The Road to Qatar.

[Shway]

Ignorance is really bliss. 

Our captain never stepped foot in the country before he committed to the program, and we have all these rules. At least there captain was everything you guys are mentioning...played in the country, born in the country.etc.

If you know the history of Jamaica and Jamaicans, you would understand how and why they are very prideful people. You would know that the diaspora whether in London, Toronto, New York, Florida, Atlanta is massive. You would know that although you are living in another country, or city, at home you are raised as a Jamaican - a lot of the times by your grandparent due to your parent(s) working overtime to make a way. That’s second generation culture. And I know that, as being one and having family in the said countries, so I know it’s the same especially the UK and Toronto Jamaican culture.

As for the fans, its a case of yea they want the “local ballas” to get the opportunity to make a way . But they understand with a good team, they can get to the WC in which will bring in more sponsorships which equals to more dollars for Jamaican football. It’s all down to - are you committed to the program? A lot of the key/core players are Jamaican born.

They got, and will get more depth. But we do too! You guys sound scared. 

[SoccMan]

53 minutes ago, Shway said:

Ignorance is really bliss. 

Our captain never stepped foot in the country before he committed to the program, and we have all these rules. At least there captain was everything you guys are mentioning...played in the country, born in the country.etc.

If you know the history of Jamaica and Jamaicans, you would understand how and why they are very prideful people. You would know that the diaspora whether in London, Toronto, New York, Florida, Atlanta is massive. You would know that although you are living in another country, or city, at home you are raised as a Jamaican - a lot of the times by your grandparent due to your parent(s) working overtime to make a way. That’s second generation culture. And I know that, as being one and having family in the said countries, so I know it’s the same especially the UK and Toronto Jamaican culture.

As for the fans, its a case of yea they want the “local ballas” to get the opportunity to make a way . But they understand with a good team, they can get to the WC in which will bring in more sponsorships which equals to more dollars for Jamaican football. It’s all down to - are you committed to the program? A lot of the key/core players are Jamaican born.

They got, and will get more depth. But we do too! You guys sound scared. 

Ok cool I get it , but for Canada a country with soccer registrations that rival hockey amongst our youth I think we should not have a problem with producing players from within  all these kids that grow up playing soccer from an early age, if we were not able to have the majority of our national team players produced from within all these youth players that grow up playing at least some of their youth soccer here in Canada to be competitive and had to stack most of our team with players like Arfield , then a major rethink of what we are doing at the grassroots level would be needed. However , as you look at our Canadian roster now and see some of the talent we have on it you will see that the vast majority of these players spent a decent amount of their soccer playing youth years here in Canada , witch shows the grassroots here in Canada is finally starting to do something right and that makes me proud as a guy who has spent a lot of time coaching within our Canadian youth soccer system.

[CanadianSoccerFan]

1 hour ago, Shway said:

Ignorance is really bliss. 

Our captain never stepped foot in the country before he committed to the program, and we have all these rules. At least there captain was everything you guys are mentioning...played in the country, born in the country.etc.

If you know the history of Jamaica and Jamaicans, you would understand how and why they are very prideful people. You would know that the diaspora whether in London, Toronto, New York, Florida, Atlanta is massive. You would know that although you are living in another country, or city, at home you are raised as a Jamaican - a lot of the times by your grandparent due to your parent(s) working overtime to make a way. That’s second generation culture. And I know that, as being one and having family in the said countries, so I know it’s the same especially the UK and Toronto Jamaican culture.

As for the fans, its a case of yea they want the “local ballas” to get the opportunity to make a way . But they understand with a good team, they can get to the WC in which will bring in more sponsorships which equals to more dollars for Jamaican football. It’s all down to - are you committed to the program? A lot of the key/core players are Jamaican born.

They got, and will get more depth. But we do too! You guys sound scared. 

