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Gender Equality: FIFA: "Fair Play" = "Fair Pay?" VAR

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Does FIFA's "Fair Play" = "Fair Pay?"

Gender equality is not only a fundamental human right, but a necessary foundation for a peaceful, prosperous and sustainable world.

Total attendance for the matches played at Russia 2018 was 3,031,768.

Average attendance per game played at Russia 2018 was 47,371.

Total prize money paid out by FIFA at Russia 2018 was 350 million euro

World champions (France); 32.1 million euro

Runners up (Croatia): 23.6 million euro

Although the final attendance numbers for France 2019 will not be known until after this weekend's final two matches, we do already know how much the prize money that FIFA will pay out to each of the participating nations, which are as follows:

World Champions: 3.5 million euro

2nd place: 2.3 million euro

3rd place: 1.7 million euro

4th place: 1.4 million euro

Quarter finalists: 1.3 million euro

9th place to 16th place: 1 million euro

17th place to 24th place: 750,000 euro

Total prize money: 26.5 million euro (approximately).

While the women competed for 26.5 million euro, the men played for 350 million euro, or more than 13 times as much!!!

I ask again: Does FIFA's "Fair Play" = "Fair Pay?"

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Differences do not immediately mean it is unfair. I thought, as a % of the total revenue the payout for the women was higher, even though the total is less.

Tickets for games in France were $9.

I was watching a World Cup game last year in a bar, and the lady at the table was complaining about this. I listed off the last 5 women's games played here and asked her which ones she went to. None of them, because she only watches the French men's team.... well....anecdotal, but poignant. 

 

 

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4 hours ago, Binky said:

Does FIFA's "Fair Play" = "Fair Pay?"

Gender equality is not only a fundamental human right, but a necessary foundation for a peaceful, prosperous and sustainable world.

Total attendance for the matches played at Russia 2018 was 3,031,768.

Average attendance per game played at Russia 2018 was 47,371.

Total prize money paid out by FIFA at Russia 2018 was 350 million euro

World champions (France); 32.1 million euro

Runners up (Croatia): 23.6 million euro

Although the final attendance numbers for France 2019 will not be known until after this weekend's final two matches, we do already know how much the prize money that FIFA will pay out to each of the participating nations, which are as follows:

World Champions: 3.5 million euro

2nd place: 2.3 million euro

3rd place: 1.7 million euro

4th place: 1.4 million euro

Quarter finalists: 1.3 million euro

9th place to 16th place: 1 million euro

17th place to 24th place: 750,000 euro

Total prize money: 26.5 million euro (approximately).

While the women competed for 26.5 million euro, the men played for 350 million euro, or more than 13 times as much!!!

I ask again: Does FIFA's "Fair Play" = "Fair Pay?"

Yes, the WWC isn't over yet but attendance figures are available. If you had included it, your answer is simple: It is fair pay given how much more revenue the men's WC generates. And we apply the same metrics to the tv revenue, the answer is more obvious. Basically, about 90% of FIFA's revenue is generated from 1 tourney - men's WC. Everything else is being subsidized.

And as noted above, the women's teams actually get a larger share of their WC revenue than the men's team do.

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5 hours ago, admin said:

Differences do not immediately mean it is unfair. I thought, as a % of the total revenue the payout for the women was higher, even though the total is less.

Tickets for games in France were $9.

I was watching a World Cup game last year in a bar, and the lady at the table was complaining about this. I listed off the last 5 women's games played here and asked her which ones she went to. None of them, because she only watches the French men's team.... well....anecdotal, but poignant. 

I think the most fair yard-stick to use in determining the equality of the prize money between the Women's World Cup Final and the Men's World Cup Final, would involve:

1) Using only data directly related to actual World Cup Final tournaments.

2) Because of the difference in the number of participating nations, and the number of matches played at Women's and Men's World Cup tournaments, to use only average numbers, instead of total numbers, for both attendance numbers and gate receipt numbers.

3) Auditing all FIFA revenue streams from all sources, i.e. ticket sales, merchandising, broadcast rights, advertising, etc.

To conduct such an undertaking would of course require the expertise of one of the largest international accounting firm. Therefore, for now, let's keep the discussion simple and focus only on the actual average attendance per match figures of both the Women's World Cup Final and the Men's World Cup Final.

