The Road to Qatar.

[VinceA]

If Oso starts he's the captain I imagine. Otherwise it's Borjan.

[narduch]

Osorio not in TFC's line up today.

[red card]

Mexico beat Iceland 2-1 yesterday in a Nations League warmup in Arlington, Texas. Looked like at least 50% attendance.

Iceland largely sat back but looked dangerous on the counter. They scored first on a deflected goal. 

Mexico played with a older lineup and only 3 Euro-based players. Their best may have been Diego Lainez, who wasn't selected for Nations League. But just announced today, he's replacing the injured Erick Gutierrez. 

Mexico scored their 2 after subbing in Hector Herrera, Hirving Lozano, Nestor Araujo, and Gerardo Arteaga. Then we saw Mexico run around Iceland like they have done many times with Canada with quick passing & running in tight spaces. Napoli's Lozano scored both. 

Match was stopped in 60th minute for their infamous chant. This is something they'll need to control for WCQ as new FIFA 3 strike rule means refs will need to dole out some punishment including Mexico forfeiting the match.

 

 

Edited May 30, 2021 by red card

[apbsmith]

Fearless Prediction: 

Gold Cup 2021 we will beat USA and win our group. 

Mexico will get a match forfeit in the round robin and finish 2nd in group. 

We will play Mexico in Semis of gold Cup as 1st seed vs 2nd seed. 

Aside- the only way that infamous chant of stopping is if they get the forfeit in an actual World Cup Qualifying match. However, no matter how and when Mexico gets a match forfeit(if they do) it's unfair for every other team in a group as Mexico is #1 in our region. 

 

[Obinna]

You can't make Mexico forfeit a match for what's yelled from the stands.

You can make them play in an empty stadium, if you feel that us necessary.

[Stryker911]

Has anyone seen Haitis team? I have found updates on their Facebook page on whonis training, but can't find the complete roster.

[Olympique_de_Marseille]

5 minutes ago, Stryker911 said:

Has anyone seen Haitis team? I have found updates on their Facebook page on whonis training, but can't find the complete roster.

@Stryker911 :

On 5/26/2021 at 2:39 PM, narduch said:

This is Haiti's squad:

Gardiens : Johnny Placide (Tsarsko Selo / Bulgarie), Josué Duverger (Vitoria Setubal / Portugal) et Andy Bordenave (Real Hope FA)

Défenseurs : Stéphane Lambèse (US Orléans / France), Wilde-Donald Guerrier (Apollon Limassol/ Chypre), Alex Christian Jr (Atyrau FK/ Kazakhstan), Jems Geffrard (Wanderers d’Halifax / Canada), Ricardo Adé (Mushuc Runa / Équateur), Carlens Arcus (AJ Auxerre/ France) et Mechack Jérôme (El Paso Locomotive / USA)

Mileux (7): Soni Mustivar (Nea Salamina Famagusta, Chypre), Bicou Bissainthe (Real Hope FA), Kevin Lafrance (AEK Larnaca, Chypre), Bryan Alcéus (Gaz Metan Médias, Roumanie), Leverton Pierre (USL Dunkerque, France), Simonsen Jeppe (SønderjyskE, Danemark), Mikaël Cantal (Espagne)

Attaquants (6): Duckens Nazon (STVV, Belgique), Frantzdy Pierrot (EA Guingamp, France), Don Deedson Louicius (IK Hobro, Danemark), Hervé Bazile (Le Havre, France), Carnejy Antoine (US Orléans, France), Derrick Etienne (Columbus Crew, USA).

https://www.gazettehaiti.com/node/3577

 

On 5/26/2021 at 3:17 PM, Olympique_de_Marseille said:

Actually, the coach held a press conference earlier today, it look like there may be an update:

https://haititempo.com/foot-selection-plusieurs-changements-effectues-dans-le-groupe/

On paper, not as good as Suriname.

Edited May 30, 2021 by Olympique_de_Marseille

[sebdeserio]

33 minutes ago, Obinna said:

You can't make Mexico forfeit a match for what's yelled from the stands.

You can make them play in an empty stadium, if you feel that us necessary.

That punishes Mexico's opponents as well though.

[ADP10]

25 minutes ago, Olympique_de_Marseille said:

@Stryker911 :

 

On paper, not as good as Suriname.

weird that they didn’t call up etienne

[TGAA_Star]

35 minutes ago, Olympique_de_Marseille said:

@Stryker911 :

 

On paper, not as good as Suriname.

