2019 Canadian Premier League Attendance

[RS]

10 hours ago, Winnipeg Fury said:

 

I believe we are counting paid attendance.  Forge have yet to register a home crowd.

 

Forge had paid attendance at their first game. There are several thousand season ticket holders who already paid for tickets before the rest of the seats were filled with giveaways.

[Hybred]

29 minutes ago, RS said:

Forge had paid attendance at their first game. There are several thousand season ticket holders who already paid for tickets before the rest of the seats were filled with giveaways.

True season seat holders are instead getting the first Voyaguer Cup game in Hamilton as part of season seat package

[The Real Marc]

11 hours ago, youllneverwalkalone said:

2/3rds of the Portuguese league having been surviving on these numbers for almost 100 years.

How many of those clubs have gone under? 

[Shortdutchcanuck]

1 hour ago, RS said:

Forge had paid attendance at their first game. There are several thousand season ticket holders who already paid for tickets before the rest of the seats were filled with giveaways.

 

1 hour ago, Hybred said:

True season seat holders are instead getting the first Voyaguer Cup game in Hamilton as part of season seat package

The number of season ticket holders I have heard is between 5 and 6 thousand, so more than just several thousand paid seats.

And then as @Hybred mentioned we as season ticket holders get 15 home games for the price of 14 as part of our package, with the first V Cup match making up that free 15th.

But @Winnipeg Furyis 100% correct that Valour's first home game should stand as the highest paid attendance thus far. Here's hoping we can get to 10000 at some point in Hamilton (doubtful tonight on a weekday night though), and maybe Valour can get to 12 or so in nicer weather, but it wouldn't surprise me at all if that 1st Valour attendance is the highest of this season.

 

[Winnipeg Fury]

I have no doubt Hamilton will surpass 10000 fans, as I believe you have more season ticket holders than Valour.

I'm assuming  Forge season ticket holders did not pay for the first game, so paid attendance should be NA.

 

Edited May 8, 2019 by Winnipeg Fury

[baulderdash77]

For tonight there’s less than 50 tickets available on the West Grandstand about 150 ticket available on the east grandstand.  That should mean close to a sellout of 10,000.  

Edited May 8, 2019 by baulderdash77

[matty]

forge vs pfc in hamilton 5,861

[The Real Marc]

Pretty good for a weekday game!

Edited May 9, 2019 by The Real Marc

[grasshopper1917]

2 minutes ago, The Real Marc said:

Pretty good for a weekday game!

Could be much worse - anyone see the stands in Calgary yet??? Ticket taker forget to open the gates?   lol

[Gopherbashi]

37 minutes ago, grasshopper1917 said:

Could be much worse - anyone see the stands in Calgary yet??? Ticket taker forget to open the gates?   lol

The parking entrance accidentally re-routed onto the ramp back to Calgary.

[matty]

cavs vs valour in calgary......2055

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

5 hours ago, matty said:

forge vs pfc in hamilton 5,861

You can't tell from Ticketmaster then because availability there was limited and suggested they would be a lot closer to 10,000. Either a lot of no shows or they deliberately don't show all the unsold ticket inventory to create an impression of scarcity.

Think they should be very happy with that if it was all paid as weeknights in May are probably the lower end of the range. People might need to reconsider their assumptions about season ticket numbers, however.

Edited May 9, 2019 by Ozzie_the_parrot

[Unnamed Trialist]

If the pattern holds up, for next season clubs are going to ask for less midweek games and, as a consequence, a slightly longer season. It makes sense to me, since we've played the beautiful game in snow already or at near 0, we could handle a week earlier and a week later--to ensure better attendances on weekends throughout the season.

 

[Tigers]

I wouldn't be surprised if there were a lot of no-shows, it was quite cold. 

[Hybred]

It was freezing again unfortunately I am sure some people didn't come because of the weather never mind it was a Wed night. But still pleasantly surprised with the 6k turnout. The stand shown on TV was quite a bit less full on the other side it was packed up quite a bit more.

