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Pottsy3

Niagara CPL

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I think Niagara would be a good eventual market for a 2nd division team...

To me CPL needs to be a true nationwide league and that means a team in Quebec (Laval or Quebec City) and Saskatoon....eventually Ottawa will have a team (Fury or not) also....

After that I think if/when you expand into Ontario it should be London....its far enough away from Toronto to have its own identity and could viably pull from K/W and Windsor at times....to me York, Forge and London are all separated enough to where it works

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Posted (edited)
9 hours ago, mrstepp817 said:

I think Niagara would be a good eventual market for a 2nd division team...

Given promotion and relegation is mentioned as a definite goal of the CanPL project after 16 or so is reached any team entering CanPL could wind up being 1st or 2nd division if that ever actually happens. There is no reason why fans in Niagara shouldn't aspire to having one of the top teams and why any city that could sustain a full-time professional setup should be pigeonholed as only being suitable for a particular division, especially if salary caps are going to be an ongoing feature.  Pro/rel means that Bournemouth and Burnley can crash the party whether the marketing boys like it or not in national footprint terms.

12 hours ago, matty said:

They have a weird situation in that while separate, they are somewhat dependent on Toronto and Hamilton in relation to media which is a big thing...

On television, to an extent but the Toronto stations are there only in the same sort of way that Detroit, Cleveland and Erie, Pa. stations are on the dial as well and a lot of people watch the American prime time programming or in recent time all the specialty channels and don't fixate on the few channels like City TV or Global that are coming from Toronto with Toronto area content. Where CTV is concerned London gets a Kitchener channel rather than the Toronto one, for what it's worth. London has its own local television news and community cable, so the London audience is usually not getting its local news through a Toronto filter as happens with Mississauga or York Region.

On radio, Toronto is not much of a factor probably because the escarpment is in the way in reception terms and the local stations dominate and talk up teams like the Knights in a big way. On newspapers, yes the Toronto papers are sold but the Free Press is dominant in circulation terms especially in the more blue collar parts of town and again that's an outlet that talks up teams like the Knights in a big way, and even if the printed media is something that is in decline the Free Press website is also still a significant factor.

Edited by Ozzie_the_parrot

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

On television, to an extent but the Toronto stations are there only in the same sort of way that Detroit, Cleveland and Erie, Pa. stations are on the dial as well and a lot of people watch the American prime time programming or in recent time all the specialty channels and don't fixate on the few channels like City TV or Global that are coming from Toronto with Toronto area content. Where CTV is concerned London gets a Kitchener channel rather than the Toronto one, for what it's worth. London has its own local television news and community cable, so the London audience is usually not getting its local news through a Toronto filter as happens with Mississauga or York Region.

On radio, Toronto is not much of a factor probably because the escarpment is in the way in reception terms and the local stations dominate and talk up teams like the Knights in a big way. On newspapers, yes the Toronto papers are sold but the Free Press is dominant in circulation terms especially in the more blue collar parts of town and again that's an outlet that talks up teams like the Knights in a big way, and even if the printed media is something that is in decline the Free Press website is also still a significant factor.

Dude no. Toronto televisions stations operate as the local station unlike Detroit or Cleveland. London has its Global, OMNI and CityTV shared while Windsor's CTV is shared. These are big outlets and usually have stronger audiences than community television. The fact you seem fixated on saying it's not a big deal really is stubborn at this point as you've shown ignorance to media markets, dismissed the notion economic centres, dismissed looking at historic examples, and seem to want the first 16 to mostly be Ontario based and **** on the idea of people wanting the league to avoid that.

on radio you're 100% right, Toronto isn't a factor outside of digital, but newspapers are a bit more complex as the larger newsgroups (CBC, Torstar, NYT, GnM) are forcing their way into way market's digital spaces, from hijacking stories (CBC does this) to being the lone Canadian outlet available via Apple News (Toronto Star). It's actually a bigger issue and there's no clear idea of how it'll impact sports.

Edited by matty

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, matty said:

Dude no. Toronto televisions stations operate as the local station unlike Detroit or Cleveland...

