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apbsmith

Gold Cup - June 19th 2019 - Canada vs Mexico

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Posted (edited)
36 minutes ago, Floortom said:

In the pregame on TSN, Herdman was interviewed and said that the current squad (vs last gold cup) has a better player pool and a stronger coach lol Zambrano probably saw that and took offence 

I thought he said that as well but he actually said “culture” and not “coach” but I suppose the deeper meaning is the same. 

I wish TSN wasn’t so naive to football.. they should have OZ in studio and a headline that says “FURY OF OZ: EX-CANADA BOSS SOUNDS OFF ON TACTICS AFTER MEXICO LOSS”

Being a football country is right at our doorstep but our media is too incompetent to realize how to harness it.

Cant be too upset at the loss or care what OZ thinks.  This was house money we were playing with.  It means almost nothing.  The Mexicans can be happy they didn’t trip up and feel confident for next time and then we can throw everything at them with higher stakes.

Honestly, Mexico is not a hugely impressive team that is a level above our best XI.  Our best on their best - let’s go, I back our guys.

Edited by CanadaFan123

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4 minutes ago, nolbertos said:

Well thats 1 strike for me against Herdman.  He failed the Mexico test, even Benito Floro would’ve grinded a 0-0 result.  Herdman is being judged by me on the Hex competition, not Pre-Hex round where we always end up.  If as expected we beat Cuba, then Costa Rica QF match, then that’s Test No. 2.  If we botch that up, then Herdman is in a worse place than Zambrano, because he has more young upcoming talent at his disposal compared to what Floro and Zambrano had.  This Gold Cup is telling us so far that we only have 5-6 calibre starters, the rest are hope for the best.

Trust me, if Floro could have grinded his way to a 0-0 result against Mexico, he would have done so. He had two chances and lost by a combined score of 5-0.

This was neither pass or fail, it was experimentation. Whether this was the right time to do so is up for debate, but I was fine with it.

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10 minutes ago, Obinna said:

Trust me, if Floro could have grinded his way to a 0-0 result against Mexico, he would have done so. He had two chances and lost by a combined score of 5-0.

This was neither pass or fail, it was experimentation. Whether this was the right time to do so is up for debate, but I was fine with it.

Tactics were wrong (horrible for first 60min), player selection was wrong. 

Bigger picture is clear but would have like to put a better foot forward for this match. 

 

 

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3 minutes ago, Obinna said:

Trust me, if Floro could have grinded his way to a 0-0 result against Mexico, he would have done so. He had two chances and lost by a combined score of 5-0.

This was neither pass or fail, it was experimentation. Whether this was the right time to do so is up for debate, but I was fine with it.

Still not sold on Herdman, but I give him props for his strategic approach to developing this team, especially in how he handled squad rotation and tactics last night. I think he got it mostly right from a strategic perspective. Only time will tell, of course, but I strongly suspect that last night's experimentation and challenge against a very tough opponent will advance our program more significantly than any other thing that has happened since Herdman took the reins. For once we have a truly strategic manager, which should bode well for us over the next several years. Herdman, much like MDS, are process-driven dudes. They are all about constant growth, constant learning, constant improvement. I still question whether he has the tactical chops, but he is a quick learner and has surrounded himself with some decent football minds. We need to be patient. This was the first real test we've had, and we learned a ton!! We need to focus on Cuba, rest some guys, then get prepared for (likely) Costa Rica.  I am excited to see how we carry all this learning and growing confidence into that QF match. That will be the next real test. 

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8 minutes ago, hamiltonfan said:

Tactics were wrong (horrible for first 60min), player selection was wrong. 

Bigger picture is clear but would have like to put a better foot forward for this match. 

 

 

I would argue that Herdman achieved exactly what he wanted, which was to rotate the squad and keep the game within reach until he could bring on some of our big guns.

I was impressed by the discipline, fitness and commitment of our guys to keep the defensive shape in the first half. That said, I think KJ was right in that Larin left ZBG with a lot to do defensively. I doubt we will see Larin in this role much in the future.

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11 hours ago, spitfire said:

Troll much?!?

You want to play your best 11 in a group game against top level opponent for what purpose to feel good that we can!? I would much rather beat them in the semis when it matters...

and im a football genius .... 

nice goal...

How is he trolling? You've made so many ridiculous statements but he's the one trolling? 

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I wasn't sure about Osorio after the first game but man did he ever put in a great shift.

Also I don't think it's a coincidence that the two guys most familiar with playing in Mexico (Oso and Cav) were two of our best players. Exposure to these leagues and players goes a long way.