Admin mentioned that tickets for the Women's World Cup Final games in France went for $9. Like what does that figure represent? Is it possible to buy a good seat for tomorrow's World Cup Final between the United States and the Netherlands for $9? If that's the case, tickets have sure come down in price since the 2015 World Cup Final in Vancouver. I know, because I attended that match. In order to be eligible to buy a ticket to the Final (the U.S.A. versus Japan), which cost a whole lot more than $9, I had to first purchase a FIFA package, which included one double-header of group matches, one round of 16 match, and one quarter final match (Canada - England). Again, for each of these tickets FIFA charged me way more than $9 a ticket. So again, maybe it is possible that you and the Voyageurs get a special rate from FIFA, but that's not my experience. BTW I will scan an image of my 2015 World Cup Final ticket and attach it to this thread if you do the same with your $9 ticket from France 2019. As a matter of fact, I could so with tickets going back as far as Italia 1990.

Anyhow, I digress. Returning to actual facts... Speaking of Canada 2015, let's look at a few FIFA figures for that tournament:

https://www.fifa.com/womensworldcup/news/key-figures-from-the-fifa-women-s-world-cup-canada-2015tm-2661648

Attendance Stats
Total attendance: 1,353,506
Average attendance: 26,029
Biggest attendance: 54,027 for the Canada vs. England quarter-final in Vancouver
Seven matches had over 50,000 spectators in attendance
Canada 2015 set a new total attendance record for a FIFA competition other than the FIFA World Cup

Thus far, I don't see Men's World Cup average attendance figures being 13 times greater than Women's World Cup average attendance figures. So on this one particular point I definitely have have to say NO - FIFA's "Fair Play" does not equal "Fair Pay."

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Posted (edited)

An article this year in Forbes:

As Dwight Jaynes pointed out four years ago after the U.S. women beat Japan to capture the World Cup in Vancouver, there is a big difference in the revenue availableto pay the teams. The Women’s World Cup brought in almost $73 million, of which the players got 13%. The 2010 men’s World Cup in South Africa made almost $4 billion, of which 9% went to the players.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/mikeozanian/2019/03/07/world-cup-soccer-pay-disparity-between-men-and-women-is-justified/#12e291d26da4

Edited by Lofty

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56 minutes ago, Binky said:

I think the most fair yard-stick to use in determining the equality of the prize money between the Women's World Cup Final and the Men's World Cup Final, would involve:

1) Using only data directly related to actual World Cup Final tournaments.

2) Because of the difference in the number of participating nations, and the number of matches played at Women's and Men's World Cup tournaments, to use only average numbers, instead of total numbers, for both attendance numbers and gate receipt numbers.

3) Auditing all FIFA revenue streams from all sources, i.e. ticket sales, merchandising, broadcast rights, advertising, etc.

To conduct such an undertaking would of course require the expertise of one of the largest international accounting firm. Therefore, for now, let's keep the discussion simple and focus only on the actual average attendance per match figures of both the Women's World Cup Final and the Men's World Cup Final.

Admin mentioned that tickets for the Women's World Cup Final games in France went for $9. Like what does that figure represent? Is it possible to buy a good seat for tomorrow's World Cup Final between the United States and the Netherlands for $9? If that's the case, tickets have sure come down in price since the 2015 World Cup Final in Vancouver. I know, because I attended that match. In order to be eligible to buy a ticket to the Final (the U.S.A. versus Japan), which cost a whole lot more than $9, I had to first purchase a FIFA package, which included one double-header of group matches, one round of 16 match, and one quarter final match (Canada - England). Again, for each of these tickets FIFA charged me way more than $9 a ticket. So again, maybe it is possible that you and the Voyageurs get a special rate from FIFA, but that's not my experience. BTW I will scan an image of my 2015 World Cup Final ticket and attach it to this thread if you do the same with your $9 ticket from France 2019. As a matter of fact, I could so with tickets going back as far as Italia 1990.

Anyhow, I digress. Returning to actual facts... Speaking of Canada 2015, let's look at a few FIFA figures for that tournament:

https://www.fifa.com/womensworldcup/news/key-figures-from-the-fifa-women-s-world-cup-canada-2015tm-2661648

Attendance Stats
Total attendance: 1,353,506
Average attendance: 26,029
Biggest attendance: 54,027 for the Canada vs. England quarter-final in Vancouver
Seven matches had over 50,000 spectators in attendance
Canada 2015 set a new total attendance record for a FIFA competition other than the FIFA World Cup

Thus far, I don't see Men's World Cup average attendance figures being 13 times greater than Women's World Cup average attendance figures. So on this one particular point I definitely have have to say NO - FIFA's "Fair Play" does not equal "Fair Pay."

