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The Road to Qatar.

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9 hours ago, adrenaline11 said:

This wasn't a problem until CONCACAF decided to use the FIFA rankings instead of the CONCACAF rankings.

 

Yeah the CSA is frugal because THEY HAVE NO MONEY! Did you know that at the end of 2017 the CSA had just $2.3 mil in cash on hand? Read it. It's in their 2017 Financial Statement.

 

That was in a year when nothing was going on. What money they had for this year went into preparing the women for the WWC. Next year, they'll be even more stretched with men's and women's Olympic qualifying.

 

Yet somehow, they're supposed to find money to (presumably) set up a training camp in Florida in January and play two friendlies. And not just that, after the WCQ schedule is announced, they have accept making less money so as to "reward" Halifax/Calgary/Winnipeg with a game.

 

I'm sorry, not just one game. Maybe two. Or three.

 

Give me a break.

Somehow within these budget constraints you mention the CSA found enough cash to fire a manager under contract and award Herdman with a large contract if sources are correct, I will argue that Herdman has a lot to do with us now being in this mess!

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10 hours ago, adrenaline11 said:

This wasn't a problem until CONCACAF decided to use the FIFA rankings instead of the CONCACAF rankings.

 

Yeah the CSA is frugal because THEY HAVE NO MONEY! Did you know that at the end of 2017 the CSA had just $2.3 mil in cash on hand? Read it. It's in their 2017 Financial Statement.

 

That was in a year when nothing was going on. What money they had for this year went into preparing the women for the WWC. Next year, they'll be even more stretched with men's and women's Olympic qualifying.

 

Yet somehow, they're supposed to find money to (presumably) set up a training camp in Florida in January and play two friendlies. And not just that, after the WCQ schedule is announced, they have accept making less money so as to "reward" Halifax/Calgary/Winnipeg with a game.

 

I'm sorry, not just one game. Maybe two. Or three.

 

Give me a break.

How can every other country afford to do friendlies except us? El Salvador can do European friendlies, but we can't. This is a rhetorical  question, but how mismanaged our we that we can't find money for friendlies, but the rest of the world can?

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9 hours ago, adrenaline11 said:

This wasn't a problem until CONCACAF decided to use the FIFA rankings instead of the CONCACAF rankings.

 

Yeah the CSA is frugal because THEY HAVE NO MONEY! Did you know that at the end of 2017 the CSA had just $2.3 mil in cash on hand? Read it. It's in their 2017 Financial Statement.

 

That was in a year when nothing was going on. What money they had for this year went into preparing the women for the WWC. Next year, they'll be even more stretched with men's and women's Olympic qualifying.

 

Yet somehow, they're supposed to find money to (presumably) set up a training camp in Florida in January and play two friendlies. And not just that, after the WCQ schedule is announced, they have accept making less money so as to "reward" Halifax/Calgary/Winnipeg with a game.

 

I'm sorry, not just one game. Maybe two. Or three.

 

Give me a break.

How come other countries in our region find a way to make it happen, but not Canada?

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31 minutes ago, Obinna said:

How come other countries in our region find a way to make it happen, but not Canada?

Geography, economics and lack of obligation to fund a women's program.

 

If every province had it's own national team and we were supporters of the Manitoba national team, of course we'd see our team play every window. It's so much cheaper to fly to/from Nova Scotia or BC than it is to fly to/from Grenada. On top of that, you must pay the visiting country a fee. Both of these factors make it harder for us to both invite teams to come over or to be invited to go over.

 

It helps that countries like El Salvador have a large expat community in the US. They've played Guatemala, Peru, Brazil, and Honduras in the US and that's just in the past two years. Why? Because promoters see that the expats will show up and so they pay El Salvador a fee to play all these neutral site friendlies. That alone makes scheduling much easier and more lucrative for them than it is for us.