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Posted (edited)
47 minutes ago, nolbertos said:

even Benito Floro would’ve grinded a 0-0 result

He would have failed. You make it sounds so easy...

Seriously, if there are things to take away from this experiment is that you dont sit down defending because they eventually break your defense 

The other thing is that if you press their defense, they prove vulnerable and make mistakes to exploit.

Lesson is, you got to take it to them, not park the bus

 

Edited by Ansem

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1 hour ago, VinceA said:

 

Cheeky line, but I'm still going to save my judgement on Herdman until the end of the tournament.

OZ was a stepping stone but he was not our savior by any means.

OZ had us playing attractive footy,  helped springboard Cav's & MAK's club career and got us out of a tough Gold Cup group stage.

What I do remember from a critical standpoint about 2017 Gold Cup though Re:OZ

1) Honduras & CRC were 100% more focused on WCQ in 2017, as admirable as the two ties in groupt stage were, Honduras barely cared about the 2017 Gold Cup (at least in my eyes).

2) Half our team looked absolutely gassed in the QFs against Jamaica, felt only Hoilett  showed up.

3) OZ made a massive error by starting Vitoria and Jakovic at CB vs Jamaica's speed before subbing in James after both goals, especially since both were already fatigued after the group stage. His decision starting those two lack of pace CB's ultimately costs us the match, especially with Jamaica scoring 5 mins in. When James came in, in the 2nd half, I don't think Jamaica had another shot or counter.

I'll save my judgment regarding Herdman until after the tourny is done.

 

 

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11 hours ago, spitfire said:

Again clueless ever heard of sarcasm?

Seriously let’s give Lofty the national team job!!!!

he’d do Soo much better.

I love these armchair never actually coached or played at any level thinking fans they know more then people who get paid to do the job...

i have an UEFA A license played professionally and coached professionally and I dont pretend to know have as much as you do...I’m done 

Glad you're finally done because you've been spewing some serious nonsense and I don't have an UEFA A license nor have I coached or played professionally(well not soccer anyways) but I can see what Herdman is doing. You and everyone that thinks a result here and now against  Mexico is more important than the long term goals of this squad are just laughable.

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“I think as a measuring stick, we were able to see 21- and 19-year-old players with no experience against this type of opposition, and living there,” Canada manager John Herdman said postgame. “Living against their $35 million-dollar players. Tonight was real learning for those guys.”

Can anyone tell me where/who these $35 million dollar players were? 

Mexico is good but why do we have to exaggerate so much?  You would think we were playing Argentina.  

In fact, the two of the three most valuable players last night in terms of market value were both CANADIAN.  We need to get that though our heads and respect our opponents but not build them up.  According to transfermarket they had one guy worth anywhere near the number Herdman threw out - Raul Jimenez.

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3 minutes ago, apbsmith said:

Cheeky line, but I'm still going to save my judgement on Herdman until the end of the tournament.

OZ was a stepping stone but he was not our savior by any means.

OZ had us playing attractive footy,  helped springboard Cav's & MAK's club career and got us out of a tough Gold Cup group stage.

What I do remember from a critical standpoint about 2017 Gold Cup though Re:OZ

1) Honduras & CRC were 100% more focused on WCQ in 2017, as admirable as the two ties in groupt stage were, Honduras barely cared about the 2017 Gold Cup (at least in my eyes).

2) Half our team looked absolutely gassed in the QFs against Jamaica, felt only Hoilett  showed up.

3) OZ made a massive error by starting Vitoria and Jakovic at CB vs Jamaica's speed before subbing in James after both goals, especially since both were already fatigued after the group stage. His decision starting those two lack of pace CB's ultimately costs us the match, especially with Jamaica scoring 5 mins in. When James came in, in the 2nd half, I don't think Jamaica had another shot or counter.

I'll save my judgment regarding Herdman until after the tourny is done.

 

 

Makes you wonder what this team would look like under Zambrano. Judging from that comment, he would have gone all out against Mexico in this one. I could see us shocking Mexico under OZ in this game, only for Tata and Mexico to figure us out in the semifinal.

Now let's be clear, Martino is a world class coach and may figure us out anyways, but he has a lot less high quality data to analyze since Herdman only gave him a taste. This is what I appreciate about Herdman's approach.

Even if we make it deep and fall to Mexico again, at least Herdman's intent was there for all to see. He's playing the long game and that is very refreshing to see at the very least.

