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Binky

The Road to Qatar.

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Posted (edited)

ELO World Rankings link is working again!

https://eloratings.net/CONCACAF

CONCACAF:

1. Mexico - 1886

2. USA - 1739

3. Costa Rica - 1685

4. Haiti - 1590

5. Hondurass - 1586

6. Canada - 1576

7. Jamaica - 1572

Makes a lot more sense than the FIFA rankings and there is lots of opportunity for teams to climb if they do well.

Edited by Lofty

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Great! That makes it even more convoluted. Why would Victor Montagliani use the FIFA rankings, as that is the only one that does not have Canada in the top six? Is he being typically Canadian polite? Better yet, why doesn't he use the Voyageurs ranking, in which case Canada would knock Mexico off of its perch.

FIFA:

1 Mexico  - 1,557

2 United States  - 1,495

3 Costa Rica  - 1,453

4 Jamaica  - 1,397

5 Honduras  - 1,368

6 El Salvador  - 1,342

CONCACAF:

1 Mexico  - 2,009

2 United States  - 1,879

3 Costa Rica  - 1,776

4 Honduras  - 1,641

5 Panama  - 1,558

6 Canada  - 1,502

ELO:

1 Mexico  - 1886

2 United States  - 1739

3 Costa Rica  - 1685

4 Haiti   - 1590

5 Hondurass   - 1586

6 Canada  - 1576

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The 3 rankings above agree on the top 3 places in CONCACAF.

1 Mexico

2 United States

3 Costa Rica

So why not have the remaining 32 countries compete in two rounds of qualifiers to end up with 3 additional countries for the HEX?

First round: 4 groups of five countries, and 2 groups of 6 countries, playing home and away matches. The 6 group winners advancing to the second round.

Second round: Either 1 group of 6 countries playing home and away matches with the top 3 countries advancing to play Mexico, the United States and Costa Rica in the Hex. Or having 3 pairings playing home and away matches, with the 3 winners advancing to play Mexico, the United States and Costa Rica in the Hex.

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2 hours ago, Binky said:

The 3 rankings above agree on the top 3 places in CONCACAF.

1 Mexico

2 United States

3 Costa Rica

So why not have the remaining 32 countries compete in two rounds of qualifiers to end up with 3 additional countries for the HEX?

First round: 4 groups of five countries, and 2 groups of 6 countries, playing home and away matches. The 6 group winners advancing to the second round.

Second round: Either 1 group of 6 countries playing home and away matches with the top 3 countries advancing to play Mexico, the United States and Costa Rica in the Hex. Or having 3 pairings playing home and away matches, with the 3 winners advancing to play Mexico, the United States and Costa Rica in the Hex.

Your proposal has 3 rounds that all include 6 team groups. That's 30 matches. I don't think there are enough international dates for that, even if there is no Nations League after the 2019-2020 edition.

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Binky said:

Great! That makes it even more convoluted. Why would Victor Montagliani use the FIFA rankings, as that is the only one that does not have Canada in the top six? Is he being typically Canadian polite? Better yet, why doesn't he use the Voyageurs ranking, in which case Canada would knock Mexico off of its perch.

Because FIFA forces confederations to use the FIFA rankings for any draw at the FIFA World Cup. The date is the only thing the confederation can choose.

Edited by Blackdude

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, Kent said:

Your proposal has 3 rounds that all include 6 team groups. That's 30 matches. I don't think there are enough international dates for that, even if there is no Nations League after the 2019-2020 edition.

Actually, if you read my proposal carefully and with an objective mind, then you will see that there is an option for the second round which you chose to conveniently ignore, or carelessly overlook:

"Second round: Either 1 group of 6 countries playing home and away matches with the top 3 countries advancing to play Mexico, the United States and Costa Rica in the Hex. Or having 3 pairings playing home and away matches, with the 3 winners advancing to play Mexico, the United States and Costa Rica in the Hex."

So yes, you are right, in that the first proposed option for the second round would not work for this World Cup because FIFA chose to dragged its heels in trying to figure out how best to deal with the Sepp-Blatter-fiasco-awarding of the 2022 Qatar World Cup. Thus, using the second option would reduce the number of matches from 28/30 to 20/22.