 

In the very document I linked, it states that the CSA spent $5.8 mil on our senior teams in 2017. The 2018 Annual report, the most recent one I could find with a men's vs women's spending comparison, indicates that we spend slightly more on our women than our men - and this was a non World Cup/Olympic year. I wonder how people would react if we spent more on our men than our women next year. I wonder how the general public would react if we didn't fund a women's program outside of WWC/Olympic qualifiers like so many nations in CONCACAF do.

Edited by adrenaline11

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2 hours ago, Obinna said:

How come other countries in our region find a way to make it happen, but not Canada?

Too add to what @adrenaline11 nicely stated, we also don't have a large enough fanbase in Canada that is willing to spend $100+ for a friendly to make it a money-making opportunity for third parties to get involved. Everyone wants matches in their city but then complain when ticket prices are even $50.

Until the CPL, we didn't have a pool of local players to play against a pool of local players from Jamaica, ES, CR etc.. in non-FIFA windows.

As seen with the Nations League, many of these matches are held in environments that wouldn't be considered acceptable for the CMNT to play in - which means costs are higher for us to stage matches.

 

Edited by red card

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13 hours ago, adrenaline11 said:

This wasn't a problem until CONCACAF decided to use the FIFA rankings instead of the CONCACAF rankings.

Yup, the idea that a Confederation would do this is appalling. What's the point of running your own competitions if they mean nothing in determining the best teams in the Confederation?

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5 hours ago, dyslexic nam said:

So, setting aside the money issue (you know, cuz, no biggie...), what would a solid NA-based side look like if we were to pursue CONCACAF friendlies that were economical and didn't threaten the club positions of our European players (or just generally annoy their clubs)?

K - Crepeau, Carducci

CB - Henry, Cornelius, Zator, Didic, Jakovic?

RB - Laryea, ZBG

LB - Miller, (Kaye)

Centre Mids (def and attacking) - Eustaquio, Piette, Kaye, Oso, Chapman, Teibert

Wings - Tesho, Tabla, (Oso), Borges

Forwards - Cav, AJH, Ricketts

I know I am missing some, and it is possible that some of these guys might not be up for a minnow tour, but a team like that has to be good enough to get points against a lot of lower CONCACAF teams.  No idea if the Liga MX guys would want to be part of this, but i could see Eustaquio wanting to get some game time and wanting to integrate with the Nats. 

If the hex is the best path to WC 2022, it would be interesting to know the most economical way to squeeze in some friendlies.

  • For players out of season, do the games have to fall within international windows to get points or is that just a mechanism to ensure players are released?
  • Would it be cheaper to play a series of traveling away games (winter games would need to be away), or pay to fly visiting teams in  and get some limited gate revenue?
  • Basically, is it possible to do a thrift store version of some friendlies in a way that the CSA could afford and could get behind?

You are hired! Thanks for this post. When I first posted a CONCACAF minnows tour of Canadian all-star CPL players I was essentially joking. 

The vision is becoming more clear. Haha

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I think the strategy should be clear. Play a million games against whoever between now and next June. As far as Concacaf I'm looking at Nicaragua and TT. I don't care the cost, the money from all things will be made back and more if theyre in the HEX

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3 hours ago, adrenaline11 said:

Geography, economics and lack of obligation to fund a women's program.

 

If every province had it's own national team and we were supporters of the Manitoba national team, of course we'd see our team play every window. It's so much cheaper to fly to/from Nova Scotia or BC than it is to fly to/from Grenada. On top of that, you must pay the visiting country a fee. Both of these factors make it harder for us to both invite teams to come over or to be invited to go over.

 

It helps that countries like El Salvador have a large expat community in the US. They've played Guatemala, Peru, Brazil, and Honduras in the US and that's just in the past two years. Why? Because promoters see that the expats will show up and so they pay El Salvador a fee to play all these neutral site friendlies. That alone makes scheduling much easier and more lucrative for them than it is for us.

