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Should Herdman be fired ?

Should Herdman be fired  

131 members have voted

  1. 1. Should Herdman be fired

    • Yes
      32
    • No
      46
    • Not yet
      53


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Posted (edited)
14 hours ago, maccaliam said:

I don’t think JH should be fired, but do you really not see how Herdman dropped the ball by making poor squad selections and then did not/was unable to adjust tactically in game? 

I feel Herdman imploded as much as the players. He may be able to prepare for the start of a game, but he was unable to change the game positively during the final 45 minutes vs Haiti. That reflects very poorly on his in game managerial skills. 

A point could be made that he wasn't that great in pre game preparation either, especially withe the fullback selections both pre game and pre tournament. 

Second half game management was definitely terrible. 

Edited by king1010

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8 hours ago, BearcatSA said:

This is my take, as well, and you've done a good job of explaining it here.  

The problem with the next round of CNL is that we are going against a shambolic program (Cuba, unless they have some sudden renaissance) but then we get to play the preferred underdog role vs the US, even if the Americans have been far from convincing based on this tourney.  And being the team being in that role, it's easier to manufacture a more nuanced narrative if you come up short than if you were coming in as a favourite and underachieve.

True - although I think the home & away aspect plays in here because we will probably be considered underdogs against the US in the US but I am not so sure that we would be considered such at home.

We should expect to beat Cuba at home without great difficulty but even the away match against ought not to be the cakewalk the Gold Cup match given that the weather  & playing surface/conditions will likely play into Cuba's hands.

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7 minutes ago, Gian-Luca said:

True - although I think the home & away aspect plays in here because we will probably be considered underdogs against the US in the US but I am not so sure that we would be considered such at home.

We should expect to beat Cuba at home without great difficulty but even the away match against ought not to be the cakewalk the Gold Cup match given that the weather  & playing surface/conditions will likely play into Cuba's hands.

I think the coach will be in the underpromise/overdeliver mode in the media for the USA matches, which in most cases involves a language tone of underdog.  And sure, crappy conditions in Havana or wherever we play in Cuba come into play.  But good teams, mentally tough teams, do what they need to do to grind out results. 

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54 minutes ago, SpecialK said:

Why was he on bench ?? 

He  supposed to be director of development. 

I don't see a problem with him being on the bench especially with his wealth of professional experience.

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17 hours ago, Bison44 said:

I missed it when it happened, but Sharman and Molinaro got laid off at Sportsnet??   OHH BOYY!!!  We are really going backwards.  

I can't say I'm surprised about soccer journos getting made redundant with DAZN taking over Premiership coverage to go along with their CCL contract.  TSN still has MLS and these international tournaments so I wonder if Sharman might be able to get a gig there (reuniting with KJ from their days at the Score) 

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2 hours ago, BearcatSA said:

I think the coach will be in the underpromise/overdeliver mode in the media for the USA matches, which in most cases involves a language tone of underdog.  And sure, crappy conditions in Havana or wherever we play in Cuba come into play.  But good teams, mentally tough teams, do what they need to do to grind out results. 

I expect we will win in Cuba, but don't think it will be another 7-0 laugher or even close to it. You may be right about what Herdman says to the media for the US matches , I guess we'll see in due course - although on a separate note, I wouldn't be surprised if underdog/favourite stuff gets tossed out the window/ignored by the media (the Toronto based media especially) either way for the match at BMO and the media focuses almost entirely on the "TFC Civil War" when Altidore, Bradley & Gonzalez go up against Osorio, Laryea and maybe Fraser.* That's assuming Altidore isn't hurt, Bradley is still getting called by Berhalter (I notice that even many of the US pundits who aren't bitter against Bradley are commenting on/noticing that Bradley appears to have lost several steps, never mind just one) and Herdman tries Laryea at right back after seeing his success there for TFC and our own problems at RB in this tourney, and Fraser getting called in if Atiba is gone & Estaquio isn't fit yet. But it seems a reasonable assumption to make.

*Leaving out Shaffelburg for now because of the attacking winger options we already have on the left and its perhaps still too early despite the promising start for the wide-eyed, goofy-grinned kid.

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I think JH has to win all 4 games in Nations League to prove we are going in the right direction. 2 wins vs Cuba and a win(or tie) and a loss vs USA won't prove much. It's pretty much what's expected.

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1 minute ago, MtlMario said:

I think JH has to win all 4 games in Nations League to prove we are going in the right direction. 2 wins vs Cuba and a win(or tie) and a loss vs USA won't prove much. It's pretty much what's expected.