Also, the proposed first round features groups comprised of 5 and 6 countries, in which again you chose to only look at the one-third of the proposal that suited your point-of-point. I find keeping an open mind to be most useful when trying to work with people in finding an alternative solutions to the not so very well thought out format presented by Victor Montagliani, which he intentionally kept under wraps as long as possible before disclosing it to the world, in order to guarantee that his Mickey-Mouse format would be the one that is going to be used.

The reason I threw this proposal out there, is to see if there is a better alternative to what Mt. Vic has come up with. Sure my proposal needs to be worked on, or maybe even scrapped entirely for a better proposed format. I just wish that Mt. Vic would have had the wisdom and transparency to do the same.

 

Edited by Binky

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15 hours ago, Binky said:

Actually, if you read my proposal carefully and with an objective mind, then you will see that there is an option for the second round which you chose to conveniently ignore, or carelessly overlook:

"Second round: Either 1 group of 6 countries playing home and away matches with the top 3 countries advancing to play Mexico, the United States and Costa Rica in the Hex. Or having 3 pairings playing home and away matches, with the 3 winners advancing to play Mexico, the United States and Costa Rica in the Hex."

So yes, you are right, in that the first proposed option for the second round would not work for this World Cup because FIFA chose to dragged its heels in trying to figure out how best to deal with the Sepp-Blatter-fiasco-awarding of the 2022 Qatar World Cup. Thus, using the second option would reduce the number of matches from 28/30 to 20/22.

Also, the proposed first round features groups comprised of 5 and 6 countries, in which again you chose to only look at the one-third of the proposal that suited your point-of-point. I find keeping an open mind to be most useful when trying to work with people in finding an alternative solutions to the not so very well thought out format presented by Victor Montagliani, which he intentionally kept under wraps as long as possible before disclosing it to the world, in order to guarantee that his Mickey-Mouse format would be the one that is going to be used.

The reason I threw this proposal out there, is to see if there is a better alternative to what Mt. Vic has come up with. Sure my proposal needs to be worked on, or maybe even scrapped entirely for a better proposed format. I just wish that Mt. Vic would have had the wisdom and transparency to do the same.

 

I did read it carefully, and totally with an objective mind (you'll notice my critique was objective). I was just responding on my phone, so I was lazy about how much I got into it, and just gave a simplified, not so thorough observation. I didn't have time to check if 22 dates could be accommodated or not, but I was quite certain 30 couldn't.

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Just now, CanadianSoccerFan said:

Started to get in the World Cup mood when I realized Qatar is already nearing completion of its stadiums. The first two have fully retractable roofs with air conditioning and one of them happens to look like the world's largest vagina.

 

 

Well if that isn't the perfect comment on the Qatar regime (and FIFA) then I don't know what is. Although I would probably use a vulgar term for "vagina".

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, CanadianSoccerFan said:

Started to get in the World Cup mood when I realized Qatar is already nearing completion of its stadiums. The first two have fully retractable roofs with air conditioning and one of them happens to look like the world's largest vagina.

 

 

I just pray that all of these stadiums are terrorist-attack-proof. Hopefully, FIFA has addressed all the necessary precautions to ensure the safety of players, officials and fans, because the completed stadiums sure look like very susceptible targets for neighbouring enemies.

Edited by Binky

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Binky said:

I just pray that all of these stadiums are terrorist-attack-proof. Hopefully, FIFA has addressed all the necessary precautions to ensure the safety of players, officials and fans, because the completed stadiums sure look like very susceptible targets for neighbouring enemies.

Which neigbouring enemies?  If you are talking about Saudi Arabia, UAE, etc due to their current spat, they are not that crazy to start a terrorist attack.  Iran is an ally of Qatar.  If you are talking about ISIS, Qatar has been accused of bankrolling them or at least being permissive of their financing.  So I think its probably much safer to host the World Cup there then in Europe including Russia that went off without a hitch last summer

Edited by An Observer

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, An Observer said:

Which neigbouring enemies?  If you are talking about Saudi Arabia, UAE, etc due to their current spat, they are not that crazy to start a terrorist attack.  Iran is an ally of Qatar.  If you are talking about ISIS, Qatar has been accused of bankrolling them or at least being permissive of their financing.  So I think its probably much safer to host the World Cup there then in Europe including Russia that went off without a hitch last summer

I'd say Qatar has a headache or two to contend with:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017–19_Qatar_diplomatic_crisis

Things could get mighty interesting depending on who qualifies, and who draws who in the tournament.