Seriously bud. What are you trying to prove at this point? I have lived in London off and on for decades (not working there right now but plan to return and still get back every year) and I'd be very surprised if anyone from London would agree with you on that. Channel 10 CFPL provides London's local TV news and the local news for a large wider rural hinterland:

https://london.ctvnews.ca/

and has done so for decades. It's a "CTV Two" channel now but hasn't always been:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CFPL-DT

That's the channel that people from a large chunk of southwestern Ontario will tend to turn to for their local news, then they might check out something like the National on CBC for wider Canadian and international stories. There would be no point watching a Toronto station to find out the local angle because anything over the Escarpment barely rates a mention on a Toronto based news broadcast any more than it would on a Detroit station and if you live in London what's happening at Jane-Finch or Bloor and Spadina or whatever on any given day is about as relevant to your daily experience as what's happening on Eight Mile Road or the Ambassador Bridge.

There's a large chunk of Southwestern Ontario for which London is the centre of gravity in terms of public services and live entertainment that has a population comparable to somewhere like Nova Scotia. CanPL would be crazy to overlook it as a possible expansion market, which is why it rates a mention from Paul Beirne in podcasts along with other similar large regional centres in Ontario like Windsor, K/W and Niagara.

Hopefully the Niagara guys get their act together and do something similar to the Mississauga fan group. Over and out for this particular argument.

 

Edited by Ozzie_the_parrot

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Posted (edited)

Bournemouth and Burnley are awful examples because in both cases their history has been a) largely lower league, b) Premier league participation is sustained only through crazy amounts of money from TV rights (and, in Bournemouth's case, being bought and funded by a Russian petrochemicals billionaire in 2009.)

It's like people don't know that Bournemouth was bankrupt ten years ago before a flood of foreign money.

Edited by The Real Marc

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Posted (edited)
5 hours ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

Seriously bud. What are you trying to prove at this point? I have lived in London off and on for decades (not working there right now but plan to return and still get back every year) and I'd be very surprised if anyone from London would agree with you on that. Channel 10 CFPL provides London's local TV news and the local news for a large wider rural hinterland:

I'm saying that there are fair reasons for some to be on the fence about putting up to 50% of the first 16 CPL teams in Southern Ontario, which you don't seem to think is fair and if you've lived in London on and off for a decade then I'm sure you've noticed they've cut sizable amounts from local news and has on several occasions over the last decade been close to covering both London and Windsor, in fact Windsor operates out of London for its newscasts. Both operations are also #2 in their markets and VHFs.

5 hours ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

There's a large chunk of Southwestern Ontario for which London is the centre of gravity in terms of public services and live entertainment that has a population comparable to somewhere like Nova Scotia. CanPL would be crazy to overlook it as a possible expansion market, which is why it rates a mention from Paul Beirne in podcasts along with other similar large regional centres in Ontario like Windsor, K/W and Niagara.

Hopefully the Niagara guys get their act together and do something similar to the Mississauga fan group. Over and out for this particular argument.

 

No one is saying "don't put teams here". No one has at any point suggested that. What's been suggested is hesitation towards putting teams there before other markets outside of Ontario and maybe holding off until phase 2 expansion is ready.

Edited by matty

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In an ideal world, there are several cities in other provinces that would get it together re: ownership and stadium enough to join,  and the other big Ontario cities would fill in after. 

In the real world,  I think we need to take whoever is ready to go. If say Niagara or London have owners begging to write cheques and build stadiums, it would be crazy to turn them down.

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Posted (edited)
39 minutes ago, Tigers said:

In an ideal world, there are several cities in other provinces that would get it together re: ownership and stadium enough to join,  and the other big Ontario cities would fill in after. 

In the real world,  I think we need to take whoever is ready to go. If say Niagara or London have owners begging to write cheques and build stadiums, it would be crazy to turn them down.

this is true but caution needs to be there. if you're just handing out teams to southern ontario cities to reach 16 teams in 2026 then something is wrong.

just to note
- moncton
- quebec city
- montreal
- st. john's
- saskatchewan
- mainland bc
- ottawa

those are 7 markets that have had rumours that are also largely their own media markets that also often happen to be commerce or government capitals for their provinces (9 of 10). add gta2 and you have 15 teams. it's not hard to avoid clustering the first 16 teams too much, it might take time but it very well could be the safer route.

Edited by matty

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I didn't say "just handing out teams" , I said owners ready to write checks and build stadiums.

You're telling me if Barry in KW finds a David Argyle - type billionaire and an agreement with Laurie or UW to expand their stadium, has the money and plan ready to go, you would say "nah... we're holding out for Fraser Valley who we haven't heard from yet, sorry" ?

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2 hours ago, Tigers said:

I didn't say "just handing out teams" , I said owners ready to write checks and build stadiums.