Well, I don't need to prove anything to you. Tickets to group stage games could be had for 9 Euro, sorry not $9.    Not a big difference there.  Not worth  quibbling over. The difference in revenue is clear. Comparing it to the final is just disingenuous. 

You are looking to be a white knight here and start an argument by cherry picking numbers.

Not biting.  

Have fun.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Binky said:

I think the most fair yard-stick to use in determining the equality of the prize money between the Women's World Cup Final and the Men's World Cup Final, would involve:

1) Using only data directly related to actual World Cup Final tournaments.

2) Because of the difference in the number of participating nations, and the number of matches played at Women's and Men's World Cup tournaments, to use only average numbers, instead of total numbers, for both attendance numbers and gate receipt numbers.

3) Auditing all FIFA revenue streams from all sources, i.e. ticket sales, merchandising, broadcast rights, advertising, etc.

To conduct such an undertaking would of course require the expertise of one of the largest international accounting firm. Therefore, for now, let's keep the discussion simple and focus only on the actual average attendance per match figures of both the Women's World Cup Final and the Men's World Cup Final.

Admin mentioned that tickets for the Women's World Cup Final games in France went for $9. Like what does that figure represent? Is it possible to buy a good seat for tomorrow's World Cup Final between the United States and the Netherlands for $9? If that's the case, tickets have sure come down in price since the 2015 World Cup Final in Vancouver. I know, because I attended that match. In order to be eligible to buy a ticket to the Final (the U.S.A. versus Japan), which cost a whole lot more than $9, I had to first purchase a FIFA package, which included one double-header of group matches, one round of 16 match, and one quarter final match (Canada - England). Again, for each of these tickets FIFA charged me way more than $9 a ticket. So again, maybe it is possible that you and the Voyageurs get a special rate from FIFA, but that's not my experience. BTW I will scan an image of my 2015 World Cup Final ticket and attach it to this thread if you do the same with your $9 ticket from France 2019. As a matter of fact, I could so with tickets going back as far as Italia 1990.

Anyhow, I digress. Returning to actual facts... Speaking of Canada 2015, let's look at a few FIFA figures for that tournament:

https://www.fifa.com/womensworldcup/news/key-figures-from-the-fifa-women-s-world-cup-canada-2015tm-2661648

Attendance Stats
Total attendance: 1,353,506
Average attendance: 26,029
Biggest attendance: 54,027 for the Canada vs. England quarter-final in Vancouver
Seven matches had over 50,000 spectators in attendance
Canada 2015 set a new total attendance record for a FIFA competition other than the FIFA World Cup

Thus far, I don't see Men's World Cup average attendance figures being 13 times greater than Women's World Cup average attendance figures. So on this one particular point I definitely have have to say NO - FIFA's "Fair Play" does not equal "Fair Pay."

You are deliberately trying to obfuscate the issue. Players are paid out of REVENUE. TOTAL prize money paid to all teams as a % of TOTAL revenue is a perfectly good (and simple) measure for comparison.

See the Forbes article I posted above, which you are quietly ignoring. The women are actually OVER paid by FIFA when compared to the men.

I 100% support fairness for the women but fairness is not the same thing as equality. The more money you generate, the more you make. That is fair.

Edited by Lofty

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1 hour ago, admin said:

Well, I don't need to prove anything to you. Tickets to group stage games could be had for 9 Euro, sorry not $9.    Not a big difference there.  Not worth  quibbling over. The difference in revenue is clear. Comparing it to the final is just disingenuous. 

You are looking to be a white knight here and start an argument by cherry picking numbers.

Not biting.  

Have fun.

Just because my meaning seems to need to be spelled out for you:

In "most" cases when I use the Final with the "F" capitalize, I am referring to the tournament host by a country. It is always used in a singular context.

In "all" cases when I refer the the championship match the "f" is in lower case.

Run away, if you like, but you don't have to do so on my account. I've been called a whole lot worse than a "white knight," and to tell you the truth, I've never really cared what anybody thinks about me. That's really none of my business!

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1 hour ago, Lofty said:

I 100% support fairness for the women but fairness is not the same thing as equality. The more money you generate, the more you make. That is fair.