Almost looks like some soccer fans taking a last-minute False Creek ferry ride to BC Place to catch an Israel vs. Iran soccer match, don't it?

Iranian missile boats patrol territorial waters in the Gulf

Edited by Binky

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3 hours ago, Binky said:

I'd say Qatar has a headache or two to contend with:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017–19_Qatar_diplomatic_crisis

Things could get mighty interesting depending on who qualifies, and who draws who in the tournament.

Almost looks like some soccer fans taking a last-minute False Creek ferry ride to BC Place to catch an Israel vs. Iran soccer match, don't it?

Iranian missile boats patrol territorial waters in the Gulf

Other posting some gunboats you have done nothing to substantiate your claims that seem to be rather ill informed. 

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, An Observer said:

Other posting some gunboats you have done nothing to substantiate your claims that seem to be rather ill informed. 

Oh thank God. My prayers have been answered. It's such a relief to know that FIFA has absolute no reason for any safety concerns in this peace-loving region of the Strait of Hormuz.

And yes, you are 100% correct. It's been a very long ago since I've heard anything from Sammy bin Laden's kids, Hamza in particular. So I am rather ill informed, to say the least.

In closing on this matter, I would like to thank you for putting my mind at ease. We can now all throw caution to the wind and return our attention to focusing 100% on soccer and the Road to Qatar.

BTW Do you now of any good head-shops in the region?

Edited by Binky

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14 hours ago, CanadianSoccerFan said:

Started to get in the World Cup mood when I realized Qatar is already nearing completion of its stadiums. The first two have fully retractable roofs with air conditioning and one of them happens to look like the world's largest vagina.

 

 

All this oil money. Makes one wonder how much Sepp Blatter got for letting Qatar win the bid? I do know they couldn't afford to keep Wesley Sneijder.

http://www.sportbible.com/football/news-sneijder-gets-sent-off-while-playing-in-qatar-and-reacts-shockingly-20181110

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Posted (edited)
19 minutes ago, king1010 said:

whats going on in here?

Nothing. I was just curious about the safety of staging the World Cup in Qatar. Situations like the Munich Olympics do happen. So do you feel its unreasonable to raise this concern when the World Cup is being staged in the world's most volatile region?

After all, when Canada qualifies there will be Canadian players, officials and fans traveling to Qatar. Should we just keep our heads in the sand as far as discussing safety?

Edited by Binky

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If Canada fails to make it into the CONCACAF top 6 by June of 2020, and we have to start the Road to Qatar via the non-hexagonal route, will there being a seeding system place for the group phase matches to be played from September 2020 to October 2020? If so, then Canada has to be one of the seeded countries if the seeding has to be based on the June 2020 FIFA/Coca-Cola ranking, right? Because there's no possible way that we could drop out of the top 14 CONCACAF countries by then, right?

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5 minutes ago, Binky said:

If Canada fails to make it into the CONCACAF top 6 by June of 2020, and we have to start the Road to Qatar via the non-hexagonal route, will there being a seeding system place for the group phase matches to be played from September 2020 to October 2020? If so, then Canada has to be one of the seeded countries if the seeding has to be based on the June 2020 FIFA/Coca-Cola ranking, right? Because there's no possible way that we could drop out of the top 14 CONCACAF countries by then, right?

I would have to assume so. But some of my previous assumptions about World Cup Qualifying have already been shattered by the format this cycle.

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1 hour ago, Kent said:

I would have to assume so. But some of my previous assumptions about World Cup Qualifying have already been shattered by the format this cycle.

So if we assume (usually a foolish thing to do) that the FIFA/Coca-Cola rankings will also be applied for seeding in the group phase for the non-hexagonal route, then if we used the current FIFA/Coca-Cola rankings just as an example, the 8 groups would have the following seeded countries:

Group 1 - Panama

Group 2 - Canada

Group 3 - Curacao

Group 4 - TRINIDAD AND TOBAGO

Group 5 - Haiti

Group 6 - Antigua and Barbuda

Group 7 - Nicaragua

Group 8 - St. Kitts and Nevis

So if that turns out to be the case, then we are going to get stuck playing either 4 or 6 matches against countries ranked no higher than 145th in the world? That is going to make Herdman appear like a GOD to many on this board and at the CSA in Ottawa.