Edited May 9, 2019 by Hybred

[youllneverwalkalone]

I don't want to sound like I'm not following these numbers or this thread closely, but I do think attendance can be a red herring elsewhere -and probably here. We believe the operating budgets are around $5m annually at this point. We've been told by Josh Simpson that MediaPro is covering approximately half of this. The $5m budget makes sense in this context as we know the deal was 10 years/$200m. Whether this is cash or expenses paid directly, I don't think matters. The bottom line is that clubs have about $2,500,000 to cover to break even and survive. Even if this was all on attendance (which it's not because we have Volkswagen, Macron, West Jet, etc. to provide other revenue streams/cover costs) that's like 125,000 paid per team at $20 a ticket with no merchandise or other game day revenue. So 8,000-9,000 per game average worst case scenario.

I don't expect we'll see the league average 8-9k per match, but I think 4-5k will happen. And I think everyone in the league is ok with that. I'm sure there will be some losses, but at the end of year 1 nobody will be suffering so much that they won't be in a position to feel like they can improve in year 2 as well as provide a model for new clubs to enter the league.

 

Edited May 9, 2019 by youllneverwalkalone

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

2 minutes ago, youllneverwalkalone said:

I don't want to sound like I'm not following these numbers or this thread closely, but I do think attendance can be a red herring elsewhere -and probably here. We believe the operating budgets are around $5m annually at this point....

If the budgets were that high, we would be seeing some much more high profile signings. I suspect that was the number for year one with the league entry fee (what's going to be the expansion fee from now on) factored in.

[youllneverwalkalone]

Just now, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

If the budgets were that high, we would be seeing some much more high profile signings. I suspect that was the number for year one with the league entry fee (what's going to be the expansion fee from now on) factored in.

I don't mean salary. I mean total budget for the club. I would guess the salary is sub $1m.

[matty]

12 minutes ago, youllneverwalkalone said:

I don't mean salary. I mean total budget for the club. I would guess the salary is sub $1m.

the budgets are not likely that high as the $200m was being shared with the csa. it's also an amount that would drop with more teams

Edited May 9, 2019 by matty

[Stryker911]

I think if the leagues is even relatively successful this year, which by early indications it should be, then we will see a lot more large sponsors for next year. For this initial season I was surprised by the lack of large, corporate Canadian sponsorship. Only WestJet, Tim Hortons, and Moosehead really come to mind, while we also have Macron (Italian), VW (German), and MediaPro (Spain) as large foreign investors. I would think we will have a bank (Scotiabank or RBC?), oil and gas (Petro-Canada), insurance (Sunlife/manulife?), telecommunications (Bell/Rogers) just to name a few that might want to start getting involved when they see that it will be successful.

[matty]

2 minutes ago, Stryker911 said:

I think if the leagues is even relatively successful this year, which by early indications it should be, then we will see a lot more large sponsors for next year. For this initial season I was surprised by the lack of large, corporate Canadian sponsorship. Only WestJet, Tim Hortons, and Moosehead really come to mind, while we also have Macron (Italian), VW (German), and MediaPro (Spain) as large foreign investors. I would think we will have a bank (Scotiabank or RBC?), oil and gas (Petro-Canada), insurance (Sunlife/manulife?), telecommunications (Bell/Rogers) just to name a few that might want to start getting involved when they see that it will be successful.

I worry of draws are under 3k in Calgary that'll dampen interest from other sponsors. I would just add Nike is a sponsor

[youllneverwalkalone]

6 minutes ago, matty said:

the budgets are not likely that high as the $200m was being shared with the csa. it's also an amount that would drop with more teams

I believe the magic behind the SUM model that CSB is copying is that you acquire the national team rights at a low cost from a not-for-profit entity and then leverage those rights to pump money into the league.

