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Duane Rollins

Under 23 qualifying roster speculation

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48 minutes ago, Obinna said:

But consider what would happen if we won a medal but failed to qualify for the world cup. Would all of that credibility evaporate?

 

Some would, no doubt, but not all credibility would evaporate.  Because 75% of those "new found fans" from any sort of Olympic success would have no idea that world cup qualification was happening.  Because of the relative ignorance of Canadian soccer in Canada, there are only two tournaments that anyone would pay attention to in which Canada could compete: the World Cup and the Olympics.  Otherwise, the Canadian team is made up of a bunch of scrubs that play in Tier IV leagues around the world.  It is expected that Canada would not make the World Cup.  It is not expected that Canada would compete on an international stage at any level.

I think medalling in the Olympics would do a helluva lot more for exposure for the program than making a World Cup and crashing out in the group stage.

17 minutes ago, Shway said:

Olympics as we all know it is still considered a youth tournament, where the woman have no age restrictions. 

I think thats the key difference in understanding how the success will/won't penetrate to soccer fans in Canada from the results of the men vs women . The results of the men qualifying for the Olympics, will only solidify the culture shift amongst the players. Getting a medal would get mainstream attention. 

I think you are giving the average soccer viewer too much credit (or I am being too cynical).  The age group thing doesn't factor into it for them.  That gets further muddied when they see the overage players.  All they see is Brazil playing Argentina for a gold medal.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, El Hombre said:

Some would, no doubt, but not all credibility would evaporate.  Because 75% of those "new found fans" from any sort of Olympic success would have no idea that world cup qualification was happening.  Because of the relative ignorance of Canadian soccer in Canada, there are only two tournaments that anyone would pay attention to in which Canada could compete: the World Cup and the Olympics.  Otherwise, the Canadian team is made up of a bunch of scrubs that play in Tier IV leagues around the world.  It is expected that Canada would not make the World Cup.  It is not expected that Canada would compete on an international stage at any level.

I think medalling in the Olympics would do a helluva lot more for exposure for the program than making a World Cup and crashing out in the group stage.

Appreciate the feedback.

Why 75% though? Wouldn't that suggest 3/4 new fans would not be soccer people, since according to you they probably wouldn't be aware of wcq?

My other argument was that Olympics could be particularly important for newbies and less so for the epl-loving average joe soccer fan. Seems like you see it my way.

For the profile of the men's team to grow, I think we need more of that fan to get on board. Soccer is already very popular in Canada, but soccer fans have no time or respect for the national team because we are insignificant on the world stage. If newbies to the sport want to hop on our banwagon, that's certainly fine with me, but I personally think it's the others we must capture in order to elevate the status of our national team.

And I would argue those people, real soccer people (all due respect to newbies), would value getting to the world cup and crashing out over an Olympic medal.

Edited by Obinna

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But consider what would happen if we won a medal but failed to qualify for the world cup. Would all of that credibility evaporate?

 

It might but we probably should start somewhere.  Sending teams missing the best U-20's to the chopping block got us nowhere.  And they could have easily sent them to that qualifier and not hurt the mens team one bit.   Not even qualifying for oylmpics gives u no chance of winning new fans.  And I dont understand how this is a one or the other thing.  Do we know for sure there is going to be conflict?  

As far as Euro snob EPL lovers...they have had ample time and opportunity to get on board.  Crashing out without scoring a goal in the WC wont be good enough for them either.   I think we have a better shot at winning new fans, CDN fans that will root for their home team, to appreciate soccer if something gives them a reason to tune in, ie a mens team at the olympics.  WOW, local Y9 kid Borges scored a goal at the olympics, I might go see a game now.  World cup would do that the best, but the Olympics might be a more attainable goal. 

 

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15 minutes ago, Bison44 said:

But consider what would happen if we won a medal but failed to qualify for the world cup. Would all of that credibility evaporate?

 

It might but we probably should start somewhere.  Sending teams missing the best U-20's to the chopping block got us nowhere.  And they could have easily sent them to that qualifier and not hurt the mens team one bit.   Not even qualifying for oylmpics gives u no chance of winning new fans.  And I dont understand how this is a one or the other thing.  Do we know for sure there is going to be conflict?  