 

Completely agree with this.  I think a better way to understand it is to look at English born players who are making career sacrifices for far less glamorous Caribbean sides than Jamaica.  At least with Jamaica there's a shot at the World Cup and some glory.  But look at the guys playing Championship level football in England willing to sacrifice and play for Montserrat, St Kitts and various other sides with no real shot at doing anything.  Nobody would do that unless it meant something in their heart to them and their families. 

Ultimately, I think it's a good thing for football in CONCACAF because it raises the competitiveness of the region.

[Shortdutchcanuck]

59 minutes ago, Shway said:

Ignorance is really bliss. 

Our captain never stepped foot in the country before he committed to the program, and we have all these rules. At least there captain was everything you guys are mentioning...played in the country, born in the country.etc.

If you know the history of Jamaica and Jamaicans, you would understand how and why they are very prideful people. You would know that the diaspora whether in London, Toronto, New York, Florida, Atlanta is massive. You would know that although you are living in another country, or city, at home you are raised as a Jamaican - a lot of the times by your grandparent due to your parent(s) working overtime to make a way. That’s second generation culture. And I know that, as being one and having family in the said countries, so I know it’s the same especially the UK and Toronto Jamaican culture.

As for the fans, its a case of yea they want the “local ballas” to get the opportunity to make a way . But they understand with a good team, they can get to the WC in which will bring in more sponsorships which equals to more dollars for Jamaican football. It’s all down to - are you committed to the program? A lot of the key/core players are Jamaican born.

They got, and will get more depth. But we do too! You guys sound scared. 

This debate is really different for Canada or the US vs  Caribbean or even Central American countries.  We have had a high immigration rate and they have had a high emigration rate.  You take a little country like Grenada with a population of just over 112,000 on the island but at least that many again elsewhere in Caribbean and at least that many again in US, Canada, England.  Most of those living abroad, even a couple generations in, still have very strong cultural connections to their heritage country.  Luckily the rules allowed Arfield to play for us but I'm not sure he had much of a significant cultural connection to Canada before he played for us.  You see it with El Salvador being interested in Velado-Tsegaye and various Americans of Salvadoran heritage.  So of course Jamaicans are going to want local players representing them but I imagine they are also very proud of English players of Jamaican heritage balling out over there.  And if this is the way to be competitive with the US and Mexico and bring more money and attention to your national program so be it.

 

[CanadaFan123]

To each their own but I don’t feel that these Jamaican UB-40 players have worked out for Jamaica in recent years. For the most part they aren’t as committed as local players and tend to have short stints or favour club football over the national side.
 

It’s similar to Canadian-Italian culture which is very strong. There is quite a difference between being raised with the culture and actually being from that country. To grow up in England and then travel to Jamaica to play is a completely different world.

Regardless, Jamaica is a talented side with or without them.

[Stryker911]

14 minutes ago, CanadianSoccerFan said:

 

Completely agree with this.  I think a better way to understand it is to look at English born players who are making career sacrifices for far less glamorous Caribbean sides than Jamaica.  At least with Jamaica there's a shot at the World Cup and some glory.  But look at the guys playing Championship level football in England willing to sacrifice and play for Montserrat, St Kitts and various other sides with no real shot at doing anything.  Nobody would do that unless it meant something in their heart to them and their families. 

Ultimately, I think it's a good thing for football in CONCACAF because it raises the competitiveness of the region.

I understand why this is is good for the US and Mexico to have more competitive games. Its better for them overall to win 3-0 than 10-0. But it isn't beneficial to us for them to be better when we are directly competing with them.

[archer21]

I think it’s easy to say that you don’t want all these players without big ties to Canada, but to me it’s all about having the best team and winning. If they are committed to playing for us, then I want them to play for us. Let’s be honest, if we started bringing in high level players from England, we would not complain one bit.

[SthMelbRed]

2 hours ago, archer21 said:

I think it’s easy to say that you don’t want all these players without big ties to Canada, but to me it’s all about having the best team and winning. If they are committed to playing for us, then I want them to play for us. Let’s be honest, if we started bringing in high level players from England, we would not complain one bit.