Well if we advance without 4 wins that’s all that matters.

also, I don’t think a win vs USA is “what’s expected” by most neutral / impartial observers. A win against USA would be our best result in a really long time.

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On 7/2/2019 at 5:42 PM, maccaliam said:

.... do you really not see how Herdman dropped the ball by making poor squad selections and then did not/was unable to adjust tactically in game? 

Opinions are like ********, everyone has one.

We lost a quarterfinal game in the Gold Cup by one goal. We didn't **** the bed, and Herdman needs to learn and grow just as the team does. Just as any team does. 

britney spears GIF

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Posted (edited)

Will be watching closely if Herdman acknowledges and improves on his shortcomings which were on full display in the lead up and at the Gold Cup. for canMNT's sake I hope he does. Didn't like the tune of the post match presser but perhaps with some time to reflect and decompress he'll be in a better position to self reflect. 

Also we definitely sh*t the bed in the second half of the QF. 

Edited by king1010

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My expectations for Nations League are as follows:

Bare minimum: Stay up. If we get relegated Herdman should be fired and all of his coaching licenses should be revoked.

Satisfactory: Take points off the Americans. Let's face it, they are sill way ahead of us until we prove otherwise. On paper we can compete, but on paper doesn't capture where both teams are mentally.

Good Job: Make the final round.

Great Job: Make the Championship game.

Outstanding Job: Win Nations League.

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Posted (edited)

Image result for drawing of a runner tripping over a hurdle

Herdman at the 2019 Gold Cup.

Image result for drawing of a runner tripping over a hurdle

Herdman at the 2019 Nations League.

Image result for drawing of a runner tripping over a hurdle

Herdman at 2020 World Cup qualifying.

With a track record like John's, tripping over the first real hurdles he's come up to, how can anyone seriously expect Herdman to be anything other than an total embarrassment when Canada co-hosts the 2026 World Cup! Get rid of the bum. Now!!!

Edited by Binky

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I said he shouldn't be fired. A few points to consider.

I tried to confirm (half-assed) what position MAK played in the 2017 Gold Cup. I feel like he played fullback, but I'm not totally certain. If he did, anyone saying OZ was great and Herdman was **** cause he played people out of position maybe need to rethink things. Especially since the other out of position player seems to be Davies, who has played quite a bit of LB in his career, and some people were even asking for it in the lead up to the Haiti game because the thinking was he could deal with Haiti's speed.

Anyone saying OZ was great and Herdman made questionable calls on who should start the games should maybe remember the controversy about our slow CB's that were picked to play against Jamaica in 2017. Herdman isn't alone in being second guessed on who was starting in the games we got eliminated in.

Anyone saying OZ was fired too early (I agree) and also Herdman should be held to the same standard (i.e. should also be fired too early) should maybe think that through as well. If it was a mistake to fire OZ because of one loss, then why wouldn't it be another mistake to do the same to Herdman? Especially when there is so much less time to find a replacement and get up and running before Nations League and/or WCQ.

Summary of my opinion. Herdman made some mistakes in the quarter-final game. OZ was fired too early. Herdman should be given more time.

P.S. Also ask yourself if you were once in the group that in the Floro era, or right after, were saying they'd be happy to be losing games 3-2 instead of all those low scoring games.

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9 minutes ago, Binky said:

Image result for drawing of a runner tripping over a hurdle

Herdman at the 2019 Gold Cup.

Image result for drawing of a runner tripping over a hurdle

Herdman at the 2019 Nations League.

Image result for drawing of a runner tripping over a hurdle

Herdman at 2020 World Cup qualifying.

With a track record like John's, how can anyone seriously expect Herdman to be anything other than an total embarrassment when Canada co-hosts the 2026 World Cup! Get rid of the bum. Now!!!

You've put a bunch of pictures of a cartoon tripping on a hurdle. That's a pretty compelling track record you are displaying.

Let's play a game. Which coach of the CMNT was in charge while the team set the following current records.

Most goals in a game.
Largest margin of victory.
Most goals in a home game.
Most goals in a Gold Cup game.
Largest margin of victory in a Gold Cup game.
Most goals in a Gold Cup tournament.
First ever teammates to score a hat-trick in the same Gold Cup game (for any country)

That's 7 records in 9 games coached.

And to boot, tied for the best Gold Cup finish for Canada in the last 12 years. Maybe it's not as huge a catastrophe as some people are making it out to be.

