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Just now, baulderdash77 said:

It would be phased in over 2-3 years.  Start at 4 and build to 6 in 3 years.  All the teams could play 4 players now without question.

The Canadian player pool is just so much deeper than it was even 5 years ago.  Montreal is basically doing this every game now anyways.  
 

Targeting minutes rather than starters is harder because your talking about limiting in game adjustments and how would the ref enforce that.

It would definitely be the end of foreign journeymen players in the 3 MLS teams.  
 

If you look at how the CFL manages non-import players you see that they often become offensive linemen and defensive linemen with some other skill positions added.  I would imagine that under this setup you would see most keepers, CB’s and CDM’s getting filled by Canadian players with some FB, Wingers and CM’s ocasionally being used but the big money players (attacking options) being almost exclusively foreign players.

 

 

 

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7 minutes ago, baulderdash77 said:

I  
 

Targeting minutes rather than starters is harder because your talking about limiting in game adjustments and how would the ref enforce that.

 

 

 

That's how the CPL does it.

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5 hours ago, baulderdash77 said:

For example, I’m in favour of the CSA imposing the same CanCon restrictions for every D1 team playing in Canada with no exceptions. 6 Canadian starters per game.  Figure it out MLS teams.   That would force them to develop (quickly) Canadian players.  For sure practically every CM and DM would be Canadian at least.

 

It would also force teams to play players who are not ready to play in MLS or dont have the talent.  Or have to scramble to find canadian CND players who can play in mLS.  Or have to over pay canadians to play in MLS and affect the salary cap.  And that would affect the canadian club’s performance in the league and, by extention, their revenues which ultimately accrue to the development system.  
 

But the bigger question is:  what is wrong with what TFC have been doing so far from a developement standpoint?  Look at the latest MNT roster in this window.  And dont forget that Ayo Akinola would be on the team were it not for his season ending injury.  Been posting here since 2000 and when MLS arrived,  i thought that if we could have the canadian mls clubs developing 4-5 players for our national team, that would be ideal.   Its turned out to be better that i ever expected.     The majority of the team is MLS players.   Or mls developed players, or partially MLS deveoped players.  Or got contracts in MLS that allowed them to extend their careers.  And this same MNT went out and got a 1-1 draw at Azteca and is about to qualify for the world cup.  Look at the players in which TFC developemnt played a role. What more can you ask for?  

 

PS:  is there a US based MLS team that has contributed more americans to their nationals team than TFC has contributed canadians to the CMNT?   I dont think so.  You might say that TFC has done more for their national team than any other team in MLS. Either that or  All those US MLS teams are also anti american.

Edited by Free kick
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Whats your point? You could say that NCAA and non CDN MLS team have done just as much to develop our CDN as TFC.  Miller, Johnston, Buchanon, Larin, St Clair (current roster) with 4 of those guys being current starting 11 on our best team in years.  With absolutely no incentive to do so I might add.   And 4 of those guys being from the TO area.  But none of this is the main point.  There are glaring examples (2 of them in Jamaica now) of that could have very easily got more chances from TFC, and it wouldt have cost them games, it wouldnt have hurt the team whatsoever and they chose to go with others. 

And if you cant see why that would stick in the craw of the CDN fans of TFC I dont know what to do.  And dont try to make the straw man argument that we want all of them to start and we wanted Hamilton >Jozy, Manella>Bradley, Skylar Thomas>Moor, Morgan>Morrow, Lombardo>Barret etc.  TFC gets credit for Henry, Oso, Lareya, Ayo but they are big boys they can take the flack for others they have mucked up on.  It seems like they have the richest hotbed of talent in north america under their noses and we are just supposed to shut up and be happy with the way they do things because a couple guys turn out.

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9 hours ago, Bison44 said:

 It seems like they have the richest hotbed of talent in north america under their noses and we are just supposed to shut up and be happy with the way they do things because a couple guys turn out.

