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Jahkeele Marshall-Rutty


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2 hours ago, Sal333 said:

Isn't that what TFC  is doing? Finishing at the bottom. How much worse would it have been if they played the young Canadian talent? Last place instead of 2nd last?

 

Compare that with CF MTL. They have 6 and sometimes 7 young Canadian players each game and none of them have the talent and promise that TFC's players "had". And last I checked they were in the top 7 teams.

BUT THEY DID PLAY young canadian talent this year.  Were you guys not watching the first half of the season?   Before his injury,  Priso had accumulated some 700 minutes of playing time.  Should they trott him out there for 100 minutes a game?  Should they force Rutty out there on the pitch at the age 16?  Whats that going to accomplish?   How much playing time for canadian is enough?  They played the teenagers early on in the season and lost by some lofty scores like 7-1.   Is that good for their developement? 
 

Maybe, just maybe they are just not ready.  That wouldnt be unusual for teenagers.  We might have said the same about someone like Tajon Buchanan several years ago.  

Edited by Free kick
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3 minutes ago, Free kick said:

BUT THEY DID PLAY young canadian talent this year.  Were you guys not watching the first half of the season?   Before his injury,  Priso had accumulated some 700 minutes of playing time.  Should they trott him out there for 100 minutes a game?  Should they force Rutty out there on the pitch at the age 16?  Whats that going to accomplish?   How much playing time for canadian is enough?  They played the teenagers early on in the season and lost by some lofty scores like 7-1.   Is that good for their developement? 
 

Maybe, just maybe they are just not ready. What do you do then?  

Now, you're contradicting yourself. In your previous post you claimed TFC shouldn't sacrifice placing in the standings just to play young Canadian talent but now you claim they did play their Canadian talent.

I'm a CF MTL fan but when I look at your pool of young Canucks my mouth salivates yet it's CF MTL that starts every game with 5 to 7 Canadians.

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27 minutes ago, Free kick said:

What are you basing this on?   Do you have supporting evidence or alternatives ideas?  What would you have done?  I get frustrated when i keep reading this stuff: “TFC is ruining young players”. Or “TFC is not providing playing time for young”.  Or “TFC is favouring americans”.  Etc etc 

Is the suggestion to throw out there teenagers to play against men so that the teenager’s confidence gets ruined?  And make the the paying public have to suffer through watching a developement process at the expense of fielding a competitive team and seeing the team finish last?   There are many people who pay to come watch TFC and they are all canadians. 

This re occcurring theme has the semblance of some sort campaign here.  And of hidden agendas.  I might understand  if i this kind stuff came from other Canadian MLS locales but when i hear this from people whose username suggests that that they live in the GtA, its puzzling.   
 

Oh and more important question,  what are the Montreal Impact and Vancouver Whitecaps doing from a developement standpoint that is better than TFC?   Why does TFC get singled out?   

I am not a hater - though I admit some frustration with the handling of youth players.  I think part of the problem (or perceived problem) is that TFC has arguably three of the highest profile “prospects” we have in this country.  Maybe it is just a byproduct of being in the largest media market (with the biggest hype machine) but for a long time, JMR, Nelson and Okello were probably the most anticipated of our next generation of talent that were expected to wow us.  Yet so far, none of them have taken that next step.  Amd from the outside looking in, we see them not getting first team games (generally - they have gotten some minutes), not getting beneficial loan moves, and bouncing around between the fringe of the first team and TFC2.  

All of this may be a result of us having unrealistic expectations about them.  But at the end of the day, it seems like TFC isn’t generating the kind of prospects - and graduating them into successful pros - at the rate we had hoped.  

In fairness, Ralph Priso may have been the surprise package that started to turn this around.  Before his injury he was given consistent playing time and was performing quite well.  

Anyway, just trying to explain what I see as some of the thinking without framing it like an attack.  

Edited by dyslexic nam
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2 hours ago, Sal333 said:

Now, you're contradicting yourself. In your previous post you claimed TFC shouldn't sacrifice placing in the standings just to play young Canadian talent but now you claim they did play their Canadian talent.