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A coach is only as good as his last game/tournament! In John's case, he hasn't done anything good with the CMNT. Victories against minnow don't mean squat. Mexico = failure; Haiti = failure; Gold Cup = failure; Predictions = failure. I guess we need a few more failures  in the Nations League to convince all the "not yetters." And an elimination during qualifying for the 2022 World Cup before the "No voters" will be convinced.

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Posted (edited)
7 minutes ago, Kent said:

You've put a bunch of pictures of a cartoon tripping on a hurdle. That's a pretty compelling track record you are displaying.

Let's play a game. Which coach of the CMNT was in charge while the team set the following current records.

Most goals in a game.
Largest margin of victory.
Most goals in a home game.
Most goals in a Gold Cup game.
Largest margin of victory in a Gold Cup game.
Most goals in a Gold Cup tournament.
First ever teammates to score a hat-trick in the same Gold Cup game (for any country)

That's 7 records in 9 games coached.

And to boot, tied for the best Gold Cup finish for Canada in the last 12 years. Maybe it's not as huge a catastrophe as some people are making it out to be.

Yeah, so what! That's about as exciting as watching Rapinoe have an orgasm on the field because she scored the ninth goal against Thailand. Whoopee ****. (My apologies. I should have said Whoopee poop!)

Edited by Binky

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Just now, Kent said:

I tried to confirm (half-assed) what position MAK played in the 2017 Gold Cup. I feel like he played fullback, but I'm not totally certain. If he did, anyone saying OZ was great and Herdman was **** cause he played people out of position maybe need to rethink things. Especially since the other out of position player seems to be Davies, who has played quite a bit of LB in his career, and some people were even asking for it in the lead up to the Haiti game because the thinking was he could deal with Haiti's speed.

Nobody at the time claimed that playing Kaye at LB was a masterstroke from OZ. It was a good move to shoehorn a promising USL player with potential into LB - nothing more, nothing less.

2019 Kaye is realizing that potential. Criticism of Herdman playing him at LB is now fair game. 

10 minutes ago, Kent said:

Anyone saying OZ was great and Herdman made questionable calls on who should start the games should maybe remember the controversy about our slow CB's that were picked to play against Jamaica in 2017. Herdman isn't alone in being second guessed on who was starting in the games we got eliminated in.

Herdman deserves credit for how he's handled the CB situation. Nobody seems to be criticizing him for that. 

To be fair to OZ, he never had Cornelius or Hutchinson or Henry, but he can be blamed for not playing James in that match, at least.

14 minutes ago, Kent said:

Anyone saying OZ was fired too early (I agree) and also Herdman should be held to the same standard (i.e. should also be fired too early) should maybe think that through as well. If it was a mistake to fire OZ because of one loss, then why wouldn't it be another mistake to do the same to Herdman? Especially when there is so much less time to find a replacement and get up and running before Nations League and/or WCQ.

Summary of my opinion. Herdman made some mistakes in the quarter-final game. OZ was fired too early. Herdman should be given more time.

Agreed. Baring some absolute meltdown, like getting relegated to league B, Herdman should be retained for this cycle. 

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Posted (edited)
13 minutes ago, Binky said:

A coach is only as good as his last game/tournament! In John's case, he hasn't done anything good with the CMNT. Victories against minnow don't mean squat. Mexico = failure; Haiti = failure; Gold Cup = failure; Predictions = failure. I guess we need a few more failures  in the Nations League to convince all the "not yetters." And an elimination during qualifying for the 2022 World Cup before the "No voters" will be convinced.

I'll throw myself in this category. Nations League starts in a few months. Let's see what happens. Last chance salon perhaps, but let's give him that at the bare minimum. 

If Herdman is as bad as some claim, we'll find a way to get relegated and you will be vindicated. He must be fired at that point, we would all agree.

If we advance to the Final round, that will be a success and shut the haters up. Nobody can say fire him if we advance over the USA, regardless on how we do thereafter. 

Finishing 2nd will not result in firing Herdman or extreme praise for Herdman.

Edited by Obinna

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6 hours ago, MtlMario said:

I think JH has to win all 4 games in Nations League to prove we are going in the right direction. 2 wins vs Cuba and a win(or tie) and a loss vs USA won't prove much. It's pretty much what's expected.

Doing what is expected does not constitute failure though, does it? Sometimes it even constitutes success. When Mexico are expected to qualify for the World Cup, is it not still a successful campaign when they qualify?

It takes time to move things forward. Not getting relegated in CNL will be fine for me. Any result (win or draw) against the USA will definitely be success for me.

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I know how difficult coaching and managing a roster of 23 players and personalities can be...