Thats real stretch.  We all like to think as canadians that our guys are good and we are good at what we do, thats normal.   But sometimes we need a reality check.  You are saying that there is a bigger pool of talent in southern ontario than those more populous states like California, Florida, Texas… etc and all those southern states where you can play soccer outdoors year round?  And what about Mexico?  Yes we are ok.  But other places can do well too and have the conditions to do well and do better.    Also,  at the ground level, the sport competes for talent with Basketball and hockey..etc. in southern Ontario.   Look at the the number of NBA players from southern ontario who are  in div 1 schools.   
 

Edited by Free kick
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9 hours ago, Bison44 said:

TFC gets credit for Henry, Oso, Lareya, Ayo but they are big boys they can take the flack for others they have mucked up on.

Do they though?  Henry and Ayo, I agree.  Osorio and Laryea weren't really "developed" by TFC per se.

Looking at the current MNT roster is more damning of TFC than anything.

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43 minutes ago, Free kick said:

Thats real stretch.  We all like to think as canadians that our guys are good and we are good at what we do, thats normal.   But sometimes we need a reality check.  You are saying that there is a bigger pool of talent in southern ontario than those more populous states like California, Florida, Texas… etc and all those southern states where you can play soccer outdoors year round?  And what about Mexico?  Yes we are ok.  But other places can do well too and have the conditions to do well and do better.    Also,  at the ground level, the sport competes for talent with Basketball and hockey..etc. in southern Ontario.   Look at the the number of NBA players from southern ontario who are  in div 1 schools.   
 

I'm from Quebec so I have no dog in this fight. Actually, it pains me to admit this.  Just on the national team let's look at the players from Ontario:

Borjan

St Clair

Johnston

Vitoria

Larin

Henry

Miller

Buchanan

Cavallini

Cornelius

David

Eustaquio

Fraser (partly)

Huilett

Hutchinson

Johnston

Kaye

Laryea

Millar

Osorio

 

Now go through the USA team and see if any state provided half of what Ontario provided for the CAN MNT. And I may have forgotten some names.

Edited by Sal333
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The Vaughan SC had more players drafted to the MLS two years ago than any state combined.  The success of some of the Toronto FC youth teams in recent years down south shows the talent is here.  The TFC academies filled with local kids go down and compete with the best US academies that recruit from across the country.  The GTA has always produced some of the best youth talent in North America.  Until recently, it has never translated to senior success for club or country.

Under Herdman era:

Ontario - 47 players have been called for Canada

Quebec - 12 players have been called for Canada

Alberta - 10 players have been called for Canada

British Columbia - 6 players have been called for Canada

No Direct Affiliation - 6 players have been called for Canada

Manitoba - 1 player has been called for Canada

Saskatchewan - 1 player has been called for Canada

Nova Scotia - 1 player has been called for Canada

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2 hours ago, El Hombre said:

Do they though?  Henry and Ayo, I agree.  Osorio and Laryea weren't really "developed" by TFC per se.

Looking at the current MNT roster is more damning of TFC than anything.

While neither Osorio nor Laryea spent their teenage years with TFC, it’s hard to argue that TFC didn’t have a large influence in their development as players.

Osorio is a completely different player than what he was when he made his TFC debut in 2013, he’s far more well-rounded and versatile, especially off the ball, which one of the biggest challenges Vanney and his staff set out for Osorio over the years as his playing time got challenged by high-priced foreigners.

Laryea, meanwhile, transformed into a highly dangerous fullback/winger after flaming out at Orlando as a more central midfielder. TFC recognized the raw tools Laryea had and trained him into an incredibly effective player. 

I understand the track record of many of the other TFC players discussed in here may not be up to expectations but development isn’t just limited to the years before a player turns 20.

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It seems Canada football is at a tipping point somewhat similar to where the Canada basketball program was at around 6/7 years ago. It was at that point - through the commitment of a few talented vets who'd broke into the NBA, the "out-of-nowhere" emergence of some ultra-talented young players and the beginnings of quality development at home - that everyone else finally took notice. International scouting absolutely skyrocketed (mostly in Ontario) and regardless of development, or lack thereof, boat loads of players began being snapped up by quality programs all over the NCAA (see Chris Boucher). 