Seeing Haiti's team...yeah their team may not be as good as Suriname but they did beat us 2 years ago in GC 2019 🇭🇹 

But we have gotten better since then but I don't know if Haiti has.

Either way I can't wait to find out.

[SpursFlu]

If someone is being an idiot isn't the best punishment allowing them to live their life as an idiot? Whats with the obsession with controlling people? How does anyone's life change by what a bunch of drunk Mexicans are screaming at soccer game. Let them sort themselves or if they dont want just let them be goons

Edited May 30, 2021 by SpursFlu

[Obinna]

29 minutes ago, sebdeserio said:

That punishes Mexico's opponents as well though.

Agreed. It's not ideal.

I get the desire to do something about the chants, but taking away points for what amounts to a non-sporting reason is beyond ridiculous and not viable whatsoever. The players have no control over what the fans do. 

I don't have the answer, I just know that's not it.

[apbsmith]

2 hours ago, Obinna said:

You can't make Mexico forfeit a match for what's yelled from the stands.

You can make them play in an empty stadium, if you feel that us necessary.

I completely agree. My understanding is they've been officially warned. However, who knows.

[apbsmith]

1 hour ago, SpursFlu said:

If someone is being an idiot isn't the best punishment allowing them to live their life as an idiot? Whats with the obsession with controlling people? How does anyone's life change by what a bunch of drunk Mexicans are screaming at soccer game. Let them sort themselves or if they dont want just let them be goons

I just don't get why don't you just start removing those specific fans. 

That seems like "the common sense" approach, if you want homophobic chants to stop. I'm asspuming it's prolly more complicated then that. 

[Obinna]

20 minutes ago, apbsmith said:

I just don't get why don't you just start removing those specific fans. 

That seems like "the common sense" approach, if you want homophobic chants to stop. I'm asspuming it's prolly more complicated then that. 

My understanding is the word, for some people, roughly translates to "whore" and that it's not inspired by homophobia. No wonder it's difficult to snuff out a homophobic attitude which doesn't exist. On the other hand, for other people the word does roughly translate to something derogatory towards homosexuals, and whether or not the intent is homophobic in spirit doesn't take away the hurt that offended people feel when they hear it. I don't think much can be done except to ban fans from games and hope the threat of that is enough of a deterrent to change the behavior, but even then I don't think you're accomplishing much beyond pissing people off and emboldening them to chant it even more, not because they are homophobic, but because you are policing a chant from a place of misunderstanding, and that ignorance probably pisses some of the Mexican fans off and makes them want to do it more out of spite.

It's not like the racism in football issue because that is black and white (no pun intended). You are purposely being derogatory for the purpose of being derogatory, but the Mexican chant is far less clear cut. For starters it is a chant whenever the keeper does a goal kick. It is tied into the fabric of the match, it is not a random act of abuse like tossing a banana on the field or making a monkey chant.

Edited May 30, 2021 by Obinna

[red card]

14 minutes ago, Obinna said:

My understanding is the word, for some people, roughly translates to "whore" and that it's not inspired by homophobia. No wonder it's difficult to snuff out a homophobic attitude which doesn't exist. On the other hand, for other people the word does roughly translate to something derogatory towards homosexuals, and whether or not the intent is homophobic in spirit doesn't take away the hurt that offended people feel when they hear it. I don't think much can be done except to ban fans from games and hope the threat of that is enough of a deterrent to change the behavior, but even then I don't think you're accomplishing much beyond pissing people off and emboldening them to chant it even more, not because they are homophobic, but because you are policing a chant from a place of misunderstanding, and that ignorance probably pisses some of the Mexican fans off and makes them want to do it more out of spite.

It's not like the racism in football issue because that is black and white (no pun intended). You are purposely being derogatory for the purpose of being derogatory, but the Mexican chant is far less clear cut. For starters it is a chant whenever the keeper does a goal kick. It is tied into the fabric of the match, it is not a random act of abuse like tossing a banana on the field or making a monkey chant.

This doesn't matter. It has already been decided. FIFA has warned the Mexico Fed about it in 12 previous matches. 

The new FiFA code also now specifically references to homophobia, saying “discrimination of any kind on account of race, skin colour, ethnic, national or social origin ... religion, sexual orientation is strictly prohibited and punishable by suspension or expulsion.”

