Jayden Nelson

[costarg]

1 hour ago, Colliedor said:

 

But he didn't. That's the problem. He was given the chance and looked just as bad. The other problem is that he plays LCB, which is Mavinga's spot. He's not going to win over Mavinga. The defenders have been bad in the end of the day but imo Singh has looked worse. I want the kids to play, but they still have to earn it in some way, and right now I don't think Singh is even doing that. Even his tfc2 performances look shaky.

 

Players like Nelson will do well on loan or at the very least, a bench role. But the only real youngster that's worthy for a starting spot imo is Priso. He's the one getting the short end of the stick right now.

 

Everyone knows what you get from the current starters, the bar is not very high.  Singh and Dunn are the unknowns, They'll get better with each and every start, same can't be said for the current cast, they've already attained their best. 

Even if the kids best is just as bad as the Gonzoshow, it can't get any worse results wise.  You're losing with Gonzo, Zavaleta, Bradley and Delgado, might as well lose with the kids, who knows, they might even surprise you.  Playing Gonzo and Bradley twice a week is the best example of pure insanity i've seen in a while.   

Edited June 25, 2021 by costarg

[Obinna]

29 minutes ago, Bison44 said:

SIngh looked worse than ZAV...or Slomar??   Cripes even Mavinga has had several bad plays damn near every game, and he is supposedly a star and making a ton of cash.  Very frustrating...if SIngh is anywhere near Zavs level he should be getting those minutes.  WHat have you got to lose? Singh might get better, and prob will with more games, Zav is Zav, not getting better only getting a few more weeks closer to retirement.  The defense being a shambles isnt all on them, the 2 overpaid, overhyped vets in front of them most of the time are not doing them any favors.  Not a coincedence the defense looks better with Priso in there.  Cripes, we have great fullbacks, Lawerence is still capable and a good signing...with a DM in front that doesnt half ass it, it makes the CB job a bit easier and the whole unit will look better. 

Same thing for Nelsen. Does Endoh do anything nelsen cant at this point? Maybe...but will Endoh get any better??  Nelsen will with more reps and more confidence.  Why Endoh is getting garbage time minutes is beyond me.    I sure hope Nelsen to TFC2 is just a stop gap measure to get him in his groove with a nice run down there, then he comes back and we dont have to see Delgado or Endoh at the wing again this season.  And we dont need to see anymore of AURO in the midfield....its like Armas is going out of his way to bury the young players they were bragging up all spring.  2-3 losses and Armas threw all that "play the kids" horseshit out the window.  Thses f#ckin coaches can be ruthless with kids, but not with vets.  2 vets in the center of the park could use a benching, or call it a rest even.  One of them can play better than he has been, and you would expect more from the leader of the club.  

I agree with your overall sentiments. All things being equal, play your kids and bet on their upside.

Not saying I agree with it, but the reason we are seeing Endoh over Nelson or Zavaletta over Singh is probably experience, to answer your question.

There was more to Endoh's minutes than garabage time - they were trying to win the game. Rightly or wrongly they felt Endoh's profile was a better fit on that occasion, whether due to his experience or ability or both, only they know. 

Edited June 25, 2021 by Obinna

[Kent]

TFC record with Luke Singh starting.

1 win, 1 draw, 1 loss. Goals against per game, 2.33

TFC record with Chris Mavinga starting.

1 win, 1 draw, 7 losses. Goals against per game, 1.44

One of those starts for Mavinga he was subbed out after 45 minutes with TFC losing 2-0. Singh came on for him and the game finished 2-1. If we add that half of shut out football to Singh's GAA and subtract it from Mavingas GAA it becomes 2 goals against per game for Singh, and 1.52 for Mavinga.

Singh has also scored a goal, Mavinga hasn't scored or assisted any this season, and hasn't scored in any of his 90 games played for TFC.

That's comparing Singh to TFC's BEST CB. I think he has done enough to earn more chances. I'd also like to see Dunn if/when he is healthy. Gonzalez has been poor, Zavaletta isn't as good as Singh in my opinion.

I still think Nelson and Rutty should spend a bit more time maturing with another team, whether it's TFC II, a CPL team, or a USL-C team. But Singh and Priso I think should be in the starting lineup more often than not, on merit, without even having to consider their potential to get better.

[Kent]

P.S. The game that Singh subbed in for Mavinga and TFC clawed a goal back was the last time Singh even made it onto the bench.

[Bison44]

Thats just it, they are going with ZAV or ENDOH etc etc, thinking experience or whatever, and where is it getting them??  Worst in the league?? Second worst??  Its getting them nowhere...definition of stupid is doing the same thing over and over.  Nelsen's blind dribblin runs, SInghs poor marking, some of that is because of inexperieince and those mistakes will start to work themselves out. 