My point is, regardless of what has, or hasn't happened with TFC, Canada's talent is no longer a "secret" and we are about to be inundated (it's already happening) with a massive influx of interest from all over the planet. If Ontario and the GTA (other areas to follow)  aren't already the world's hotbeds for footy talent then they are about to be. 

Obvi this is just my opinion but I can't see it being wrong😜

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9 hours ago, RS said:

While neither Osorio nor Laryea spent their teenage years with TFC, it’s hard to argue that TFC didn’t have a large influence in their development as players.

Osorio is a completely different player than what he was when he made his TFC debut in 2013, he’s far more well-rounded and versatile, especially off the ball, which one of the biggest challenges Vanney and his staff set out for Osorio over the years as his playing time got challenged by high-priced foreigners.

Laryea, meanwhile, transformed into a highly dangerous fullback/winger after flaming out at Orlando as a more central midfielder. TFC recognized the raw tools Laryea had and trained him into an incredibly effective player. 

I understand the track record of many of the other TFC players discussed in here may not be up to expectations but development isn’t just limited to the years before a player turns 20.

Sure, that's fine, but if we're adjusting goalposts, the same has to be said of CFM for ZBG, Bassong, Miller, and Piette.  They may not have spent their youth with them, but CFM has given them a chance to blossom into the players they will be.  So, going back to the original question, is TFC's track record really that good?

 

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4 minutes ago, El Hombre said:

Sure, that's fine, but if we're adjusting goalposts, the same has to be said of CFM for ZBG, Bassong, Miller, and Piette.  They may not have spent their youth with them, but CFM has given them a chance to blossom into the players they will be.  So, going back to the original question, is TFC's track record really that good?

I literally did say the same of ZBG a few pages ago.

On 10/9/2021 at 11:56 AM, RS said:

ZBG is not a Montreal academy product.

I do give IMFC/CFM credit for bringing him over and helping make him into the player he is now, though. That was the kind of low-risk/high-reward gamble that pays off for smart clubs.

Piette probably should be included in that group, but Bassong and Miller literally joined Montreal this year and are only 20+ games into their CFM careers.

That's clearly different than an Osorio who joined TFC as a raw 20 year old and has played his entire pro career (300+ games) there, or a Laryea who was plucked off the scrap heap and developed into playing (and dominating) a completely different position than the one he had played his whole life up to that point.

So, going back to the original question, TFC's track record could be better, much better even, but it's not as bad as has been portrayed on this board. And going back to the actual topic of this thread, the overreaction from some on here that JMR isn't playing the full 90 of every game for TFC this season is ill-advised, at best.

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33 minutes ago, RS said:

 

So, going back to the original question, TFC's track record could be better, much better even, but it's not as bad as has been portrayed on this board. And going back to the actual topic of this thread, the overreaction from some on here that JMR isn't playing the full 90 of every game for TFC this season is ill-advised, at best.

Ahhh the straw man rises.  The kid needs more minutes (80 this year so far??) turns into people want him starting every game.  How about one start first??  Same with Dunn, how about one appearance.... a 25min sub to see if he is even close to being ready??

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9 minutes ago, Bison44 said:

Ahhh the straw man rises.

It's certainly exaggeration on my part, or even hyperbole, but it's not a straw man.

25 minutes ago, Bison44 said:

The kid needs more minutes (80 this year so far??) turns into people want him starting every game.  How about one start first??

As @ag futbol has repeatedly pointed out, JMR's got a kid's body and hardly even stands out in USL-1. Yet he's still getting minutes now that the season is well and truly over, based on nothing more than his potential (because he has so much of it, even though it has yet to show up against men at the MLS or USL-1 levels).

How many 17 year olds have ever started for a Canadian MLS team aside from Davies? The list is incredibly short.

25 minutes ago, Bison44 said:

Same with Dunn, how about one appearance.... a 25min sub to see if he is even close to being ready??