As far as Euro snob EPL lovers...they have had ample time and opportunity to get on board.  Crashing out without scoring a goal in the WC wont be good enough for them either.   I think we have a better shot at winning new fans, CDN fans that will root for their home team, to appreciate soccer if something gives them a reason to tune in, ie a mens team at the olympics.  WOW, local Y9 kid Borges scored a goal at the olympics, I might go see a game now.  World cup would do that the best, but the Olympics might be a more attainable goal. 

 

Well, what can I say? I love your optimism and would love for us to medal at the Olympics and would love for that to create a groundswell of organic support that corresponds to our Canadian premier league players in the way you just described. We all support Canada around here and we all want the best for our national team. I cannot say I wouldn't love that!

It seems you are clearly still upset at our strategy not to call Davies and co. to under 20 qualifying...

My general attitude to that and the upcoming Olympic qualifying (another youth tournament) is that if there is no conflict than sure, let's call them up and get our best eligible to represent us.

But quite often there are varying degrees of conflict which prevent this from happening. Sometimes it may be a very minor conflict, such as a club commitment. Sometimes it may be a larger issue like we saw for the U20 (can't have players with the senior team for nations league qualifying AND the u20 qualifying, unless you wanted to fly them back and forth between camps - which probably wasn't on the table anyways, as that would be an unprecedented move by the csa, not to mention that extra travel is often met with concern for player health).

Either way, I don't know about you, but I actually have belief that we can qualify for the Olympics without Davies and co.

If we do qualify we can have a conversation about putting them inthe Olympics (which I think would be smart of us to do so).

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2 hours ago, Obinna said:

Why 75% though? Wouldn't that suggest 3/4 new fans would not be soccer people, since according to you they probably wouldn't be aware of wcq?

No, that's an incorrect assumption.  I said 75% because I was trying to be generous.  I would probably put that number around 85%.

And those aren't all "newbies".  Those are people that love soccer and watch it regularly every Saturday.

Here's an example: in June, I was standing around a parking lot drinking pints after a game with 5 teammates.  All love soccer.  All watch regularly.  Not a single one knew that the Gold Cup was on.  These people could probably name the starting 11 for Liverpool, but they have no idea about the domestic game.

I can guarantee that not a single one will know:

1) How Concacaf qualification works or,

2) Where Canada is in that qualification.

To them (the vast majority of soccer fans in Canada), qualifying from Concacaf should be easy because you just have to beat up on a bunch of caribbean nations that are recovering from the latest hurricane.  So, qualifying for the World Cup won't make a lick of difference to them.  However, if they see Canada in the World Cup and we fail to score a goal or win a game, that'll just reaffirm the status quo (Canada=terrible) for the vast majority of them.

The Olympics on the other hand are an opportune time to have the team front and center on national television with the added bonus of increased odds of winning a game or two.  If I was the CSA and my goal was to increase exposure, I would go all in on the Olympics. 

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15 minutes ago, El Hombre said:

No, that's an incorrect assumption.  I said 75% because I was trying to be generous.  I would probably put that number around 85%.

And those aren't all "newbies".  Those are people that love soccer and watch it regularly every Saturday.

Here's an example: in June, I was standing around a parking lot drinking pints after a game with 5 teammates.  All love soccer.  All watch regularly.  Not a single one knew that the Gold Cup was on.  These people could probably name the starting 11 for Liverpool, but they have no idea about the domestic game.

I can guarantee that not a single one will know:

1) How Concacaf qualification works or,

2) Where Canada is in that qualification.

To them (the vast majority of soccer fans in Canada), qualifying from Concacaf should be easy because you just have to beat up on a bunch of caribbean nations that are recovering from the latest hurricane.  So, qualifying for the World Cup won't make a lick of difference to them.  However, if they see Canada in the World Cup and we fail to score a goal or win a game, that'll just reaffirm the status quo (Canada=terrible) for the vast majority of them.

The Olympics on the other hand are an opportune time to have the team front and center on national television with the added bonus of increased odds of winning a game or two.  If I was the CSA and my goal was to increase exposure, I would go all in on the Olympics. 

Okay, I see your perspective and agree with your assessment of these types of people. I would describe my teammates in the same way. I'm with you on all of that.

The one thing we differ on is the part about Canada's reputation taking a big boost from the Olympics. I know exactly the type of people you are talking about and I sincerely doubt they'll take notice of any good results.

Even if we were to upset a Brazil or Argentina, it would be like "wow, maybe Canada isn't a complete joke afterall". These people know it's not Brazil's senior team, so any street cred we pick up would only go so far.