It's a question of what your point of pride is. If you want your national team to do well because that's a reflection of a successful development system, recruiting a dozen guys who have had zero participation in that system renders that moot, and makes international football less relevant. I'm not overly bothered when a guy like Tomori chooses to play for England over us. He's only technically Canadian, anyway. However, when guys like JDG2 jump, it actually does hurt, because whatever lies he tells about 'feeling Dutch', he's actually very much Canadian. 

[SthMelbRed]

4 hours ago, Shway said:

Ignorance is really bliss. 

Our captain never stepped foot in the country before he committed to the program, and we have all these rules. At least there captain was everything you guys are mentioning...played in the country, born in the country.etc.

If you know the history of Jamaica and Jamaicans, you would understand how and why they are very prideful people. You would know that the diaspora whether in London, Toronto, New York, Florida, Atlanta is massive. You would know that although you are living in another country, or city, at home you are raised as a Jamaican - a lot of the times by your grandparent due to your parent(s) working overtime to make a way. That’s second generation culture. And I know that, as being one and having family in the said countries, so I know it’s the same especially the UK and Toronto Jamaican culture.

As for the fans, its a case of yea they want the “local ballas” to get the opportunity to make a way . But they understand with a good team, they can get to the WC in which will bring in more sponsorships which equals to more dollars for Jamaican football. It’s all down to - are you committed to the program? A lot of the key/core players are Jamaican born.

They got, and will get more depth. But we do too! You guys sound scared. 

Don't kid yourself that Jamaicans and their diaspora are in any way unique amongst the hundreds of immigrant communities scattered around the world. They all have a history and they're all 'prideful people'.

I have had interactions amongst the largest community within the Jamaican diaspora. My best friend when living in London is of Jamaican background, both her parents being born there and her (now ex-) husband being a born-and-raised Jamaican. If you ask her, she'll tell you she's English, even if she's very proud of her Jamaican background, eats the food, listens to the music, etc. But, I can say the exact same thing about my friends and former London colleagues from T&T, Nigeria, Somalia, Sierra Leone, or Italy. You can say the same thing about a few thousand people in Surrey or Brampton of Punjabi descent. None of them are unique in that regard.

There's a reason that the diaspora players tend to be in their mid- to late-20s when they make their international debuts. It's because they're taking their only shot at international football with their 2nd choice nation.

[archer21]

58 minutes ago, SthMelbRed said:

It's a question of what your point of pride is. If you want your national team to do well because that's a reflection of a successful development system, recruiting a dozen guys who have had zero participation in that system renders that moot, and makes international football less relevant. I'm not overly bothered when a guy like Tomori chooses to play for England over us. He's only technically Canadian, anyway. However, when guys like JDG2 jump, it actually does hurt, because whatever lies he tells about 'feeling Dutch', he's actually very much Canadian. 

Tomori was born in Calgary, it doesn’t get much more Canadian than that. And if he’d have chosen Canada, everyone would love him and consider him Canadian.

[SthMelbRed]

7 minutes ago, archer21 said:

Tomori was born in Calgary, it doesn’t get much more Canadian than that. And if he’d have chosen Canada, everyone would love him and consider him Canadian.

I understand that he was born in Canada and has the legal right to a Canadian passport. However, he left before he could walk or talk and only came back to play football, since he wasn't on England's radar at that point. Had he chosen to represent Canada at senior level, I'd have been fine with that. That he's chosen to represent the country where he was raised and where he actually learned to play football doesn't bother me in the least bit. If we dragged 18 Tomoris from all over Europe and put them in Canada shirts for WCQ, I would definitely lose interest in watching the team to a significant degree. I get more joy from watching an immigrant to Canada, who proudly dons the Maple Leaf to represent their adopted home, play for us than I do from watching somebody who is technically Canadian, but doesn't actually represent who we are as a nation. That's not a slight on Tomori or Arfield or Bircham or Menezes or Will Johnson. However, those guys are English, Scottish, English, Brazilian, and American, even if they used sometime loose FIFA rules on eligibility to play for Canada internationally.