The framework is there.  The BONES of a good team are still there.  Poz, Soteldo, Akinola, Osorio, Laryea, Lawerence, Westberg... hell even mavinga and Slomar should be good enough with help from a DM.  A good orginization trims the dead wood and slots in younger better players.  Jozy and Bradley are ghosts...whatever Delgado did that made people love him..well he doesnt do it anymore.  Tweak it!! Manage bradleys min, you'll get more out of him.  Anything Delgado was doing, Priso can do better.  Dunn/Singh, Okello, Nelsen, these are the guys who should be picking up more minutes, not Endoh, Zav and Mullins.  

[RS]

13 minutes ago, costarg said:

Everyone knows what you get from the current starters, the bar is not very high.

They finished second overall last year with the current starters. That bar is plenty high, and those players didn't just stop knowing how to play soccer.

I'm not saying this to suggest the kids shouldn't play more. Priso should probably be a regular starter at this point, with Nelson and Okello coming off the bench semi-often depending on the situation (I think JMR is not quite ready to contribute meaningfully to TFC just yet).

But this notion that the team is crap as is is a cop-out that absolves the coach (and GM, to an extent) of the shit show that he's needlessly brought on. And with each loss, Armas' seat grows hotter, which isn't exactly the right environment for the kids to get any real growth in.

[Colliedor]

Why is Endoh being mentioned here? He literally has less minutes than Nelson. He isn't being favored over Nelson..

 

4 minutes ago, Kent said:

TFC record with Luke Singh starting.

1 win, 1 draw, 1 loss. Goals against per game, 2.33

TFC record with Chris Mavinga starting.

1 win, 1 draw, 7 losses. Goals against per game, 1.44

 

What? So on less starts, he concedes more? That's the argument? Maybe the offence didn't do much in the other games. Maybe Mavinga wasn't the reason for those losses. There is so much context to these things it's silly to just throw them out there and be like, yup this is definitive proof he's more useful.

Guy was starting when we lost big to Montreal and a terrible Vancouver team. Does that count for anything? Seriously, I always want kids to play, but holy cow he really isn't as good as some people here are making him to be. He's barely getting through usl1 guys. He still makes silly, really poor positioning mistakes.

TFC needs to look for a brand new starting CB, ASAP.

 

[CanadaSantos]

7 minutes ago, Kent said:

TFC record with Luke Singh starting.

1 win, 1 draw, 1 loss. Goals against per game, 2.33

TFC record with Chris Mavinga starting.

1 win, 1 draw, 7 losses. Goals against per game, 1.44

One of those starts for Mavinga he was subbed out after 45 minutes with TFC losing 2-0. Singh came on for him and the game finished 2-1. If we add that half of shut out football to Singh's GAA and subtract it from Mavingas GAA it becomes 2 goals against per game for Singh, and 1.52 for Mavinga.

Singh has also scored a goal, Mavinga hasn't scored or assisted any this season, and hasn't scored in any of his 90 games played for TFC.

That's comparing Singh to TFC's BEST CB. I think he has done enough to earn more chances. I'd also like to see Dunn if/when he is healthy. Gonzalez has been poor, Zavaletta isn't as good as Singh in my opinion.

I still think Nelson and Rutty should spend a bit more time maturing with another team, whether it's TFC II, a CPL team, or a USL-C team. But Singh and Priso I think should be in the starting lineup more often than not, on merit, without even having to consider their potential to get better.

im a little confused, your saying we should play Singh more despite the team allowing more goals when he's on? Some context is important to. Singh has 2 starts in mls. We allowed 6 goals in those 2 matches. Those matches were against Vancouver and Montreal..... that's absolutely shocking. Like i said the guy isn't even good in the USL-1 right now. He's been responsible for a couple of goals there and has been burned several times by USL-1 players 1v1. Sorry, he has to actually start playing well in a lower division before getting more chances for TFC.

[narduch]

The Leon games were flukes and or outliers.

They really should not be counted for anything.

[Bison44]

4 minutes ago, Colliedor said:

Why is Endoh being mentioned here? He literally has less minutes than Nelson. He isn't being favored over Nelson..

 

So far in MLS...the exciting homegrowns young future of the club, we are getting interest from europe vs the 27 year old international who i dont even know why he is still on the roster guy.....

Endoh   3games 1start, 76min

Nelsen, 3games, 2 starts 113 min

Rutty 2games...35min

[Obinna]

1 hour ago, Bison44 said:

Thats just it, they are going with ZAV or ENDOH etc etc, thinking experience or whatever, and where is it getting them??  Worst in the league?? Second worst??  Its getting them nowhere...definition of stupid is doing the same thing over and over.  Nelsen's blind dribblin runs, SInghs poor marking, some of that is because of inexperieince and those mistakes will start to work themselves out. 