I think a strong Olympic performance AND qualifying for the world cup (and crashing out) would confirm to all we are on the rise. It would confirm the Olympics were not a one-off and not a fluke. As I see it, the WC qualifying would be needed to give this (hypothetical) Olympic performance legitimacy. 

Scenarios ranked from most to least desirable when it comes to enhancing our reputation:

1. Great Olympics, Bad World Cup

2. No Olympics, Bad World Cup

3. Great Olympics, No World Cup.

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45 minutes ago, Obinna said:

Well, what can I say? I love your optimism and would love for us to medal at the Olympics and would love for that to create a groundswell of organic support that corresponds to our Canadian premier league players in the way you just described. We all support Canada around here and we all want the best for our national team. I cannot say I wouldn't love that!

It seems you are clearly still upset at our strategy not to call Davies and co. to under 20 qualifying...

My general attitude to that and the upcoming Olympic qualifying (another youth tournament) is that if there is no conflict than sure, let's call them up and get our best eligible to represent us.

But quite often there are varying degrees of conflict which prevent this from happening. Sometimes it may be a very minor conflict, such as a club commitment. Sometimes it may be a larger issue like we saw for the U20 (can't have players with the senior team for nations league qualifying AND the u20 qualifying, unless you wanted to fly them back and forth between camps - which probably wasn't on the table anyways, as that would be an unprecedented move by the csa, not to mention that extra travel is often met with concern for player health).

Either way, I don't know about you, but I actually have belief that we can qualify for the Olympics without Davies and co.

If we do qualify we can have a conversation about putting them inthe Olympics (which I think would be smart of us to do so).

Yes I would like to see the program start to put a little emphasis on these lower level tournies.  Lets start somewhere eh??  I think we could have beat up on those minnows in nations league without Davies and David etc.  And we would still be sitting in the same spot, must win nations league games, except maybe our U-20 kids would have a big tournie under their belts.  I just dont want us to blow of another tournie because its not the WC, and only the WC matters.  We are getting more and more depth up front and in the midfield, even if there is a mini-conflict, some of them could be sent back to U-23 without much of a drop off.  Send Larin as an over ager (possible??), send Liam Millar and call up Akindele to mens.  

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Posted (edited)
20 minutes ago, Bison44 said:

Yes I would like to see the program start to put a little emphasis on these lower level tournies.  Lets start somewhere eh??  I think we could have beat up on those minnows in nations league without Davies and David etc.  And we would still be sitting in the same spot, must win nations league games, except maybe our U-20 kids would have a big tournie under their belts.  I just dont want us to blow of another tournie because its not the WC, and only the WC matters.  We are getting more and more depth up front and in the midfield, even if there is a mini-conflict, some of them could be sent back to U-23 without much of a drop off.  Send Larin as an over ager (possible??), send Liam Millar and call up Akindele to mens.  

Well there may not be any notable conflict with the senior team if we don't get past the United States. The odds are against us, but I believe we can do it.

If not though, we still have things to consider. Do you take Millar away from Kilmarnock in March for Olympic qualifying? If it's during a FIFA break than why not? His club would have no recourse.

Davies may be different. He is at Bayern Munich. The benefits of staying with your club grow the bigger your club is - and it doesn't get any bigger than Bayern.

Here is another one: what if Tabla gets a chance to train with the Barca first team during that time? Maybe Olympic qualifying is best, but it wouldn't be an easy decision for the player.

And David, what if he has made a winter move? Do you let him stay and settle at a Benfica for instance, or do you go all in on that Olympic Qualifying? Would be a big choice to make.

And just so you know, there are no over-aged players permitted in qualification.

Edited by Obinna

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Posted (edited)
9 minutes ago, Bison44 said:

I was thinking if we make it, send Larin and Kaye or Piette as overagers.  HEHEHE, not sure what the cut off is, 24, 23??  

For overagers? There is no age limit, for youth players, 23, so 1997 and younger.

Edited by Blackdude

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12 minutes ago, Bison44 said:

I was thinking if we make it, send Larin and Kaye or Piette as overagers.  HEHEHE, not sure what the cut off is, 24, 23??  

We can send 3 players born before 1997.

I would send our best 3 available players unless there is a specific hole to fill.

Off the top of my head, I would think Cavallini would be a prime candidate.