You're telling me if Barry in KW finds a David Argyle - type billionaire and an agreement with Laurie or UW to expand their stadium, has the money and plan ready to go, you would say "nah... we're holding out for Fraser Valley who we haven't heard from yet, sorry" ?

Would be amazed if those involved with the expansion process would say no to a 600k market with another 7-8 million to draw from so they can have a specific location join first. Can you imagine "Everything looks good, we need to wait at least 2 years to see if someone in the valley will be ready though, hang tight, and be prepared for the fee to increase by another 5 million in that time." 

I think having a lot of southern ontario clubs will be good for sustainability and marketing purposes. Real rivalries, not some BS "905 Derby" someone in the marketing department cooked up. 500+ away fans every match between south ontario clubs can go a long way. Same can be said for BC and Que

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, Tigers said:

I didn't say "just handing out teams" , I said owners ready to write checks and build stadiums.

You're telling me if Barry in KW finds a David Argyle - type billionaire and an agreement with Laurie or UW to expand their stadium, has the money and plan ready to go, you would say "nah... we're holding out for Fraser Valley who we haven't heard from yet, sorry" ?

i know, just being a little exaggerating there. also no, i'm saying be a little selective. i do think there will be 5 teams in southern ontario in that first but what i would be concerned about i think the league should avoid is having 6-9 teams of the first 16 in the region due to history, unstable media markets (as mentioned some are being merged or under consideration for merger), the league's goals, and image.

Edited by matty

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46 minutes ago, matty said:

i know, just being a little exaggerating there. also no, i'm saying be a little selective. i do think there will be 5 teams in southern ontario in that first but what i would be concerned about i think the league should avoid is having 6-9 teams of the first 16 in the region due to history, unstable media markets (as mentioned some are being merged or under consideration for merger), the league's goals, and image.

Which media markets are being merged or considered for merger??

 

Just curious

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Impactsupporter said:

Which media markets are being merged or considered for merger??

 

Just curious

london/woodstock/wingham and windsor. ctv has looked into closing the windsor station and making london the southwest station at least twice since 2010 and global looked into having the windsor station cover the whole area as well.

it's not so much a full on merger, as radio and news are still separate, just very key local media changing focus

Edited by matty

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You are all aware that Victoria is a fairly mediocre media market?

But since it is compact, and is easily set apart geographically, it is acceptable and there are few overflows.

I don't think that the media side of things is that important if those at a club know how to engage social media and are smart enough to place a few ads--then work the youth soccer connections.

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4 hours ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

You are all aware that Victoria is a fairly mediocre media market?

But since it is compact, and is easily set apart geographically, it is acceptable and there are few overflows.

I don't think that the media side of things is that important if those at a club know how to engage social media and are smart enough to place a few ads--then work the youth soccer connections.

victoria is part of the 3rd largest media market in the country

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1 hour ago, matty said:

victoria is part of the 3rd largest media market in the country

Yeah, not sure being part of that market helps us. It makes advertising more expensive and wasted on people who will never come to a game, and it means PFC competes for attention with all of the teams in the Lower Mainland for coverage.

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Posted (edited)
27 minutes ago, ted said:

Yeah, not sure being part of that market helps us. It makes advertising more expensive and wasted on people who will never come to a game, and it means PFC competes for attention with all of the teams in the Lower Mainland for coverage.

that's true but it is useful for attracting larger advertisers to the league. same goes for york (and hamilton, as its part of the same market), they're useful places to be. i think being in those markets is part of why the mediapro deal was as large as it was

Edited by matty

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Hamilton and the Niagara peninsula have CHCH for their local TV news, Hamilton has its own set of radio stations (including sports radio) and the Spectator as its newspaper, so Hamilton is not part of the Toronto media market to anything like the same extent that York region is and can best be viewed as semi-detached from it.

Judging by what Mediapro people have been stating in interviews the deal is about where they hope soccer will be in Canada when the 2026 World Cup rolls around (which is why the CMNT component is important) through to ten years from now more than where it is now. Whether it is locked in for ten years completely airtight no matter what if they don't meet targets on subscribers and revenues remains to be seen, but noone can reasonably criticize the job they are doing to try to make it work.

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Posted (edited)
19 minutes ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

Hamilton and the Niagara peninsula have CHCH for their local TV news, Hamilton has its own set of radio stations (including sports radio) and the Spectator as its newspaper, so Hamilton is not part of the Toronto media market to anything like the same extent that York region is and can best be viewed as semi-detached from it.