Here is my fair criticism: 

Pros - There is no denying that he installed some strong team unity and belief in the players.  We have one of, if not our strongest pool of athletes ever. In my eyes, he does have us playing attacking football. Yes, part of that is we have some beautiful attacking talent but for the most part, from an attacking tactical perspective he has been lining us up right. 

*Post match I was concerned about he might lose the dressing room after that game. However, our men are professionals. True professionals would just want it that much more now. I'm confident the players will all be committed to CNL, especially with it having WCQ implications. The players believe they can qualify for WCQ, as they should, I'd rather they believe instead of hope.

Cons: 

My only really con was his display of tactics in the 2nd half. I felt bringing on a not 100% Kaye for Oso and temporary shifting us to 4-1-4-1, was the wrong decision. I wasn't 100% I saw this but @El Diego also saw the same as me Re his article. This opened up our LB/RB big time not only to diaganol crosses but also left them exposed 2v1 when Haiti would overload one of the flanks. 

I personally would not even be 100% against us playing a 4-1-4-1 , I think he might have actually over thought it. For me alot of that comes down to lack of friendlies and games with each other, as each position requires more responsibility in that formation. 

I'm by no means a world class professional coach but since we looked so good in 4-3-3 I don't know why we didn't keep it simple and shift to a 4-4-2 to close it out. Bring in some physical strength and help limit the full back exposure (Mak for Oso, Hoilett for Piette Here: 

               Cav         David

    Arfield  Hutch  Piette   Kaye

Davies  Cornelius Henry Godinho

You still have one more sub left for a midfielder or a forward. I get everyone is a pro manager post game, but that 2nd half was very disappointing from the subs, tactics and formations. 

 

I do know that Herdman is going to analyze that 2nd half like crazy, so at this point all I can do is I hope he learns from it. Great managers never stop learning. 

Under 30% are calling for his head, I always said I'd give him until after Nations League for my opinion. I'm fairly certain the CSA will keep him at least this cycle, so end of day our opinions are a moot point.  I could even see Herdman seeking out an additional very strong assistant coach at some point, a low key guy who is a tactical expert. Herdman wants to win just as much as we all do, let's see what happens and what he does moving forward. 

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Posted (edited)
9 hours ago, ted said:

Opinions are like ********, everyone has one.

We lost a quarterfinal game in the Gold Cup by one goal. We didn't **** the bed, and Herdman needs to learn and grow just as the team does. Just as any team does. 

britney spears GIF

See  mentality like that is just absolutely crazy !  This is the senior national team ! Players and managers should be ready to go, not oh Johnny boy needs to learn and grow ! If little Johnny needs to grow well he can go to a  Club academy or a lower division and he can grow there ! Again  this is the senior national team for Canada !!  That should be competing  at the highest level of competition,  not some training ground for managers who have no idea what they’re doing !  Just imagine if Little Johnny said and did the exact same things if he was managing England or a true football nation and lost to lower ranked team ! Omg he would  be probably arrested ( joke) 

Edited by SpecialK

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Kent said:

You've put a bunch of pictures of a cartoon tripping on a hurdle. That's a pretty compelling track record you are displaying.

Let's play a game. Which coach of the CMNT was in charge while the team set the following current records.

Most goals in a game.
Largest margin of victory.
Most goals in a home game.
Most goals in a Gold Cup game.
Largest margin of victory in a Gold Cup game.
Most goals in a Gold Cup tournament.
First ever teammates to score a hat-trick in the same Gold Cup game (for any country)

That's 7 records in 9 games coached.

And to boot, tied for the best Gold Cup finish for Canada in the last 12 years. Maybe it's not as huge a catastrophe as some people are making it out to be.

9 games against who?? Shop keepers and semi pro players !!! Oh please Those records mean nothing when your playing against teams that have no business being there ! I’m sorry for those teams but it’s the truth. That’s  the sad position CONCACAF is in 

 

Edited by SpecialK

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Posted (edited)
32 minutes ago, to70 said:

 The consencus there that Canada has a good young team, but needs a real coach.

This. It's so visibly simple. 

I think Herdman is a great guy. His gift of the gab should be only used in his directors role but!!... 

He's out of his league. 

We went from having a losing mediocre but capable squad, hiring experienced managers with Googlable CVs.... to our best squad ever, elite talent and high expectations, with an inexperienced manager whos CV consists of failed woman's teams. 

Edited by Shway

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For those that said No....at 1 Milly a year if that # is correct. Hard not to think who we could have got with that $ budget (from a coaching CV perspective).

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