I agree 100%

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Posted (edited)

It will be interesting to see what the average attendance per match will be for the 2022 World Cup in Qatar. Like is anyone on this board planning a trip to Qatar a month before Christmas in 2022?😂😂😂 Even if Canada qualifies as Herdman has promises?🤣🤣🤣 How much is round-trip airfare to Doha?😪😪😪 How much is a ten-day stay at a hotel in Doha going to set you back?😪😪😪 Will you have $9 (9 Riyals) left for a ticket to each game (sorry, couldn't help myself)? Is everybody up on their Sharia law?😲😲😲 

Come to think of it, I'm gonna stay home, buy a nice new television, and watch everybody sweat from the comfort of my couch.😜😜😜

Edited by Binky

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1 minute ago, Binky said:

It will be interesting to see what the average attendance per match will be for the 2022 World Cup in Qatar. Like is anyone on this board planning a trip to Qatar a month before Christmas in 2022?😂😂😂 Even if Canada qualifies as Herdman has promises?🤣🤣🤣 How much is round-trip airfare to Doha?😪😪😪 How much is a ten-day stay at a hotel in Doha going to set you back?😪😪😪 Will you have $9 left for a ticket to each game (sorry, couldn't help myself)? Is everybody up on their Sharia law?😲😲😲

Come to think of it, I'm gonna stay home, buy a nice new television, and watch everybody sweat from the comfort of my couch.😜😜😜

No way. 

If we make Qatar, you are coming. 

We will start a criminal syndicate of some sort so we can all afford it.

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I wonder???

Will they have enough beer in Doha to keep all the Dutch supporters happy?

And Hey Lofty, be sure you bring your wife. I hear they love "Western Women" there.

Speaking of which, I wonder how many "Western Women" will be going???

Bang on Admin! I'm coming.

"Have fun." "Will travel." 

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Posted (edited)

The funniest thing of all is that @InfantinoGianni wanted to expand this tournament. The only problem with that idea was that he couldn't find 48 countries that were willing to go.

Expect to see a lot of Arab countries that qualify for this tournament.

Maybe MO will win the cup. Yeah, I think Egypt will be the odds on favourites, for sure.

Edited by Binky

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On 7/6/2019 at 3:38 PM, Lofty said:

You are deliberately trying to obfuscate the issue. Players are paid out of REVENUE. TOTAL prize money paid to all teams as a % of TOTAL revenue is a perfectly good (and simple) measure for comparison.

See the Forbes article I posted above, which you are quietly ignoring. The women are actually OVER paid by FIFA when compared to the men.

I 100% support fairness for the women but fairness is not the same thing as equality. The more money you generate, the more you make. That is fair.

If, in your opinion, I am deliberately trying to obfuscate the issue, and while on the other hand you quote Forbes as claiming that "the women are actually OVER paid by FIFA when compared to the men, the please explain why on earth  "FIFA president Gianni Infantino proposed an expansion of the Women's World Cup from 24 to 32 teams, possibly starting with the 2023 edition, as well as doubling the tournament's prize money?"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2023_FIFA_Women's_World_Cup

Is it possible G.I. has heard the world and is admitting that at FIFA "Fair Play" does not equal "Fair Pay?" Or is he frightened that a U.S.A.-led move might have women's soccer break away from FIFA's monopoly on international spoccer? Double is hardly enough.

VIVA the end of FIFA!

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5 hours ago, Binky said:

If, in your opinion, I am deliberately trying to obfuscate the issue, and while on the other hand you quote Forbes as claiming that "the women are actually OVER paid by FIFA when compared to the men, the please explain why on earth  "FIFA president Gianni Infantino proposed an expansion of the Women's World Cup from 24 to 32 teams, possibly starting with the 2023 edition, as well as doubling the tournament's prize money?"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2023_FIFA_Women's_World_Cup

Is it possible G.I. has heard the world and is admitting that at FIFA "Fair Play" does not equal "Fair Pay?" Or is he frightened that a U.S.A.-led move might have women's soccer break away from FIFA's monopoly on international spoccer? Double is hardly enough.

VIVA the end of FIFA!

I am no fan of FIFA. In fact, I despise them.

If you are not trying to obfuscate the issue, presumably to divert attention from the rather obvious fact that the women are paid a significantly higher percentage of total revenue than the men, then perhaps you could explain what is wrong with using the very simple  comparison metric of percentage of total revenue paid out as prize money. There is no need to delve into averages or attendances, or compare ticket prices.

And what does your obfuscation or that Forbes article have to do with WWC expansion? FIFA are expanding for the same reason as always: to generate more revenue with which to line their greedy little pockets.

As for their reasons for increasing the total prize money to women, I can only speculate but I suspect that the squeaky wheel is getting some grease. Of course it is more likely to encourage rather than stem the screeching but then FIFA have never been known for their intelligence.