 

In the very document I linked, it states that the CSA spent $5.8 mil on our senior teams in 2017. The 2018 Annual report, the most recent one I could find with a men's vs women's spending comparison, indicates that we spend slightly more on our women than our men - and this was a non World Cup/Olympic year. I wonder how people would react if we spent more on our men than our women next year. I wonder how the general public would react if we didn't fund a women's program outside of WWC/Olympic qualifiers like so many nations in CONCACAF do.

Australia has a similar economy and challenge with geography. They also have a well-funded women's program.

Why have they figured it out, but Canada hasn't?

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4 hours ago, Stryker911 said:

How can every other country afford to do friendlies except us? El Salvador can do European friendlies, but we can't. This is a rhetorical  question, but how mismanaged our we that we can't find money for friendlies, but the rest of the world can?

Because we spend equally on our MNT and WNT programs unlike many other nations.

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39 minutes ago, Obinna said:

Australia has a similar economy and challenge with geography. They also have a well-funded women's program.

Why have they figured it out, but Canada hasn't?

I would argue they generate much more revenue than we do.

Culturally sport is much more important in Australia, one of the reasons they continually punch above their weight at the Olympics. By extension I bet they generate more revenue through more streams. 

Also, where their NT programs are situated in the sporting landscape probably offers more opportunity for related revenue, Canada's NT programs are a small grain of sand in the larger sandbox. I suspect that's not the case in Australia.

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I am not sure playing a bunch of games outside the windows, against the teams that will actually play us, is all that cost effective in terms of points.  The number of 1.5/2 point games (teams that we can guarantee beating even without some of our better players) needed to make a difference is going to greatly stretch the good will of players, club and possibly supporters.  

4 friendlies against teams an average of 100 points above of us in the windows would equal about 24 points.  We could probably could get ever more risky. Strategically picking those teams might actual get some casual fans interested and it would be easier to get everyone motivated.

 

El Salvador are making big plans which could very well back-fire, we need to smartly keep pressure on them to go through with them. 

Edited by WestHamCanadianinOxford

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1 hour ago, BuzzAndSting said:

I would argue they generate much more revenue than we do.

Culturally sport is much more important in Australia, one of the reasons they continually punch above their weight at the Olympics. By extension I bet they generate more revenue through more streams. 

Also, where their NT programs are situated in the sporting landscape probably offers more opportunity for related revenue, Canada's NT programs are a small grain of sand in the larger sandbox. I suspect that's not the case in Australia.

Interesting theory. I would like to see their financial statements, to see if it holds any weight.

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2 hours ago, ted said:

Yup, the idea that a Confederation would do this is appalling. What's the point of running your own competitions if they mean nothing in determining the best teams in the Confederation?

Can someone help me out with this?  How long has it been a FIFA statute that you must you FIFA rankings in World Cup Qualifying?  If this has been around forever than the blame lies with Vic for leading the CSA down the garden path.  Somebody at Concacaf or the CSA for that matter should have known what rankings needed to be used.  If Vic changed it to Concacaf rankings to benefit Canada then in effect he royally screwed us.  But you think someone at FIFA or in Concacaf would have immediately said you can’t do that when it was announced.  It sort of like knowing that you can’t circumvent the back pass to the goalie rule, most soccer people were aware.  

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6 minutes ago, Club Linesman said:

Can someone help me out with this?  How long has it been a FIFA statute that you must you FIFA rankings in World Cup Qualifying?  If this has been around forever than the blame lies with Vic for leading the CSA down the garden path.  Somebody at Concacaf or the CSA for that matter should have known what rankings needed to be used.  If Vic changed it to Concacaf rankings to benefit Canada then in effect he royally screwed us.  But you think someone at FIFA or in Concacaf would have immediately said you can’t do that when it was announced.  It sort of like knowing that you can’t circumvent the back pass to the goalie rule, most soccer people were aware.  

I'd say since 2010 World Cup?  In 2006, it was possible to get a better ranking because of geography, but ever since then, it's always been about FIFA rankings.