Borjan would also be a strong choice.

And I would perhaps go with a sentimental/gratitude pick with Atiba. He has done so much for us and that would be the ultimate send off.

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Posted (edited)

------------------------Borjan-------------------

ZBG------Hutchinson-Cornelius----Davies

--------------------Fraser---Okello--------------------

Millar-----------------------------------------Tabla

--------------------David---Cavallini---------

- Borges

- Miller

- Langwa

- Verhoeven 

- Godinho

- Busti

- Campbell

Edited by Obinna

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I wouldn’t see a need to send overage attackers considering how strong we are.  Also don’t forget Adonijah Reid, who is in France but was probably our best player at u20s last year.  

Looks like we may need a keeper but I would send Crepeau instead of Borjan.  I’d also use it as an opportunity to bring over Tomori but if he’s still not coming then I’d call Henry or James. For the third call up I’d go with a holding mid so either Eustaquio, Kaye or Piette.

 

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I see some of us are overzealous, and have lineups made for an already qualified team. Even though we haven't qualified for an Olympics longer than us qualifying for a World Cup - let that sink in. 

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2 minutes ago, Shway said:

I see some of us are overzealous, and have lineups made for an already qualified team. Even though we haven't qualified for an Olympics longer than us qualifying for a World Cup - let that sink in. 

If we don’t do it in real life we’ll all do it in football manager, so this conversation is relevant despite your “facts”.

😉

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31 minutes ago, Shway said:

I see some of us are overzealous, and have lineups made for an already qualified team. Even though we haven't qualified for an Olympics longer than us qualifying for a World Cup - let that sink in. 

Good point Shway, 2 years after we qualified for Olympics, we had our WC qualification.  Hmmmmmmmmmmmm.

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9 minutes ago, Bison44 said:

Good point Shway, 2 years after we qualified for Olympics, we had our WC qualification.  Hmmmmmmmmmmmm.

Hey! If anything the longer the drought the more we are due for one, no? 

😉

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7 hours ago, Obinna said:

Scenarios ranked from most to least desirable when it comes to enhancing our reputation:

1. Great Olympics, Bad World Cup

2. No Olympics, Bad World Cup

3. Great Olympics, No World Cup.

You missed the most likely:

4. No Olympics, No World Cup, but winning a couple games against Cuba in Nations League! 

In all seriousness, we have gone down the b-team, no prep route for qualification in the past and it doesn't work.  Radical idea, try something else.

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Posted (edited)

I think people over think things a bit much. I want them to qualify for the Olympics because I like watching Canada play soccer. And maybe against Argentina and not against like Martinique might be interesting for a change

Edited by SpursFlu

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On 5/21/2019 at 3:50 PM, Shway said:

Team will likely come from these group of players, however it doesnt factor in full senior players who are eligible (Godinho, Cornelius, Brault-Guillard, Millar, Miller, Davies, David, Tabla) 

GOALKEEPERS:
Dayne St. Clair, James Pantemis, Alessandro Busti

DEFENDERS (14):
Clèment Bahiya, Diego Gutierrez, Kadin Chung, Chrisnovic N'sa, Ndzemdzela Langwa, Matthew Baldisimo, Julian Dunn-Johnson, Émile Legault, Rocco Romeo, Kosovar Sadiki, Daniel Kinumbe, Scott Kennedy, Callum Montgomery, Thomas Meilleur-Giguère

MIDFIELDERS (11):
Shamit Shome, Mathieu Choinière, Liam Fraser, David Choinière, Tristan Borges, 
Nicolás Galvis, Terran Campbell, Noah Verhoeven, Noble Okello, Kris Twardek, David Norman Jr, 

FORWARDS (7): 
Tajon Buchanan, José Hernández, Theo Bair, Jacob Shaffelburg, Dario Zanatta, Gabriel Boakye, Adonijah Reid 

in love with that list... i would also add Axel de Jardins, Matthew Nogueira et Sebastian Breza for GK

Diyaeddine Abzi for leftback

Benson Fazili & Luke Singh (brondby) for mid

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On 8/9/2019 at 11:37 PM, Dicdan said:

Thanks.  Seems Brym has been contacted by Mauro Biello of the U23 team for a camp this summer that didn't come to pass.  Sounds as though Charles Andreas would be willing to play since it would not affect his ultimate choice of Canada or France.

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