If women footballers think they can make more money by breaking away from FIFA, and can successfully rally all the important women's footballing nations in the world to do so, I for one wish them the very best of luck!

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I find it fascinating that for years the Canadian women soccer players were able, through their achievements on the pitch and the manner in which they represented Canada, to generate way more Canadian public attention and interest than Canadian men soccer players have ever done. On our old board they were the darlings of the Voyageurs. Today, now that the Canadian men have what could be considered "a golden generation" of players, the Voyageurs have dropped their interest in the women's game like a hot potato. Look at how many post regularly on this forum: There's you, Vic, the Ref, and myself (periodically). Like what happened? Where is everybody? Where has all the support for our women gone?

With Christine Sinclair eventually retiring, combined with the lack of support the women's game receives from FIFA, the CSA, and the Voyageurs, you find it necessary to poop on someone who tries to stand up and support our women. Is that what you're really trying to accomplish with your line obfuscating?

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Posted (edited)

^ When I say "obfuscating" I am only talking about the World Cup pay comparison between women and men. (You are deliberately trying to make the comparison look harder than it actually is.) Which has exactly nothing to do with anything you have said in the post above!

I'm not trying to poop on anyone: my point is merely that the comparison is simple and as a percentage of revenue, which is a very fair way to compare, it is actually the men who are paid less.

With that said, there is no way around the fact that globally there is much more interest in men's football. But with each Women's World Cup, interest in the women's game seems to increase. One of the World Cup commentators said that in England, a country of around 66 million people, peak TV viewing numbers for the semi vs. USA topped 10 million!

Edited by Lofty

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Article: July 8th, 2019.

There is a pay gap in soccer, no doubt. But to the dismay of social justice warriors, they have incorrectly identified the victim of the skewed pay. It is in fact men who are not earning their fair share, comparatively.

...

In yesterday’s World Cup, participating teams received over 22 per cent of the revenue, whereas men only received seven per cent of the revenue in last year’s World Cup in Russia. Women are actually earning over three times more than men.

Because the Men’s World Cup made north of six billion dollars, that seven per cent equates to 400 million dollars for the teams.

The Women’s World Cup only earnedaround 130 million dollars, so the 22 per cent is only 30 million dollars.

Not only has the wrong victim of skewed pay been identified, but the wrong motive as well. The gap has nothing to do with “institutionalized gender discrimination” and everything to do with fewer people wanting to watch women’s soccer.

https://humanevents.com/2019/07/08/there-should-be-equal-pay-for-the-world-cup-that-means-paying-men-more/?utm_referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fduckduckgo.com%2F

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A good question to ask is: Is 30 million dollars enough money to go around?  National programs are not cheap to operate.  I don't think it is enough money.  With over 6 billion dollars in revenue, would it kill FIFA to hand over a few tens of million dollars more to the women's programs?  It would make a huge difference in many country's programs.  It may even be good business sense in that the revenues from the women's side of things could go way up if the quality and viewer numbers keeps going up (a factor of 40 difference in revenues makes it look like there is plenty of room to grow there).  With so much cash available to them, I think it's up to FIFA to explain why so little goes to the women.

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Someone somewhere must have by now written something not steeped in activism and advocacy.

It was explained to me that the two programs are paid differently.   That difference could in the end result in some men getting paid more, and many of the men being paid nothing.  That is they are paid per game, only if they step on the field.  This probably made some sense in that the men at that level all have high paying jobs to fall back on and do not rely on the money from the national team program for income.  Twist your ankle, and you don't get paid.

The women on the other hand were paid a salary.   This almost certainly made sense at one point to build the program.  A large player pool that could focus on development.  Twist your ankle and you can still recover and come back because you have a guaranteed income. 

When asked about this Rapinoe(not sure it was Rapinoe, might have been Morgan) on TV said they will not give up the guaranteed income.  In other words she wants the same money as the top paid men without the risk. 

No article I can find parses out money from FIFA, USSF.   Are USSF appearance fees being conflated with FIFA prize money? How are payments structured as per above?  Are they taking the salary and dividing over the number of games vs the FIFA prize money from a WC quarter final for the men?  All of this matters, and none of it is being made clear.  Looking for a max/min from a standpoint of activism vs honestly getting to the root of the problem.

The key take away in this is that it wasn't set up to be evil. Things were set up for a reason, and it is perfectly reasonable to reevaluate it and negotiate for more money.   My problem with all of this is the manner in which it is being done. It is utterly toxic and divisive in a manner that doesn't seem warranted. 

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