[archer21]

2 hours ago, SthMelbRed said:

I understand that he was born in Canada and has the legal right to a Canadian passport. However, he left before he could walk or talk and only came back to play football, since he wasn't on England's radar at that point. Had he chosen to represent Canada at senior level, I'd have been fine with that. That he's chosen to represent the country where he was raised and where he actually learned to play football doesn't bother me in the least bit. If we dragged 18 Tomoris from all over Europe and put them in Canada shirts for WCQ, I would definitely lose interest in watching the team to a significant degree. I get more joy from watching an immigrant to Canada, who proudly dons the Maple Leaf to represent their adopted home, play for us than I do from watching somebody who is technically Canadian, but doesn't actually represent who we are as a nation. That's not a slight on Tomori or Arfield or Bircham or Menezes or Will Johnson. However, those guys are English, Scottish, English, Brazilian, and American, even if they used sometime loose FIFA rules on eligibility to play for Canada internationally.

To each their own I guess. I just find it hard to believe that anyone would care if they brought us back to the World Cup. Winning cures all.

[SthMelbRed]

2 minutes ago, archer21 said:

To each their own I guess. I just find it hard to believe that anyone would care if they brought us back to the World Cup. Winning cures all.

You'd watch proudly as a team full of players naturalised purely for the purpose of playing football for Canada, similarly to what Qatar and Bahrain were attempting 10-15 years ago, won matches wearing the Maple Leaf? I wouldn't.

[archer21]

46 minutes ago, SthMelbRed said:

You'd watch proudly as a team full of players naturalised purely for the purpose of playing football for Canada, similarly to what Qatar and Bahrain were attempting 10-15 years ago, won matches wearing the Maple Leaf? I wouldn't.

That’s a ridiculous scenario that isn’t going to happen though. Nobody worth a damn would naturalize in Jamaica or Canada purely to play for them. These players have legitimate connections to the nation that they’re playing for. Arfield probably has the least connection, and we love him. If someone wants to represent the Maple Leaf, who are we to say they aren’t Canadian enough.

[One American]

Keep in mind that the two of the three best players there are "in talks with JFF," not counting the guys already onboard. Don't know exactly what "talks" means.  There have been a number of more established players "in talks" with JFF who haven't come aboard - yet. If I were Toney, I might have reasonable expectations for England. I would guess Hayden comes aboard, however. But he's not a great EPL player. 

 

Edited January 10, 2021 by One American

[Kadenge]

While I dont think anyone would object to a Tomori or Cristante playing for us for the simple reason that it would make us stronger, there is a tipping point where it becomes a complete mockery.  It is vital that our grass roots development plan continues to improve and that we produce homegrown talent, even if that talent is further nutured in Europe like Davies, David and hopefully Millar, Corbeanu, Mitrovic, Nelsen, JMR, Priso etc or even better in CPL. Davies and David are making a statement in the Football world for Canada because they are Canadians that were developed in Canada. That's a big difference and in my opinion the way to go.  Everyone knows Arfield is Scottish and developed in Scotland/England. Jamaica went with mostly English based players in the 2015 GC and the team performed very well, but very few of those players ever played after the Copa America that same year. Since thenJamaica's coach has had success with a combination of MLS, domestic and a few English  based players.  Perhaps there is pressure from the JFF to field the stongest players for this WCQ , on paper,  but Jamaica looked like a close knit group in both the 2017 and 2019 GCs. Team chemistry is a tricky thing to perfect.

[Kadenge]

10 minutes ago, One American said:

Keep in mind that the two of the three best players there are "in talks with JFF," not counting the guys already onboard. Don't know exactly what "talks" means.  There have been a number of more established players "in talks" with JFF who haven't come aboard - yet. If I were Toney, I might have reasonable expectations for England. I would guess Hayden comes aboard, however. But he's not a great EPL player. 