I'm a CF MTL fan but when I look at your pool of young Canucks my mouth salivates yet it's CF MTL that starts every game with 5 to 7 Canadians.

No i am not contradicting myself.   I will admit it if i do. 

Edited by Free kick
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2 hours ago, dyslexic nam said:

I am not a hater - though I admit some frustration with the handling of youth players.  I think part of the problem (or perceived problem) is that TFC has arguably three of the highest profile “prospects” we have in this country.  Maybe it is just a byproduct of being in the largest media market (with the biggest hype machine) but for a long time, JMR, Nelson and Okello were probably the most anticipated of our next generation of talent that were expected to wow us.  Yet so far, none of them have taken that next step.  Amd from the outside looking in, we see them not getting first team games (generally - they have gotten some minutes), not getting beneficial loan moves, and bouncing around between the fringe of the first team and TFC2.  

All of this may be a result of us having unrealistic expectations about them.  But at the end of the day, it seems like TFC isn’t generating the kind of prospects - and graduating them into successful pros - at the rate we had hoped.  

In fairness, Ralph Priso may have been the surprise package that started to turn this around.  Before his in just the was given consistent playing time and was performing quite well.  

Anyway, just trying to explain what I see as some of the thinking without framing it like an attack.  
 


 

 

Thank you for the well reason explanation.  I can live with this.   
 

what i cant live with, when it comes to this topic,  is the constant unsubstantiated  and unsuppport claims that border on (quite honnestly) xenophobia.    No matter how hard i look,  for canadian players,  TFC have actaully done better than Vancouver and Montreal.  But they (Van & Mtl) never get mentioned or criticized for anything in relation to player development.

edit:  also, you have to consider maybe those guys like Okello, nelson and jMR. Are just not ready to be playing professional minutes.   This doent mean that they cant be great players eventaully.  JMH may in fact turn out to be a superstar.  But how many players around the world are playing on the first team and starting at that age.

Edited by Free kick
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9 minutes ago, Free kick said:

Thank you for the well reason explanation.  I can live with this.   
 

what i cant live with, when it comes to this topic,  is teh constant unsubstantiated  and unsuppport claim that boarder on (quite honnestly) xenophobia.    No matter how hard i look,  for canadian players,  TFC have actaully done better than Vancouver and Montreal.  But they (Van & Mtl) never get mentioned or criticized for anything in relation to player development.

Montreal has been roasted in the past. They also get clowned for not being able to develop a proper homegrown striker since AJH.

However they are currently giving a lot of time to Canadians and all of their really young crop are all not even 20 yet and are getting minutes elsewhere so we can't really complain too much.

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4 minutes ago, VinceA said:

Montreal has been roasted in the past. They also get clowned for not being able to develop a proper homegrown striker since AJH.

However they are currently giving a lot of time to Canadians and all of their really young crop are all not even 20 yet and are getting minutes elsewhere so we can't really complain too much.

From their academy,  they have produced nothing that has stuck.  ZBG might be the exception.  All the other canadians have basically been acquired through trade and transfer. 
the whitecaps won the lottery with DAVIES.  But beyond that? 

 

Edited by Free kick
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37 minutes ago, Sal333 said:

Isn't that what TFC  is doing? Finishing at the bottom. How much worse would it have been if they played the young Canadian talent? Last place instead of 2nd last?

 

Compare that with CF MTL. They have 6 and sometimes 7 young Canadian players each game and none of them have the talent and promise that TFC's players "had". And last I checked they were in the top 7 teams.

Montreal’s done well integrating Canadians this season but let’s not pretend like that’s always been the case.

Additionally, none of Montreal’s Canadian regulars are 17 years old like JMR. Add in Nelson (18), Priso (19), Okello (21) and Akinola (21), and all of TFC’s best young prospects are, in fact, younger than all of Montreal’s, some by several years.

@Free kickis correct that Vancouver and Montreal tend to get much more of a pass than Toronto does on this subject in here, I’ve mentioned it myself before.

Another thing I’ve mentioned is that, despite all the flack TFC takes for not developing or featuring enough Canadian talent, TFC has generally had its players receive more minutes during this current MNT campaign (mostly via Osorio and Laryea) than the two other MLS clubs.