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I've always been a fan of Osorio but I've also said I think he can contribute just as well coming off the bench.  With all the central midfielders we have, I absolutely don't mind having him come off the bench in big games.

FYI - Our last results vs Mexico have all been similar scorelines.  3-0, 2-0, 2-0.  Unsurprising that we finally scored in this game and could have had a few more.  If you are naive and look strictly at scorelines to judge, then you would think that we had not improved much at all.  But that's not how to interpret all games.  The last 30 minutes of this game (which we all know is more realistic of our true starting lineup) was the best I've seen Canada play Mexico in over a decade.

I didn't agree with the lineup and tactics this game but felt very positive with the way we ended that game.

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14 minutes ago, longlugan said:

Glad you're finally done because you've been spewing some serious nonsense and I don't have an UEFA A license nor have I coached or played professionally(well not soccer anyways) but I can see what Herdman is doing. You and everyone that thinks a result here and now against  Mexico is more important than the long term goals of this squad are just laughable.

He was arguing that we shouldn’t show our best players against Mexico in the group game. 

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Posted (edited)
15 minutes ago, CanadaFan123 said:

“I think as a measuring stick, we were able to see 21- and 19-year-old players with no experience against this type of opposition, and living there,” Canada manager John Herdman said postgame. “Living against their $35 million-dollar players. Tonight was real learning for those guys.”

Can anyone tell me where/who these $35 million dollar players were? 

Mexico is good but why do we have to exaggerate so much?  You would think we were playing Argentina.  

In fact, the two of the three most valuable players last night in terms of market value were both CANADIAN.  We need to get that though our heads and respect our opponents but not build them up.  According to transfermarket they had one guy worth anywhere near the number Herdman threw out - Raul Jimenez.

That number is only accurate if he's referring to the half a dozen European based players not in their squad for this tournament.  6 of their 7 highest market value are not in this squad but only one tops 35M and Raul is not too far behind that figure.

Lozano 36m, Raul 32m, Herrera 20m, Tecatito 20m, Lainez 13m, Vela 11m, Chicharito 11m

Edited by Corazon

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Posted (edited)
26 minutes ago, CanadaFan123 said:

“I think as a measuring stick, we were able to see 21- and 19-year-old players with no experience against this type of opposition, and living there,” Canada manager John Herdman said postgame. “Living against their $35 million-dollar players. Tonight was real learning for those guys.”

Can anyone tell me where/who these $35 million dollar players were? 

Mexico is good but why do we have to exaggerate so much?  You would think we were playing Argentina.  

In fact, the two of the three most valuable players last night in terms of market value were both CANADIAN.  We need to get that though our heads and respect our opponents but not build them up.  According to transfermarket they had one guy worth anywhere near the number Herdman threw out - Raul Jimenez.

Haha typical John Herdman, always good for stretching the truth to illustrate his point.

The point shouldn't get lost in the exaggeration though, because his point was a good one. This was a very good Mexican team. Am I the only one impressed by how good they were last night?

The scary thing about Mexico is their depth. They can be played through if we are brave, but with the ball they are incredible to watch and deserving of their FIFA ranking.

If anything, they are underrated in my eyes and they are probably wishing they were in Copa America instead, because the struggles of Argentina and Brazil are making it a wide open tournament this year.

I have watched a few games and this Mexican team would be a title contender down there.

Their results since Tata took over are:

Mexico 3 Chile 1

Mexico 4 Paraguay 2

Mexico 3 Venezuela 1

Mexico 3 Ecuador 2

Mexico 7 Cuba 0

Mexico 3 Canada 1

All games were played in the US, so essentially they are home games, but regardless, considering their other results they would have probably beaten the Canada of old by 4 goals.

If we put up a fight similar to Paraguay, Venezuela and Chile, without even playing a first choice starting 11, it is safe to say we have improved and things are trending in the right direction!

Edited by Obinna

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45 minutes ago, longlugan said:

Glad you're finally done because you've been spewing some serious nonsense and I don't have an UEFA A license nor have I coached or played professionally(well not soccer anyways) but I can see what Herdman is doing. You and everyone that thinks a result here and now against  Mexico is more important than the long term goals of this squad are just laughable.

You are in the minority here I suspect, you don't have to agree with everything everyone posts on here but it is a forum where differences of opinion are to be expected and in fact encouraged! I find it somewhat pathetic that a couple of posters have pissed off a guy who obviously has a bit more inside knowledge of the team in general than any of us ever will to the point he is done with this forum! A little respect goes a long way, I don't think that is too much to ask of anyone, at the end of the day we are all Canadian soccer fans, this is not just referring to you btw!