Hamilton is considered part of the Toronto-Hamilton market 
http://canmediasales.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/12/TV-Basics-2016-17.pdf
http://radiostationworld.com/locations/canada/ontario/radio_broadcasting/

It's stupid but it's true

19 minutes ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

Judging by what Mediapro people have been stating in interviews the deal is about where they hope soccer will be in Canada when the 2026 World Cup rolls around (which is why the CMNT component is important) through to ten years from now more than where it is now. Whether it is locked in for ten years completely airtight no matter what if they don't meet targets on subscribers and revenues remains to be seen, but noone can reasonably criticize the job they are doing to try to make it work.

Not sure what you're addressing here but yea the deal is betting on where it goes, I do disagree with your end statement solely based on the lack of French options, that can be criticized, but it is a work in progress.

Edited by matty

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Posted (edited)
6 hours ago, matty said:

victoria is part of the 3rd largest media market in the country

NOPE.

As someone involved heavily in the recent mayoralty campaign, handling aspects of communications so closer than you would normally get, I can assure you that they are not at all the same market. That someone in Victoria might get a Vancouver channel of news, or even vice versa, is irrelevant. We even tried to work the Vancouver market, which ignores Victoria, to get a bit of traffic and interest from that end coming back, since many ex-Victorians are in Vancouver, but it was unfruitful. 

In Vancouver the only regular Victoria news is BC politics; if Pacific gets any Vancouver press, and they might, it'll be anecdotal, never consistent.

The press is very weak and disperse in Victoria, apart from being almost amateur at times. It is not proactive, there is no leadership in editing, they produce relatively little content. There is a lot of cronyism, also because of the proximity to the provincial capital but in a small-town environment. Competition does not really exist in a proper sense, and they tend to be happy with what they do and that is it. The press is not even consistent in terms of political leaning, it conceals what it really thinks quite often, and lets locals decide for themselves.  

Victorians being amongst the most highly educated urban populations in Canada, if not THE highest, mostly figure things out for themselves. And allow themselves to be shielded  from certain external influences, even media trends. That explains how relatively easy it is for them, and other Islanders, to be mavericks in their choices (Green MPs).

Edited by Unnamed Trialist

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

NOPE.

As someone involved heavily in the recent mayoralty campaign, handling aspects of communications so closer than you would normally get, I can assure you that they are not at all the same market. That someone in Victoria might get a Vancouver channel of news, or even vice versa, is irrelevant. We even tried to work the Vancouver market, which ignores Victoria, to get a bit of traffic and interest from that end coming back, since many ex-Victorians are in Vancouver, but it was unfruitful. 

In Vancouver the only regular Victoria news is BC politics; if Pacific gets any Vancouver press, and they might, it'll be anecdotal, never consistent.

The press is very weak and disperse in Victoria, apart from being almost amateur at times. It is not proactive, there is no leadership in editing, they produce relatively little content. There is a lot of cronyism, also because of the proximity to the provincial capital but in a small-town environment. Competition does not really exist in a proper sense, and they tend to be happy with what they do and that is it. The press is not even consistent in terms of political leaning, it conceals what it really thinks quite often, and lets locals decide for themselves.  

Victorians being amongst the most highly educated urban populations in Canada, if not THE highest, mostly figure things out for themselves. And allow themselves to be shielded  from certain external influences, even media trends. That explains how relatively easy it is for them, and other Islanders, to be mavericks in their choices (Green MPs).

what? http://canmediasales.com/canada-101/canadian-media-stats/

we can argue if what is a market makes sense or is practica lor not (i think we'd agree, see me saying hamilton as part of toronto is dumb) but what defined as the market is largely set. it having blah media of its own does not erase that it is part of the 3rd largest media market. i don't know why you are acting liking it does. I'm not arguing the quality, I'm saying it is factually a part of something.

Edited by matty

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8 hours ago, Ruffian said:

Media markets are not like national boundaries, there is a lot of crossover and grey areas. So congrats, you are all correct.

Actually, the ones who say that Victoria is a separate market are correct.

Vancouver stations make no effort to reach out to Victoria viewers. Rogers only exists on OTA here as the transmitter hasn't broken down yet. Cable is the only way Vancouver stations can be reached and anything coming over the radio barely comes through most of the time.

Its much easier to get media content from Bellingham and Seattle compared the Vancouver. A poorly set up webpage from New York shows how clueless people are about the market.

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