 

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Another good example of failure from development side.   Has Montreal’s handling of Balou tabla’s developemt been examplary?   I would say defeinitely no.   They moved him up too quickly,   They sold him too quickly,  they didnt let him mature properly.    Etc etc.   that too is an example of ruining a talented player.

 

edit:  of of the young canucks i have seen,  Balou tabla is the most talented (other than davies). I have seen.   Better than any of the TFC kids we saw this year.   But how have they handled him?   How is that an example of good player development?

Edited by Free kick
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6 minutes ago, Free kick said:

From their academy,  they have produced nothing that has stuck.  ZBG might be the exception.  All the other canadians have basically been acquired through trade and transfer. 
the whitecaps won the lottery with DAVIES.  But beyond that? 

 

ZBG is not a Montreal academy product.

I do give IMFC/CFM credit for bringing him over and helping make him into the player he is now, though. That was the kind of low-risk/high-reward gamble that pays off for smart clubs.

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2 minutes ago, Dominic94 said:

TFC can’t evaluate talent, so the question of wether the kids are or were actually ready is a good one ? Fraser was clearly ready at 23…. But was he ready sooner ? Shaffleburg looks ready now, was he ready earlier ? I think so. What about the others ?

Wow.  How do you know:

that shaffelburg was ready before he was called up.  
the Fraser was ready before he was 23.  
 

again, alot of unsubstantiated claims 

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I think with this current iteration of TFC everyone's chief complaint is that Ali Curtis arrived preaching playing the young kids and they've still gone out of their way to play veterans who have been absolute garbage all year. In the past, it's been stomachable that the young guys were pushed aside because the team was having success, but there have been decisions to start veterans that have done nothing beneficial over young guys that we all want to see get an opportunity  

If Curtis showed up and never claimed to love our prospects, I think we're still frustrated, but not as openly frustrated as we are now because he promised them lots of opportunity

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30 minutes ago, Free kick said:

BUT THEY DID PLAY young canadian talent this year.  Were you guys not watching the first half of the season?   Before his injury,  Priso had accumulated some 700 minutes of playing time.  Should they trott him out there for 100 minutes a game?  Should they force Rutty out there on the pitch at the age 16?  Whats that going to accomplish?   How much playing time for canadian is enough?  They played the teenagers early on in the season and lost by some lofty scores like 7-1.   Is that good for their developement? 
 

Maybe, just maybe they are just not ready.  That wouldnt be unusual for teenagers.  We might have said the same about someone like Tajon Buchanan several years ago.  What do you do then?  

Totally agree. Is there anything about JMR right now that says he should be playing 90? If anything it’s the opposite and TFC is playing him not based on the merit of his performances but rather because they believe in the long run potential.

He’s a teenager and one with out the freakish athletic gifts needed to play with men at an yearly age.
 

Throwing kids on the field is not a panacea for development.

 

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32 minutes ago, dyslexic nam said:

I am not a hater - though I admit some frustration with the handling of youth players.  I think part of the problem (or perceived problem) is that TFC has arguably three of the highest profile “prospects” we have in this country.  Maybe it is just a byproduct of being in the largest media market (with the biggest hype machine) but for a long time, JMR, Nelson and Okello were probably the most anticipated of our next generation of talent that were expected to wow us.  Yet so far, none of them have taken that next step.  Amd from the outside looking in, we see them not getting first team games (generally - they have gotten some minutes), not getting beneficial loan moves, and bouncing around between the fringe of the first team and TFC2.  

All of this may be a result of us having unrealistic expectations about them.  But at the end of the day, it seems like TFC isn’t generating the kind of prospects - and graduating them into successful pros - at the rate we had hoped.  

In fairness, Ralph Priso may have been the surprise package that started to turn this around.  Before his injury he was given consistent playing time and was performing quite well.  

Anyway, just trying to explain what I see as some of the thinking without framing it like an attack.  