As for Dunn, I agree he should be given another shot. He was injured for much of this season, but there still have been opportunities to take a look at him in a first-team match or two.

Going back to a point I made earlier, Dunn's another player who at 21 is still younger than most of the Canadians currently playing anywhere in MLS. The onus should be on all three MLS sides to provide more opportunities for U21s.

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36 minutes ago, RS said:

It's certainly exaggeration on my part, or even hyperbole, but it's not a straw man.

Exaggeration and hyperbole yes, but since you're in a debate it's 100% a straw man. @Bison44is saying JMR needs more minutes -especially since TFCs season is effectively over- as are some others. He's not saying that JMR should be, "playing the full 90 of every game for TFC this season."  You are clearly distorting what others are arguing in order to make your point seem more sensible and less fallible. No need to deny the painfully obvious. 

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8 hours ago, PegCityCam said:

Exaggeration and hyperbole yes, but since you're in a debate it's 100% a straw man. @Bison44is saying JMR needs more minutes -especially since TFCs season is effectively over- as are some others. He's not saying that JMR should be, "playing the full 90 of every game for TFC this season."  You are clearly distorting what others are arguing in order to make your point seem more sensible and less fallible. No need to deny the painfully obvious. 

True. No one else in this discussion has strayed from the absolute truth to make a point, just me.

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5 hours ago, RS said:

True. No one else in this discussion has strayed from the absolute truth to make a point, just me.

Hype the kid up in the media, then double down by saying the season is all about the young players. Proceed to shit the bed, but force the kids to sit around and watch, so they learn what not to do. 

I don't understand why anyone is questioning this tried and true development plan. 

Edit: was not meant to quote you RS. 

Edited by kacbru
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On 10/10/2021 at 10:39 PM, El Hombre said:

……So, going back to the original question, is TFC's track record really that good?

 

Just to make sure that we are not moving or adjusting the goal posts.   The original question was :   “Is TFC’s track record really that bad?”    Because,  that was what i was responding to when this discussion started here.   Thats what teh original question was. And thats what i am responding to. 

Edited by Free kick
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On 10/11/2021 at 12:50 AM, Bison44 said:

Ahhh the straw man rises.  The kid needs more minutes (80 this year so far??) turns into people want him starting every game.  How about one start first??  Same with Dunn, how about one appearance.... a 25min sub to see if he is even close to being ready??

Honest question, have you actually watched him play in any of these recent sub appearances? He’s noticeably behind the pace of play and still comes across as very young. This is after he hit a growth spurt, so I think mostly keeping off the field at the start of the year and giving him limited minutes now isn’t exactly a bad call. This is a much better investment in his development than you are making it out to be.
 

As far as Dunn goes he has struggled immensely when seeing the field for the first team this year, to the point it’s entirely obvious he’s behind Singh in the pecking order and not at all ready for first team minutes. I know that’s not what people want to hear but it is what it is. Just cause you’re signed to a first team contract doesn’t mean you’re going to make it or should be given first team minutes.

 

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30 minutes ago, ag futbol said:

Honest question, have you actually watched him play in any of these recent sub appearances? He’s noticeably behind the pace of play and still comes across as very young. This is after he hit a growth spurt, so I think mostly keeping off the field at the start of the year and giving him limited minutes now isn’t exactly a bad call. This is a much better investment in his development than you are making it out to be.
 

As far as Dunn goes he has struggled immensely when seeing the field for the first team this year, to the point it’s entirely obvious he’s behind Singh in the pecking order and not at all ready for first team minutes. I know that’s not what people want to hear but it is what it is. Just cause you’re signed to a first team contract doesn’t mean you’re going to make it or should be given first team minutes.

 

Yup people have no clue about these players, the coaches are around them all the time they see them in practice everyday so I think they have a better read on a player than anyone , they make their decisions on what they see everyday with the players . Like I keep saying how many academy players actually make the first team and make a good career with the first teams all over the world ? Not many very few go  on to make it with the first team .

