass and goes past two defenders and then loses the ball.

[Floortom]

24 minutes ago, Gian-Luca said:

I only saw the 2nd half, but unfortunately while the overall talent level of our youth players seems to be increasing there still seems to be some naivety on the part of our players - i.e. players shooting when the should pass, or dribbling when they should pass or hitting the long ball when shorter pass options are available (and then not actually hitting the long ball pass). John Helm pointed out that one player took a shot from distance when he had about 4 options closer to goal to pass to who would have been all alone on the keeper, and that chance late with Kerr - if he squared the ball to Nelson instead of shooting with this left, Nelson has a tap in to give Canada a lead with 15 minutes to go. Nelson often looked like the only attacker that was playing a team game first. He seems a cut above most of the players from a tactical perspective, although TFC's other attacker out there, Russell-Rowe, also looks a very good prospect as does Facchineri, Pelice and Habibullah. Lot to be encouraged about, but our youth coaches still need to add "Cunning and Shrewdness 101" to their curriculum.

I don’t want to call out individual teens here but I have to say I completely disagree with your take on Nelson. I thought he really struggled with his decision making for the most part 

[toontownman]

39 minutes ago, Acid-Tone said:

You watched less than 20% of this game, but you're sure the boys deserve to be knocked out of the world cup?

(BTW, they aren't eliminated yet.  4 of the 6 3rd place teams advance from the group stage.  So a win over New Zealand and some luck with other results could see them advance)

Fair play, I am talking total shite there!

Also not factoring the heat of the environment that set in the last 3rd of the game. The players were done and couldn't do basics like pass properly. 

Our players, especially youth always seem to struggle with the heat and fade badly. The CSA has to find solutions and deeper pockets/more funds to provide platforms for all of our teams to travel train and play in different environments if we dont want to fall at early hurdles in qualifying or tournaments.

It should he lessons learned and trying to stay more mentally tough. Didnt know there was still a way through!

[Ingham]

2 hours ago, Acid-Tone said:

You watched less than 20% of this game, but you're sure the boys deserve to be knocked out of the world cup?

(BTW, they aren't eliminated yet.  4 of the 6 3rd place teams advance from the group stage.  So a win over New Zealand and some luck with other results could see them advance)

Looking at your goal difference, I wouldn't hold your breath.

[Gian-Luca]

Brazil took the lead on NZ 1-0 but then got a player sent off later in the first half. Still 1-0 in the 50th minute

[Stryker911]

If we beat New Zealand then we will finish 3rd. 4 of the 6 3rd place teams go through. In group E Tajikistan beat Cameroon 1-0 in the first game. They both have remaining games against Spain and Argentina, so not unreasonable that they will lose big. The we need the 3rd and 4th place teams in ground c and/or d to tie... Or Solomon Islands to pull off a miracle.

On another note looking at the US team it is crazy to think that they have 7x's the amount of MLS teams and they still have 4 European and 3 USL based players.

[Ingham]

14 minutes ago, Stryker911 said:

If we beat New Zealand then we will finish 3rd. 4 of the 6 3rd place teams go through. In group E Tajikistan beat Cameroon 1-0 in the first game. They both have remaining games against Spain and Argentina, so not unreasonable that they will lose big. The we need the 3rd and 4th place teams in ground c and/or d to tie... Or Solomon Islands to pull off a miracle.

On another note looking at the US team it is crazy to think that they have 7x's the amount of MLS teams and they still have 4 European and 3 USL based players.

Tajikistan is a very defensive team and they reached the final in Asia. Argentina are a dull side that usually win by 1 or 2.

Again, with your goal difference I wouldn't hold your breath. It's possible but a very slim chance.

[Kadenge]

At the youth level, athleticism usually trumps skill ....unless you have both like Brazil or the team has had a lot of time together to gel and we  know that never happens. Our players over the two games could not cope with the pace of the game...not just speed of opposition players but speed of decision making, passing, tackling and moving into space. Perhaps our youth players are not playing at a high enough level that pushes them hard . It is easy  for complacency to set in. We had chances to win the game but there was a lot of sloppy passing. We gave the ball away a lot as we did vs Brazil. So it comes down to prep/coaching or the quality of the players. Hopefully Herdman can get a handle on our youth teams. We need to get better if they are going to be the pipeline for the CMNT.

[red card]

Agree that our skill level has improved but we're tactically quite slow and naive. 

During qualifying and now, I thought individually and as a team, they were quite casual. Other than a few minutes against Brasil and the first part of the first and second halves today, they didn't show any cutting edge while there were at least 3-4 Angloans who showed much more hunger.

At the same, they tend to make muff their lines in front of goal and back to goal. Lots of self-inflicted wounds with 4 preventable goals allowed.