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1 hour ago, WestHamCanadianinOxford said:

I am not sure playing a bunch of games outside the windows, against the teams that will actually play us, is all that cost effective in terms of points.  The number of 1.5/2 point games (teams that we can guarantee beating even without some of our better players) needed to make a difference is going to greatly stretch the good will of players, club and possibly supporters.  

That is why I am actually serious about a B Team tour of the Caribbean.  No club ill will because the clubs in question are not in season. We would leave the Euro guys across the pond and let them keep performing for their teams.  

No supporter ill will because we would be playing away (or potentially in markets that don’t normally get to see the CMNT in any form if we get some home games).  Televise or not - but the intent of this isn’t to engage the fans. It is a very utilitarian mission to make the hex.

And no player ill will because the B team would be mostly made up of players that would probably want the chance to play - or at least you could structure it that way.  You would have to be careful not to water the talent down too much but I am sure you could find a respectable squad of guys willing to do it that would be capable of taking down some lower tier national teams.   

 

It might not catch ES, but it would put us in a great spot I’f they stumbled.  And it wouldn’t have to preclude the idea of rolling the dice with our A team at some point if, for example, ES wanted to rumble. 

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13 minutes ago, dyslexic nam said:

That is why I am actually serious about a B Team tour of the Caribbean.  No club ill will because the clubs in question are not in season. We would leave the Euro guys across the pond and let them keep performing for their teams.  

No supporter ill will because we would be playing away (or potentially in markets that don’t normally get to see the CMNT in any form if we get some home games).  Televise or not - but the intent of this isn’t to engage the fans. It is a very utilitarian mission to make the hex.

And no player ill will because the B team would be mostly made up of players that would probably want the chance to play - or at least you could structure it that way.  You would have to be careful not to water the talent down too much but I am sure you could find a respectable squad of guys willing to do it that would be capable of taking down some lower tier national teams.   

 

It might not catch ES, but it would put us in a great spot I’f they stumbled.  And it wouldn’t have to preclude the idea of rolling the dice with our A team at some point if, for example, ES wanted to rumble. 

I really like this. We could even use it as prep for the U-23 team. Call U-23 players for the senior team and play some minnows in Janurary and February.

- Olympic Team gets prep

- Senior team (hopefully) gets a few FIFA points

- Senior teams caps some CPL players and builds depth

If we want to get fancy in an attempt to save money, we could also call the bulk of players from a given CPL team, as to cut down on travel

I wonder if the CSA could save money, for example, by having a winter camp on Vancouver Island? Cold and wet, but it's playable weather. Cheaper than Florida due to weak Canadian dollar. Majority of the squad can be Pacific players and you can sprinkle in some Whitecap players as the travel would be very cheap.

Then play a very winnable game on the Island if that is cheaper than playing away.

Edited by Obinna

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2 minutes ago, Obinna said:

I really like this. We could even use it as prep for the U-23 team. Call U-23 players for the senior team and play some minnows in Janurary and February.

- Olympic Team gets prep

- Senior team (hopefully) gets a few FIFA points

- Senior teams caps some CPL players and builds depth

They could even rent a small cruise ship, players could travel around the region on it, and supporters would get to book a 2 week cruise to support the team and offset the team’s travel costs. 

Okay, maybe that is a bit too much...

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5 minutes ago, dyslexic nam said:

They could even rent a small cruise ship, players could travel around the region on it, and supporters would get to book a 2 week cruise to support the team and offset the team’s travel costs. 

Okay, maybe that is a bit too much...

Desperate times call for desperate measures 😄

Edited by Obinna

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26 minutes ago, dyslexic nam said:

That is why I am actually serious about a B Team tour of the Caribbean.  No club ill will because the clubs in question are not in season. We would leave the Euro guys across the pond and let them keep performing for their teams.  