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54 minutes ago, ag futbol said:

Honest question, have you actually watched him play in any of these recent sub appearances? He’s noticeably behind the pace of play and still comes across as very young. This is after he hit a growth spurt, so I think mostly keeping off the field at the start of the year and giving him limited minutes now isn’t exactly a bad call. This is a much better investment in his development than you are making it out to be.
As far as Dunn goes he has struggled immensely when seeing the field for the first team this year, to the point it’s entirely obvious he’s behind Singh in the pecking order and not at all ready for first team minutes. I know that’s not what people want to hear but it is what it is. Just cause you’re signed to a first team contract doesn’t mean you’re going to make it or should be given first team minutes.

Yes, and I try to take notice as TFC is usually so bad this year and I have watched a lot of TFC2 to see how Nelsen, Rutty et al far down there.  I've even been watching our pseudo CDN Keeper Vaikala.  I havnt seen Dunn on the field with the first team, you have me beaten there.  When was that??

My response is almost any young prospect is going to be behind and it'll take some time to get used to the speed of the new level of play.  In fact we have seen plenty of vets coming off injuries look exactly the same. My gripe and I guess this is where i differ from you is that 80min doled out over a handful of 10-15min apperances doesnt seem to be enough to let him get integrated.  And again...no one is expecting him to get 15 starts.....we all understand bringing a kid along slowly. But if TFCs own hype machine is correct (about the potential) and with the season in the toilet they could give him a full half or god forbid a start to see what he does.   And all development aside, the other TFC players they run out instead of Rutty dont play any better and dont have any impact on the game either.  

And if we are talking about coaches with no clue..which one of these geniuses has been giving Endoh games instead of Shaff??  Who thought it would be a good idea to sign Dwyer???  I dont think these coaches are infaliable. 

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1 hour ago, Bison44 said:

Yes, and I try to take notice as TFC is usually so bad this year and I have watched a lot of TFC2 to see how Nelsen, Rutty et al far down there.  I've even been watching our pseudo CDN Keeper Vaikala.  I havnt seen Dunn on the field with the first team, you have me beaten there.  When was that??

My response is almost any young prospect is going to be behind and it'll take some time to get used to the speed of the new level of play.  In fact we have seen plenty of vets coming off injuries look exactly the same. My gripe and I guess this is where i differ from you is that 80min doled out over a handful of 10-15min apperances doesnt seem to be enough to let him get integrated.  And again...no one is expecting him to get 15 starts.....we all understand bringing a kid along slowly. But if TFCs own hype machine is correct (about the potential) and with the season in the toilet they could give him a full half or god forbid a start to see what he does.   And all development aside, the other TFC players they run out instead of Rutty dont play any better and dont have any impact on the game either.  

And if we are talking about coaches with no clue..which one of these geniuses has been giving Endoh games instead of Shaff??  Who thought it would be a good idea to sign Dwyer???  I dont think these coaches are infaliable. 

I stand corrected on Dunn. Looks like he’s been battling injuries for the better part of of this year but has at times been eligible to play. So my assessment was (mistakenly) based off prior performance and not this year. Fair game to point out plenty could have changed since then and he deserves a shot. 

I think if TFC deserve to be ripped for anything it’s hyping up JMR to start the year. That was a dumb move and short sighted by the front office.

We’ll see what comes next but I would suspect these 15-20 minute appearances turn into something more meaningful. I don’t think these stints are really being given with the expectation that he showcase his talent. I think it’s more so about getting him on the field in a pro game just to get a taste of what’s required so when the day comes when he’s got the physical tools to keep up  he’s got less to worry about.

i won’t argue TFC has fielded guys who haven’t contributed. But let’s remember this was a tire fire of a team only a month or two ago and normally any manager will turn to vets to try and steady the ship. All else equal they have the physical tools to keep up with play. My honest assessment of JMR is that he’s scratching just to keep his head above water against guys who already have 70 minutes of field time. That’s just where he is in terms of his physical development.

You don’t want to “Doniel Henry” him and have JMR flail around out there, developing bad habits that stick later on in his career.

Edited by ag futbol
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