 

 

[Gian-Luca]

New Zealand ended up losing 3-0 to 10-man (for the majority of the match) Brazil. I believe we "jump" into 3rd in the group by having scored one more goal that NZ. Of course that means nothing if we don't beat them and get help elsewhere.

[Kent]

Lots of permutations for what can happen, but at the moment groups B and D look to be our best bets to finish ahead of for third place ranking.

If we beat New Zealand we will be on 3 points with a worst case goal difference of -3. Group B will have their third place team with one point if Nigeria beats Australia and Ecuador beats Hungary. Group D with one game played for each team has two teams at -3 goal difference. Another multi goal loss for those teams and a single goal win or a draw when they face each other and we would be ahead of them.

But at this point I just want a win regardless of whether we move on or not. 7th time in this tournament and still 0 wins. I started watching today at half time and it really looked like we were going to win for a while. It is frustrating that we didn’t even get a draw.

Edited October 30, 2019 by Kent

[El Hombre]

Olivieri has this team playing like my Friday night pub team.  As soon as we have the ball and start moving forward, the front five start making breakaway runs.  There is no link between the back line and the front line.  This is exactly what the problem was during qualifying and it looks like it is even worse now.

There is no supporting the player on the ball and there are so few passes under 10 yards.  The only time that happens is when we move forward, realize there is no outlet and pass it back to the defenders.  No way this team is going to be successful if that is how the coach is managing the team.

[apbsmith]

I haven't watched any games, so I can only comment on those two pics but if that is how our player movements are set up, definitely Friday night rec league style. 

Especially based on those pics, if I was NZ I would be cranking the high press like crazy against us. 

Sounds like we have quite a bit of individual talent, hopefully the lads come together and figure it out for the final game. 

[Jith12]

It was always going to be difficult to use the Brazil match to diagnose this team's problems. But yesterday really showed where the flaws lie. Individually, our front three is very good. Simply put, Habibullah is a genius on the ball. For a player who just turned 16 last week, his vision and creativity is world class. Nelson is also extremely talented, albeit he tried to do too much at times. Russell-Rowe is prolific, he takes his chances (21 goals in 16 games for TFC U19 this season). At the back, Facchineri is dominant. He is good positionally and can make a solid challenge when he needs to.

The problem with this team is the lack of cohesion. The defense, midfield and offense play as three separate units. The midfield was completely incapable of playing a decent final ball because they were so disconnected. The front three were completely isolated, making the individual talent of a player like Habibullah useless. The screengrabs that @El Hombre posted illustrate this perfectly. I'm never one to call for heads to roll, but we need coaching staff that can implement a simple tactical system. We had the same problem with the U20's last year. This team has players that will play professionally, potentially at very high levels. At the senior level, we have seen Herdman preach "tactical periodization". The periodization philosophy emphasizes attacking organization, defensive organization, transition from defense to offense and vice versa. At the senior level, this has worked quite well. Why are we not seeing this philosophy trickle down to the youth levels? We need coaching that is capable of teaching and implementing tactical philosophies. By just putting our best players on the field without a visible plan we are doing them a serious disservice.

[Kadenge]

33 minutes ago, Jith12 said:

It was always going to be difficult to use the Brazil match to diagnose this team's problems. But yesterday really showed where the flaws lie. Individually, our front three is very good. Simply put, Habibullah is a genius on the ball. For a player who just turned 16 last week, his vision and creativity is world class. Nelson is also extremely talented, albeit he tried to do too much at times. Russell-Rowe is prolific, he takes his chances (21 goals in 16 games for TFC U19 this season). At the back, Facchineri is dominant. He is good positionally and can make a solid challenge when he needs to.

The problem with this team is the lack of cohesion. The defense, midfield and offense play as three separate units. The midfield was completely incapable of playing a decent final ball because they were so disconnected. The front three were completely isolated, making the individual talent of a player like Habibullah useless. The screengrabs that @El Hombre posted illustrate this perfectly. I'm never one to call for heads to roll, but we need coaching staff that can implement a simple tactical system. We had the same problem with the U20's last year. This team has players that will play professionally, potentially at very high levels. At the senior level, we have seen Herdman preach "tactical periodization". The periodization philosophy emphasizes attacking organization, defensive organization, transition from defense to offense and vice versa. At the senior level, this has worked quite well. Why are we not seeing this philosophy trickle down to the youth levels? We need coaching that is capable of teaching and implementing tactical philosophies. By just putting our best players on the field without a visible plan we are doing them a serious disservice.

Bingo. The last 2 games were  a reflection of how they played in the Concacaf qualifiers as well.

[El Hombre]

9 minutes ago, Kadenge said:

Bingo. The last 2 games were  a reflection of how they played in the Concacaf qualifiers as well.

And that's probably the most disappointing thing.  One would've hoped that they would've used the last four months to look at how the team performed and try to fix problems.  I don't see any of that.