The question will be if the refs actually follow through as so far, the refs in European club matches haven't done step 1: If the referee detects racism in the stands, it will ask the PA announcer to issue a warning. But having step 1 occur in a friendly last night puts Mexico on notice. Mexican Fed taking baby steps by using Tata to spread the word but without directly being critical of fans who chant it.

 

 

[dyslexic nam]

6 hours ago, Obinna said:

You can't make Mexico forfeit a match for what's yelled from the stands.

You can make them play in an empty stadium, if you feel that us necessary.

For what it’s worth, I disagree.  

A point forfeit doesn’t just punish the players - it punishes the entire federation.  They clearly haven’t taken steps to address the fan behaviour because it has persisted.  And I am not getting into the semantics of it and whether or not it should actually be “a thing”.  It is obviously offensive to a large enough group of people that it has become a significant issue.  I don’t feel like engaging in some “snowflake” debate so that is all I will say on it.    

By punishing the federation, they exert pressure on them to take action with their own fans.  Sure FIFA or CONCACAF could try to step in and ban specific fans from certain games in certain venues - but it would be far batter to have the federation take the issue seriously and deal with it in a way that leads to change. That is the purpose of a points deduction - it impacts everyone: players, fans, administrators, etc.  It forces their hand whether they themselves feel the need to address the issue.  If WC qualification is on the line and Fans know that groups of people  shouting someone ignorant may threaten that qualification, the problem will get resolved fairly quickly.  Otherwise it will persist and we will be having the same conversations 10 years from now when the issue should be long gone. 

[apbsmith]

I'm personally not even against a point forfeiture but unfortunately in this case with Mexico, because Mexico is #1, it negatively effects every other team in the group.  This isn't a bunch of drunk one off fans chirping, it's a national team chant, so I see FIFA's point with multiple warnings over the last 12 months. 

Let's say they start chanting it against Honduras at home in WCQ and BOOM, match forfeit, 3 points for Honduras. In no way is that fair for the other 6 teams in the final round of WC qualifying. 

I don't really have a solution, my fearless prediction is that it happens in the Gold Cup if it continues as an attempt to send a message for WCQ and moving forward, but we will see. 

[lamptern]

The solution could be very simple. All Mexico home games have to be in an empty stadium until the chant is gone.

First chant reported, empty stadium next match; 

Second chant reported, empty stadium next three matches;

Third chant reported, empty stadium for the whole tournament ;

Forth chant reported,  empty stadium for whole year.....

 

Edited May 31, 2021 by lamptern

[lamptern]

7 minutes ago, lamptern said:

The solution could be very simple. All Mexico home games have to be in an empty stadium until the chant is gone.

First chant reported, empty stadium next match; 

Second chant reported, empty stadium next three matches;

Third chant reported, empty stadium for the whole tournament ;

Forth chant reported,  empty stadium for whole year.....

The solutions are always more than obstacles. 

It's all about the attitude in this case. Firm, the solution is there; soft, numerous warning forever. 

Quote

 

 

Edited May 31, 2021 by lamptern

[Obinna]

6 minutes ago, lamptern said:

The solution could be very simple. All Mexico home games have to be in an empty stadium until the chant is gone.

This is far more likely. Taking points away destroys the integrity of the competition.

When I think of points reduction I think about Juve and Milan, but that came as a result of those clubs cheating.

That is entirely different than punishing the Mexican players, coaches and federation for something they didn't do. It would be unprecedented and frankly out of bounds.

I would disagree, but you could argue the FMF should be held partly responsible during home games, but what do you do about Mexican fans in the United States? Punish the FMF? They have no jurisdiction there. It would be beyond ludicrous.

Edited May 31, 2021 by Obinna

[jtpc]

Assuming either Haiti or Nicaragua win Group E (which seems most likely), it's nice that they each have 2 matches this window before the two-legged series. If the scheduling had been any different and the eventual Group E winner was to play Saint Lucia this window, they would have had the benefit of only having to play once before June 12th and 15th.

[lamptern]

9 minutes ago, jtpc said:

Assuming either Haiti or Nicaragua win Group E (which seems most likely), it's nice that they each have 2 matches this window before the two-legged series. If the scheduling had been any different and the eventual Group E winner was to play Saint Lucia this window, they would have had the benefit of only having to play once before June 12th and 15th.

Fortunately,  Nicaragua needs to play on Jun 4 and Haiti needs to play Jun 5 in first round . And they will be head to head  fighting on June 8 when we take one Surinam the same day.