I don't have time to dig up evidence (I mean random internet hearsay), I'm pretty confident the $5m budget is accurate. I don't see how the player budget could be much less than $1m. Travel has to be $500k at least. Match day costs have to be significant in most stadiums. Then you have the staff, marketing, etc. This has to add up to at least $2,500,000.

You Matty, somewhere, laid out the costs of TV production. Each match has a very high standard thus far. My guess is that MediaPro picks up this cost and estimates the FMV to be $150,000-$200,000 per match or $2,500,000 per club per season.

[ktf]

I think the leagues business model seems relatively solid so far, and the losses (at least for some teams), may not be so bad. I was fortunate enough to be able to study the consolidation of professional sports in North America and look at the CFL in particular, but the one thing that typically came up in terms of sustainability, was attendance to player salary. 

Obviously there are so many variables in terms of expenses and revenue sources, but typically (and to simplify it massively) if you can look at profit from home attendance and compare it to the salary costs you can determine the sustainability. So the CPL has a 1 million player salary cap I believe (1.5 was also mentioned, but I think the extra 500k was for total staff costs as well). 

So going outside the CPL for a minute, you can see why a team like the Maple Leafs are so successful. They sell out every game, and easily clear about 200 CAD per ticket (This is cutting out the expenses of rnning the game). So over the season...

19,000 X 200 X 41=$155,800,000- Basically double player salaries.

Comparatively, the Panthers average only 14,000/game, and practically give tickets away. I would say 40/game clearance could be high. 

14,000 X 40 X 41= 22,960,000... This is well below the NHL Salary floor

The recently failed Alliance of American Football is another example. Every player earned 83,000 and they had rosters of 52 (4,316,000). However, they had only 5 home games, and attendance was around 15,000 league wide. Single tickets range from 15 to 175. So assuming they were clearing even 40 per ticket (which given the cavernous nature of all the stadiums used and increased cost). They were looking at 3 million from tickets at best. Looking at that it is no surprise they pulled out, even with a TV deal.

Comparatively, the CPL seems to have reasonable projections for most teams. 

If Pacific FC can average 4,500, which is reasonable given the summer schedule and they earn around 20 dollars per ticket. That puts it around 1,350,000, which covers player salaries for sure.

Halifax looks like they will have 6k every game, which projects to 1.8 million. 

I could do similar projections for Forge or Valour, but I think their early showing and season ticket holders put them at least in a similar range to Halifax. 

Cavalry is a curious case, as the cost of the tickets could make the profit rate higher/ ticket. So if they average only 3,000 all year, but clear 30 per ticket, they would still be in the same range as PFC with cheaper seats.

The main point is, it is early, but given how they have set up the salary cap and have marketed the league, it seems sustainable. 

 

[matty]

10 minutes ago, youllneverwalkalone said:

I believe the magic behind the SUM model that CSB is copying is that you acquire the national team rights at a low cost from a not-for-profit entity and then leverage those rights to pump money into the league.

I don't have time to dig up evidence (I mean random internet hearsay), I'm pretty confident the $5m budget is accurate. I don't see how the player budget could be much less than $1m. Travel has to be $500k at least. Match day costs have to be significant in most stadiums. Then you have the staff, marketing, etc. This has to add up to at least $2,500,000.

You Matty, somewhere, laid out the costs of TV production. Each match has a very high standard thus far. My guess is that MediaPro picks up this cost and estimates the FMV to be $150,000-$200,000 per match or $2,500,000 per club per season.

$3m range is what'd I'd guess personally as player budgets have been suggested at under $1m and travel is likely discounted. In addition you have to remember at the current time there are 9 parties in the league.

If the tleague are getting say $125m from MediaPro then they're each getting about $1.5m, this number would decrease with each expansion as well.

Marketing for some teams has been minimal and some salaries have been suggested as low as $10k for USports.

Edited May 9, 2019 by matty

[youllneverwalkalone]

I guess it depends of who is covering the marketing costs, but Onesoccer, CPL Centre Circle, etc. weren't done for minimal costs.