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Posted (edited)
55 minutes ago, Obinna said:

Makes you wonder what this team would look like under Zambrano. Judging from that comment, he would have gone all out against Mexico in this one. I could see us shocking Mexico under OZ in this game, only for Tata and Mexico to figure us out in the semifinal.

Yup, and if we got a result last night Martino would have likely said something along the lines of:

"Respect to Canada on their performance but let's remember our goal is to win the Gold Cup. The group stage is just a warm-up for us, we will see what happens if and when we play Canada when the game matters in the KO round."

Sure he would have taken some criticism, but whatever the result it would not have been a life changer for him, based on the circumstances of the game. 

Edited by apbsmith

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1 hour ago, lazlo_80 said:

I wasn't sure about Osorio after the first game but man did he ever put in a great shift.

Also I don't think it's a coincidence that the two guys most familiar with playing in Mexico (Oso and Cav) were two of our best players. Exposure to these leagues and players goes a long way

Yeah I was critical of Osorio in game one but he was totally unfazed by Mexico's press, moved the ball fast, and pulled off a couple good dribbles. He can elevate his game to this level when needed.

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15 minutes ago, gator said:

You are in the minority here I suspect, you don't have to agree with everything everyone posts on here but it is a forum where differences of opinion are to be expected and in fact encouraged! I find it somewhat pathetic that a couple of posters have pissed off a guy who obviously has a bit more inside knowledge of the team in general than any of us ever will to the point he is done with this forum! A little respect goes a long way, I don't think that is too much to ask of anyone, at the end of the day we are all Canadian soccer fans, this is not just referring to you btw!

I appreciate what you're saying and my goal is not to discourage opinions but at the same time if said person is butthurt because people don't agree with him well that's not my problem. Personally I don't care who's dad he is, even though I am very happy for his son's development and future potential and will cheer for him just like all our other players. But for him to question the head coach of our national team program and then to justify it by citing his own credentials makes me laugh and warrants the response he got. Stop thinking you're better and smarter than everyone and enjoy the process our national team is going through...the long term goal is not Gold Cup 2019 but Qatar 2022.

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Posted (edited)
6 minutes ago, longlugan said:

I appreciate what you're saying and my goal is not to discourage opinions but at the same time if said person is butthurt because people don't agree with him well that's not my problem. Personally I don't care who's dad he is, even though I am very happy for his son's development and future potential and will cheer for him just like all our other players. But for him to question the head coach of our national team program and then to justify it by citing his own credentials makes me laugh and warrants the response he got. Stop thinking you're better and smarter than everyone and enjoy the process our national team is going through...the long term goal is not Gold Cup 2019 but Qatar 2022.

The thing is a lot of people agree with him and with that he has knowledge and experience in the professional game to know what he’s talking about. You don’t have to agree with him but you also don’t have to be an a-hole to him when rebutting his points. The goal right now is to succeed in the gold cup not to think about wcq. We got to take this process one step at a time and right now are number one priority should be to make the semi finals and possibly the final of the gold cup.

Edited by SkuseisLoose

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After watching Kaye in midfield, I really think he needs to play there from now on. He would be our top midfielder if he can just sharpen up his pass accuracy and get some consistency there. Bob Bradley has been working on that with him at LAFC.

That leaves left back vacant. It is a real shame we don't have a high level player there. Davies and Kaye can both put in a shift there, but one is still green (18 yrs old) while the other is serviceable, but not great in the position. Nice to know either can step in if needed though.

Sadly however, I don't think Adekugbe is better than either, but I think he represents our best hope to fill that position while freeing up Davies and Kaye. Sam just needs to keep working and getting better and make another step up when/if he outgrows Valerenga.

As for Cordova, who I like, I need to see more of him because it has been a while now. Like Auro, I have concerns about his athleticism, but he seems to have the football IQ and technical ability to be good there for us. I hope him and Sam are our LB's in nations league.

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3 minutes ago, SkuseisLoose said:

The thing is a lot of people agree with him and with that he has knowledge and experience in the professional game to know what he’s talking about. You don’t have to agree with him but you also don’t have to be an a-hole to him when rebutting his points. The goal right now is to succeed in the gold cup not to think about wcq. We got to take this process one step at a time and right now are number one priority should be to make the semi finals and possibly the final of the gold cup.

You're right...my rebuttal was harsh...my apologies to Spitfire.

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