Also more of the JMR hype machine was actually coming from outside Canada. It when he was attached to some of biggest clubs in Europe. Maybe those expectations are unrealistic considering it all. I suspect there may have been some agent work done too to build up the hype as it still exists to some extent now as evident by him being on the Guardians Top 60 list this week, you do not show up on something like that for no reason. The big thing now is that he has to step up and get regular minutes for this to go anywhere from both a national teal and/or club standpoint. 

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58 minutes ago, Free kick said:

What are you basing this on?   Do you have supporting evidence or alternatives ideas?  What would you have done?  I get frustrated when i keep reading this stuff: “TFC is ruining young players”. Or “TFC is not providing playing time for young”.  Or “TFC is favouring americans”.  Etc etc 

Is the suggestion to throw out there teenagers to play against men so that the teenager’s confidence gets ruined?  And make the the paying public have to suffer through watching a developement process at the expense of fielding a competitive team and seeing the team finish last?   There are many people who pay to come watch TFC and they are all canadians. 

This re occcurring theme has the semblance of some sort campaign here.  And of hidden agendas.  I might understand  if i this kind stuff came from other Canadian MLS locales but when i hear this from people whose username suggests that that they live in the GtA, its puzzling.   
 

Oh and more important question,  what are the Montreal Impact and Vancouver Whitecaps doing from a developement standpoint that is better than TFC?   Why does TFC get singled out?   

It’s funny how you start off your reply with “what are you basing this on?” when the evidence that TFC cannot develop talent is sitting in front of our faces… with so few of the Academy players ever making it as regulars in the entire history of the franchise.  And to add, we see former Academy players, or ones that were cut / not make it at younger age groups go on to succeed elsewhere.

 

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11 minutes ago, ag futbol said:

Totally agree. Is there anything about JMR right now that says he should be playing 90? If anything it’s the opposite and TFC is playing him not based on the merit of his performances but rather because they believe in the long run potential.

He’s a teenager and one with out the freakish athletic gifts needed to play with men at an yearly age.
 

Throwing kids on the field is not a panacea for development.

 

A lot of the vets have been trotted out continuously regardless of form. Why not give young players more experience? Mistakes and blunders for vets aren't really punished. If it was a well oiled machine like past teams then breaking in needs to be based off merit. Right now the season is lost and it should be about evaluating talent for next year. Maybe some of these young players will show enough that they can be of use next year? 

If TFC is too high a level then they should utilize the loan system better. Don't think TFC 2 at USL 1 is the answer. 

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49 minutes ago, Free kick said:

edit:  also, you have to consider maybe those guys like Okello, nelson and jMR. Are just not ready to be playing professional minutes.   This doent mean that they cant be great players eventaully.  JMH may in fact turn out to be a superstar.  But how many players around the world are playing on the first team and starting at that age.

But I think this is part of the legitimate criticism.  If in fact they aren’t ready for the big stage, then loan them out where they will get a full season of competitive minimizes in an environment that will maximize their development.  It is generally accepted that training with the first team is good, but playing a season at a challenging (but suitable) level is better.  It is why we are all happy to see Miller go on loan and succeed, or make a move (even if to a club far below Liverpool) and thrive.  It is also why we were happy Okello managed to get single loan spell and did well.  

If TFC doesn’t see these kids in their plans, then they should be moved elsewhere to maximize their development.  And it seems clear that the club really doesn’t see them as viable first teamers yet.  Their season has been a complete shitshow and yet they are still holding onto these kids rather than getting them minutes elsewhere.  I have no doubt whatsoever that all 3 would be impact players in CPL for example.  So why not loan them out and give them that price experience. Because every year lost is a missed opportunity.

EDIT:  and FWIW, I totally agree on Tabla.   Entirely poor handling that has contributed to a lot of wasted potential (unless he can really turn things around in a huge way).  

Edited by dyslexic nam
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1 hour ago, TOcanadafan said:

It’s funny how you start off your reply with “what are you basing this on?” when the evidence that TFC cannot develop talent is sitting in front of our faces… with so few of the Academy players ever making it as regulars in the entire history of the franchise.  And to add, we see former Academy players, or ones that were cut / not make it at younger age groups go on to succeed elsewhere.