A fair schedule in CONCACAF....

Edited May 31, 2021 by lamptern

[Cheeta]

40 minutes ago, Obinna said:

This is far more likely. Taking points away destroys the integrity of the competition.

When I think of points reduction I think about Juve and Milan, but that came as a result of those clubs cheating.

That is entirely different than punishing the Mexican players, coaches and federation for something they didn't do. It would be unprecedented and frankly out of bounds.

I would disagree, but you could argue the FMF should be held partly responsible during home games, but what do you do about Mexican fans in the United States? Punish the FMF? They have no jurisdiction there. It would be beyond ludicrous.

1st, even with my match day guttter-gob I have to say that chant has been allowed to go on for too long.  I'm sure for the vast majority of Mexican fans it feels more playful (I don't know how else to put it) than malicious.   However, it should be retired.  And quite rightfully so.  It belongs in 2021 just about as much as a rotary dial telephone dose.  Or maybe a carburetor?  You get the idea.    

2nd, UEFA/FIFA have tried a lot of different threats over the years to get teams and federations to deal with their "troublesome support" but at the end of the day I believe it's pretty much taken death threats to get some sort of meaningful action from the organizations concerned.  The governing bodies have leared that until they start swinging a sledge hammer, collateral damage be damned, they won't get results.  If that's what works...

3rd, the bolded bit.  Yeah.  Unless certain sections can reasonably be assumed to be guilty and those sections were ticket sales to organizations in partnership with, formal or otherwise, the FMF then it isn't a Mexico issue it's a US issue.  However, the FMF is playing matches in the US to make money.

That being the case the easy answer is FIFA makes Mexico responsible for conduct in US stadiums by its fans in the US.  If that fair?  Debatable.  But I'd call it the cost of doing business.      

[Obinna]

3 hours ago, Cheeta said:

1st, even with my match day guttter-gob I have to say that chant has been allowed to go on for too long.  I'm sure for the vast majority of Mexican fans it feels more playful (I don't know how else to put it) than malicious.   However, it should be retired.  And quite rightfully so.  It belongs in 2021 just about as much as a rotary dial telephone dose.  Or maybe a carburetor?  You get the idea.    

2nd, UEFA/FIFA have tried a lot of different threats over the years to get teams and federations to deal with their "troublesome support" but at the end of the day I believe it's pretty much taken death threats to get some sort of meaningful action from the organizations concerned.  The governing bodies have leared that until they start swinging a sledge hammer, collateral damage be damned, they won't get results.  If that's what works...

3rd, the bolded bit.  Yeah.  Unless certain sections can reasonably be assumed to be guilty and those sections were ticket sales to organizations in partnership with, formal or otherwise, the FMF then it isn't a Mexico issue it's a US issue.  However, the FMF is playing matches in the US to make money.

That being the case the easy answer is FIFA makes Mexico responsible for conduct in US stadiums by its fans in the US.  If that fair?  Debatable.  But I'd call it the cost of doing business.      

That could be a solution if you are talking about the friendlies played in the USA, but what about Gold Cup or a World Cup qualifier? The FMF wouldn't be making money off ticket sales in those cases, tickets would be sold by the CONCACAF and the USSF respectively. The offenders may even be American citizens of Mexican descent, but being Americans buying tickets in America under the eye of the USSF, perhaps that federation should be to blame, if we are looking to hold federations responsible.

Not defending the Mexicans by the way, just playing devil's advocate. I would like them to just change the word and keep the chant so we can all move on.

Clearly FIFA and others are stuck on the word, so just remove that word and get on with it.

The other thing people don't seem to want to acknowledge is how this chant is not actually discriminating against players for their sexual orientation. That makes it different from throwing bananas at black players and making monkey noises. You can all see the difference, right?

I am not trying to make it a pissing contest in victimhood, but I am showing the difference to make the point there is no discrimination taking place, so would this even fall under the new code from FIFA that @redcard shared? 

It feels as though the chant was awkwardly swept up in FIFA's effort to stomp out discrimination, but in reality we are dealing with some fans using language that makes other fans feel uncomfortable, unhappy or unsafe, which isn't okay. FIFA need to evaluate the problem accurately if they want to properly deal with it. As I see it, they would have to tweak the wording in that code to actually make it more concretely applicable to the chant issue.

That's my two cents, for what it's worth.

Edited May 31, 2021 by Obinna