 

Yup, Ivan Toney of Brentford is 24 yrs old and currently leading the Championship in scoring with 16 goals in 20+ games. He is going to get signed by an EPL team soon if he keeps this up. 

[One American]

The other thing to keep an eye on is if Haiti starts recruiting. Hopefully their federation is too screwed up to do it successfully. But they have two LIgue 1 regulars, a young Ligue 1 hanger-on, and a starter for Anderlecht (with 1 cap for Belgium). Plus Fafa Picault and Benji Michel in MLS. 

 

Curacao has a lot of potential recruiting options, too. A lot of guys in the 4-5 million range. But I'd be  surprised if the best of them are ready to settle. Still pretty young. And Curacao probably aren't that good. They're more of a nice story. 

 

Edited January 10, 2021 by One American

[Kent]

3 hours ago, SthMelbRed said:

You'd watch proudly as a team full of players naturalised purely for the purpose of playing football for Canada, similarly to what Qatar and Bahrain were attempting 10-15 years ago, won matches wearing the Maple Leaf? I wouldn't.

What if that group of naturalized players qualifies for the World Cup, gets the team into the mainstream. Gets Canadian flags out on the streets during the World Cup. Packs in 25k - 30k fans at BMO field for a Nations League game against St. Kitts, gets people talking about the Gold Cup like it is relevant like the Euro. These would absolutely be great for the program, if you would rather turn that down, you do you. I would love it. All things being equal I’d love for the team to be made up of players that learned to play and also got their pro start in Canada, or better yet, were able to make bundles of money right here in the CPL. But you take what you can get to make the sport here stronger.

[Olympique_de_Marseille]

4 hours ago, One American said:

Haiti starts recruiting....but they have two LIgue 1 regulars, a young Ligue 1...

Names?

[SpursFlu]

Let's not forget the whole world has players who are naturalized. Its pretty common. I dont think there is a right or wrong answer here. You can even drill it down further.. am I more excited about Alphonso Davies then someone living in Ottawa who is more excited about Jonathan David? Sure. Would I be more pumped about a starting 11 who all came thru mls and cpl academies as apposed to a starting 11 of naturalized players? Of course I would be. Its only natural. But at this point I'm not kicking anybody out of bed. If people want to throw on the Maple Leaf, great. 

[One American]

To clarify, I don't mean Haiti have now. I mean "could get."

[Olympique_de_Marseille]

16 hours ago, One American said:

To clarify, I don't mean Haiti have now. I mean "could get."

Yes I know. 

 

22 hours ago, One American said:

and a starter for Anderlecht (with 1 cap for Belgium).

Obviously https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hannes_Delcroix

22 hours ago, One American said:

a young Ligue 1 hanger-on

I assume you are talking about https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean-Ricner_Bellegarde

22 hours ago, One American said:

they have two Ligue 1 regulars

I assume you are talking about https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean-Kévin_Augustin (who isn't that much of a regular anymore) and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean-Kévin_Duverne

Did I get it right?

 

 

[One American]

I think that's right. 

I guess the main point is that if Jamaica does it, that's somewhat manageable, but if another team that performed well at Gold Cup does, it gets a little scarier. 

It's hard to know what to make of Haiti, because they and El Salvador are in the "overperforming club pedigree" category. But it must be hard to get scouts to go to Haiti to see players. 

Edited January 11, 2021 by One American

[Olympique_de_Marseille]

10 hours ago, One American said:

It's hard to know what to make of Haiti...But it must be hard to get scouts to go to Haiti to see players. 

They had a football riot yesterday; with deaths.

https://lenouvelliste.com/article/225062/des-morts-et-des-blesses-lors-du-match-retour-de-la-finale-opposant-larcahaie-fc-au-violette-ac/amp

Edited January 11, 2021 by Olympique_de_Marseille