[Shway]

The team looks like they were put together 2 weeks before the tournament. There's absolutely no cohesion, and no type of game plan other than to hit teams on the counter/hope Jayden & Kamron can create something. I though that was only going to be for Brazil, but sh!t was it bad against Angola. 

Maybe we're understating Angola, cause they did have a few tricky fast players, but I see no system. No tactical game plan. With this, I don't expect much. 

 

 

[Obinna]

21 hours ago, Gian-Luca said:

I only saw the 2nd half, but unfortunately while the overall talent level of our youth players seems to be increasing there still seems to be some naivety on the part of our players - i.e. players shooting when the should pass, or dribbling when they should pass or hitting the long ball when shorter pass options are available (and then not actually hitting the long ball pass). John Helm pointed out that one player took a shot from distance when he had about 4 options closer to goal to pass to who would have been all alone on the keeper, and that chance late with Kerr - if he squared the ball to Nelson instead of shooting with this left, Nelson has a tap in to give Canada a lead with 15 minutes to go. Nelson often looked like the only attacker that was playing a team game first. He seems a cut above most of the players from a tactical perspective, although TFC's other attacker out there, Russell-Rowe, also looks a very good prospect as does Facchineri, Pelice and Habibullah. Lot to be encouraged about, but our youth coaches still need to add "Cunning and Shrewdness 101" to their curriculum.

I haven't seen any of the games yet, but I wanted to chime in, because I wonder if such poor decisions are the result of a lack of good games against good teams. Good for our players to have skill and technical ability, but it sounds like it is being wasted by poor decision making.

I am not saying playing more prep games this cycle would have changed anything for this cycle, but I would say that in future cycles, we should be playing more so that we improve in our decision making.

Edited October 30, 2019 by Obinna

[El Hombre]

I hate to continue to beat the same drum but if you don't give the kids a system to play in, they're going to make bad decisions.  If you give them a system, the bad decisions should be less.

[red card]

1 hour ago, Shway said:

The team looks like they were put together 2 weeks before the tournament. There's absolutely no cohesion, and no type of game plan other than to hit teams on the counter/hope Jayden & Kamron can create something. I though that was only going to be for Brazil, but sh!t was it bad against Angola. 

Maybe we're understating Angola, cause they did have a few tricky fast players, but I see no system. No tactical game plan. With this, I don't expect much. 

 

 

The tactics are similar to the senior national team. As he set up with the women, Herdman likes an unified system played across the age groups. It didn't help with the women's youth teams in terms of winning all the time since you might not have always the right youth players for the system. And they're not as disciplined and/or well versed to follow it.

Based on the Brasil match, the pass map showed they basically went up both wings and did nothing up the middle. This could be because Kamron only came as a sub and the central backs played it safe. One of the mids - Kerr - was also finding space up front on the wings. And the bulk of the passes by the defensive mids were to the wings - could be Brasil bottled up the middle and/or they took the easy outlet route - which was Nelson.

When you have dominant player like Nelson, it can become a default choice. Great when he produces like he did in qualifying but he seems to have been scouted well by both Brasil & Angola. Plus, they had players who were as pacy as him. But others need to move with Nelson to provide him with an escape hatch - but this rarely happened.

[Kadenge]

8 minutes ago, red card said:

The tactics are similar to the senior national team. As he set up with the women, Herdman likes an unified system played across the age groups. It didn't help with the women's youth teams in terms of winning all the time since you might not have always the right youth players for the system. And they're not as disciplined and/or well versed to follow it.

Based on the Brasil match, the pass map showed they basically went up both wings and did nothing up the middle. This could be because Kamron only came as a sub and the central backs played it safe. One of the mids - Kerr - was also finding space up front on the wings. And the bulk of the passes by the defensive mids were to the wings - could be Brasil bottled up the middle and/or they took the easy outlet route - which was Nelson.

When you have dominant player like Nelson, it can become a default choice. Great when he produces like he did in qualifying but he seems to have been scouted well by both Brasil & Angola. Plus, they had players who were as pacy as him. But others need to move with Nelson to provide him with an escape hatch - but this rarely happened.

Unless the players are not executing the system implemented, I am struggling to see the similarity with how  the men's team play. Their "style of play" has been consistent over the past 6 games. I know that JH spent a lot of time with the 3 MLS academies where all but 1 of the players are from. The biggest issue is the separation between the forwards/ mids and defenders and I have not seen that with the men's team under JH.

[gardencity]

Been a while since I posted, go Canada against the US in about 2 weeks. As for this U-17 team, lots of talent, and moments of true quality, but so many spilled balls, poor passes, and we were much slower than Angola. the kid on their right side up front had a free pass all night into our box, it was a matter of time before we lost. When are we ever going to win a game at this level????