No supporter ill will because we would be playing away (or potentially in markets that don’t normally get to see the CMNT in any form if we get some home games).  Televise or not - but the intent of this isn’t to engage the fans. It is a very utilitarian mission to make the hex.

And no player ill will because the B team would be mostly made up of players that would probably want the chance to play - or at least you could structure it that way.  You would have to be careful not to water the talent down too much but I am sure you could find a respectable squad of guys willing to do it that would be capable of taking down some lower tier national teams.   

 

It might not catch ES, but it would put us in a great spot I’f they stumbled.  And it wouldn’t have to preclude the idea of rolling the dice with our A team at some point if, for example, ES wanted to rumble. 

If you are talking nations that small, you are looking at 10 games to just make up the current difference (1.5  point range).  Unless you are taking unattached guys, the clubs are going care about a schedule with more game time than a World or Gold Cup even in the close season.  And unless you run them like dogs, it is probably a couple months.   

I like the spirit of it, but the numbers are not practical to me. 

Edit: I guess I would just concentrate on 4 boom and bust moments of glory.  

Edited by WestHamCanadianinOxford

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1 hour ago, dyslexic nam said:

They could even rent a small cruise ship, players could travel around the region on it, and supporters would get to book a 2 week cruise to support the team and offset the team’s travel costs. 

Okay, maybe that is a bit too much...

I am in a band and our sole goal is to get a gig being the house band on a cruise ship, this could work out!🌴

Edited by gator

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2 hours ago, Obinna said:

Interesting theory. I would like to see their financial statements, to see if it holds any weight.

I live here and am heavily involved in grassroots football as a player, administrator, and referee. I can attest to the veracity of those comments without looking at the financial statements. Australia is light years ahead of us in almost every aspect of football culture and infrastructure.

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3 hours ago, Obinna said:

Interesting theory. I would like to see their financial statements, to see if it holds any weight.

@BuzzAndSting covered it but I'll add the hard numbers. You can find the Football Federation of Australia's financial statements here. I've done a comparison of the 2016 and 2017 numbers as the CSA hasn't released a statement for 2018 yet.

uP7mC4q.png

Note: The currency exchange rate used was $1 AUS = $0.9 CAD

 

The way that the numbers are added up might be a little bit different but even considering that, the difference in numbers is staggering. The FFA is making 3.5-4.5x what the CSA is bringing in and spending 4x as much.

Edited by adrenaline11

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16 hours ago, Obinna said:

Interesting theory. I would like to see their financial statements, to see if it holds any weight.

Here you go. 2018 FS for the FFA and 2017 FS for the CSA. The FFA had an operating revenue for 2018 of $132 416 000 AUD or about $120 045 697 CAD. The CSA had an operating revenue of $20 576 204 for 2017. I could have chosen the 2017 FS for the FFA but their FY runs July to June and the CSA FY runs January to December. Even if you look at the 2017 FS for the FFA the operating revenue is still over $100M CAD.

https://www.ffa.com.au/sites/ffa/files/2018-12/FFA FY2018 Statutory Accounts FINAL.pdf

https://www.canadasoccer.com/files/CSA_Financial_Statements_2017.pdf

Edit: thanks to @adrenaline11 for doing the math!

Edited by BuzzAndSting

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26 minutes ago, BuzzAndSting said:

Here you go. 2018 FS for the FFA and 2017 FS for the CSA. The FFA had an operating revenue for 2018 of $132 416 000 AUD or about $120 045 697 CAD. The CSA had an operating revenue of $20 576 204 for 2017. I could have chosen the 2017 FS for the FFA but their FY runs July to June and the CSA FY runs January to December. Even if you look at the 2017 FS for the FFA the operating revenue is still over $100M CAD.

https://www.ffa.com.au/sites/ffa/files/2018-12/FFA FY2018 Statutory Accounts FINAL.pdf

https://www.canadasoccer.com/files/CSA_Financial_Statements_2017.pdf

Edit: thanks to @adrenaline11 for doing the math!

Thanks!

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