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Posted (edited)

The good news is, if your a Mexican, an American or a Costa Rican soccer fan you'll be spared having to watch so many mouth-watering encounters. Who knows, Canada might not even get to play against one real good country this World Cup cycle. Thanks a lot Mt. Vic. for screwing Canadian soccer once again. This is bound to raise the profile of soccer in Canada, for sure, eh? Broadcaster will be lining up around the block for a chance to televise these matches.

Edited by Binky

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In the example above, I wonder how they would determine the 4 quarter-final matchups once the group stage was finished.

Would the seeding create the QF matchups in a 1 vs. 8, 2 vs. 7, 3 vs. 6, 4 vs. 5 format?

Would they put the top 4 seeded group winners in a pot, the bottom 4 in another, and draw the matchups that way?

I would hope it wouldn't be an open draw as there's a big difference between getting Panama as your next opponent and getting Saint Kitts and Nevis. You'd think CONCACAF would want to guard against a scenario where totally unbalanced quarter-finals could occur from an open draw (1 could end up playing 2, while 7 could end up playing 8), but you never know what CONCACAF thinks is logical.

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Posted (edited)
36 minutes ago, jtpc said:

In the example above, I wonder how they would determine the 4 quarter-final matchups once the group stage was finished.

Would the seeding create the QF matchups in a 1 vs. 8, 2 vs. 7, 3 vs. 6, 4 vs. 5 format?

Would they put the top 4 seeded group winners in a pot, the bottom 4 in another, and draw the matchups that way?

I would hope it wouldn't be an open draw as there's a big difference between getting Panama as your next opponent and getting Saint Kitts and Nevis. You'd think CONCACAF would want to guard against a scenario where totally unbalanced quarter-finals could occur from an open draw (1 could end up playing 2, while 7 could end up playing 8), but you never know what CONCACAF thinks is logical.

I think they will seed the first round of the knock out stage by randomly drawing each one of the top 4 against one of the bottom 4. Which, with the current rankings, would make Haiti a high hurdle for one of the top 4. I suspect that after that it will be random but they could seed the semis too.

Another question is whether the path through the knock out stage will be determined at the same time the groups are drawn, as in the World Cup, or whether the knock out draw will take place after the group stage has completed, as with UEFA WCQ for the 8 best 2nd place teams. The former could result in an imbalance due to an unexpected group winner but could also be perceived as "fairer" for everybody.

Edited by Lofty

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2 hours ago, jtpc said:

In the example above, I wonder how they would determine the 4 quarter-final matchups once the group stage was finished.

Would the seeding create the QF matchups in a 1 vs. 8, 2 vs. 7, 3 vs. 6, 4 vs. 5 format?

Would they put the top 4 seeded group winners in a pot, the bottom 4 in another, and draw the matchups that way?

I would hope it wouldn't be an open draw as there's a big difference between getting Panama as your next opponent and getting Saint Kitts and Nevis. You'd think CONCACAF would want to guard against a scenario where totally unbalanced quarter-finals could occur from an open draw (1 could end up playing 2, while 7 could end up playing 8), but you never know what CONCACAF thinks is logical.

Even after last week's grand announcement: "Concacaf Announces Format for the 2022 FIFA World Cup Confederation Qualifiers," I am dumbfounded by how many unanswered questions remain regarding the CONCACAF 2022 FIFA World Cup Confederation Qualifiers. Is Victor Montagliani making the format up as he goes along? Where is the transparency and full-disclosure Victor Montagliani spoke of when grabbing the stage and telling the world that Canada could not support someone like Sepp Blatter? Is Victor Montagliani capable of drafting up a format in a timely fashion that leaves no stone unturned? Thus far, there has been no evidence of that! Is Victor Montagliani competent enough the look after the affairs of a soccer confederation like CONCACAF? Is Victor Montagliani demonstrating that he has the business acumen that will be required when CONCACAF hosts the next World Cup in 2026? 

https://www.concacaf.com/world-cup-qualifying-men/article/concacaf-announces-format-for-the-2022-fifa-world-cup-confederation-qualifiers

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