 

Ok. If its in front of my eyes then show my what is in front of my eyes and show me how it was done better in Vancouver and Montreal.  
 

you make all these claims like:” with so few of the Academy players ever making it as regulars in the entire history of the franchise“.  Thats all relative.  How have Vancouver and Montreal done better in this regard.  What would conistitude a sufficiant number in your eyes?   what about all the starter on the NT from Toronto fC,  did they not have hand in their development. 

as for”former Academy players, or ones that were cut / not make it at younger age groups go on to succeed elsewhere.”  why is that a bad thing to see academy developemd players succeed elsewhere.  Would it be better if they didnt succeed elsewhere? 

again.  I will reiterate.  What and Montreal and Vancouver doing better from a developemnt standpoint to warrant 0% of the criticism as opposed to TFC’s 100% of the critcism.

 

Edited by Free kick
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2 minutes ago, dyslexic nam said:

But I think this is part of the legitimate criticism.  If in fact they aren’t ready for the big stage, then loan them out where they will get a full season of competitive minimizes in an environment that will maximize their development.  It is generally accepted that training with the first team is good, but playing a season at a challenging (but suitable) level is better.  It is why we are all happy to see Miller go on loan and succeed, or make a move (even if to a club far below Liverpool) and thrive.  It is also why we were happy Okello managed to get single loan spell and did well.  

If TFC doesn’t see these kids in their plans, then they should be moved elsewhere to maximize their development.  

Yes, That there is problem.  But what would be a good competitive level to get loaned to?   I dont feel that there is such place in North america.

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TFC has had the most success of the 3 CAN MLS teams. Why can't we as TFC fans expect more? Set the standard that the other teams want to mimic. Not settle for being average. They get more criticism because the expectations are higher and I think that is a good thing. They have massive resources, giant scouting area and should be a model franchise in player development from TFC 3 to TFC 2 and to the first team. 

TFC's latest history has all been about ambition, generally with spending big money of DP's. If the can get their player pathway sorted out watch out. 

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1 minute ago, canuckgbp said:

A lot of the vets have been trotted out continuously regardless of form. Why not give young players more experience? Mistakes and blunders for vets aren't really punished. If it was a well oiled machine like past teams then breaking in needs to be based off merit. Right now the season is lost and it should be about evaluating talent for next year. Maybe some of these young players will show enough that they can be of use next year? 

If TFC is too high a level then they should utilize the loan system better. Don't think TFC 2 at USL 1 is the answer. 

A lot of vets had bad seasons, sure. But it doesn’t mean throwing on a yet-to-physically-mature 16 year old kid is warranted.

I think people are taking their historical assumptions about TFC and youth development and blankety thinking this has to apply to 1) what the club has done this year 2) the case of JMR specifically. 

I would counter: 1) they actually have handled JMR fairly well / nobody should feel agree aggrieved outside of maybe giving him too much hype  2) there have been plenty of minutes for youth players this year and those that have performed were given more time, even if that was not the case historically 3) if there is anything you can still critique the club on it’s getting players READY for the first team. Tactically some of these guys look clueless (to be clear, not putting JMR in that category) and giving them minutes when they don’t have the prerequisites, isn’t going to help.

 

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9 minutes ago, Free kick said:

Yes, That there is problem.  But what would be a good competitive level to get loaned to?   I dont feel that there is such place in North america.

Not sure I agree.  CPL is a good level of play.  It isn’t perfect, but the guys have a great level of fitness, they would generally be battling against experienced men, and the quality of play is generally viewed as a respectable level.  I think they could all thrive in that environment.  

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1 minute ago, dyslexic nam said:

Not sure I agree.  CPL is a good level of play.  It isn’t perfect, but the guys have a great level of fitness, they would generally be battling against experienced men, and the quality of play is generally viewed as a respectable level.  I think they could all thrive in that environment.  

Yup any of CPL or USL Championship are not bad leagues for these players to go too, it’s still early days for the CPL but USL Championship gave Kaye a few seasons of development and even Pasher who this is when playing and not injured has looked really good for Houston in the MLS so why not loan these players to the CPL or even the USL Championship if you have to, two decent level leagues where these young players can get playing time and develop.

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