The framework is there.  The BONES of a good team are still there.  Poz, Soteldo, Akinola, Osorio, Laryea, Lawerence, Westberg... hell even mavinga and Slomar should be good enough with help from a DM.  A good orginization trims the dead wood and slots in younger better players.  Jozy and Bradley are ghosts...whatever Delgado did that made people love him..well he doesnt do it anymore.  Tweak it!! Manage bradleys min, you'll get more out of him.  Anything Delgado was doing, Priso can do better.  Dunn/Singh, Okello, Nelsen, these are the guys who should be picking up more minutes, not Endoh, Zav and Mullins.  

I agree that changes need to be made, be it the coach or certain players, but the biggest reason Toronto are struggling, in my opinion, is that they were trying to play a style they don't have the players for. Under Vanney, Toronto was best when they were playing in between the lines and cutting teams apart. They have the players to do that still, but they are gung-ho on replicating the NYRB philosophy of high pressing and direct play. Now that it's not working, Armas seems to be scaling that back in favor of a more Traditional Toronto FC style, but the team has to play catch up now and you can't turn things on and off like a light switch. It takes time to adjust.

I am sure Armas is a good guy and a decent coach, but this hire never felt right from the get-go. Toronto need a Brian Schmetzer or Bruce Arena type, someone who will build a style according to the players at his disposal, not force a style onto players who are not suited for it.

You'd think Toronto would have learned their lesson with Aron Winter....

[Bison44]

If a coach only knows one style and either cant teach it, or cant adjust to players he has..do you really want him? Like it was said above, he isnt playing the high press as much anymore..and its not helping.  We all know there are a couple names penciled in first on the sheet for every game whether they are rested, healthy, fit the system he is trying that night, or have shitty attitudes.  And they should get the same result as any acadamy kid who isnt up to par....plant yourself on the bench until further notice.     

[Kent]

4 hours ago, CanadaSantos said:

im a little confused, your saying we should play Singh more despite the team allowing more goals when he's on? Some context is important to. Singh has 2 starts in mls. We allowed 6 goals in those 2 matches. Those matches were against Vancouver and Montreal..... that's absolutely shocking. Like i said the guy isn't even good in the USL-1 right now. He's been responsible for a couple of goals there and has been burned several times by USL-1 players 1v1. Sorry, he has to actually start playing well in a lower division before getting more chances for TFC.

I know it wasn't a rock solid "OH MY GOSH WHY AREN'T WE PLAYING THIS KID OVER MAVINGA" set of stats. As for the context, yes that is important. As you said, TFC gave up 4 goals to Montreal, that's why Singh's goals against per game is so high. Everyone remembers Singh getting beaten for pace by Quioto for one of those 4 goals. But everybody seems to forget that the first goal was scored when Auro tripped for no apparent reason to lose the ball, then Slomar left his man way too much space to let him receive the pass and score (on a first time shot which was pretty good to be honest). Another goal happened off a corner kick when Singh was covering someone at the near post. The kick went to the back post where Bradley got badly beaten to the ball (maybe it could have been called a foul for the attacker holding Bradley down). Then the 4th goal Singh was covering the ball carrier, not giving him anything meaningful when he laid it off to another player who just blew past Slomar for another goal. Auro, Gonzalez, and Bradley are still starting regularly, but the kid is deemed not good enough.

Highlights from the Montreal game for anyone that wants a refresher. https://www.mlssoccer.com/competitions/mls-regular-season/2021/matches/mtlvstor-04-17-2021/video

In the Vancouver game (which was a 2-2 draw, not a loss like @Colliedorthought) the first goal was off of a penalty that was conceded by Laryea. The second Vancouver goal was scored off a free kick, it looks like it's Osorio's man that he lets go behind Singh's back. Maybe Singh could have gotten that but he stayed with his man and didn't see the other attacker.

@narduchwhen the kid has played 3.5 games for TFC, how can you decide that a good game of his is an outlier? Maybe the Montreal game is the outlier?

I think people remember the Quioto goal and it paints an overall feeling like he makes mistakes, even if there hasn't been much. I'm sure he must've made some mistakes that didn't result in goals, but in my opinion he hasn't been nearly as bad as people are making it sound.

[Kent]

4 hours ago, Colliedor said:

There is so much context to these things it's silly to just throw them out there and be like, yup this is definitive proof he's more useful.

I didn't say anything about definitive proof. I put the good (the W-D-L record) alongside the bad (the goals against). I also didn't say he was more useful than Mavinga if that's what you are saying, I said Mavinga is TFC's best CB. I said Omar Gonzalez has been poor, and Zavaletta in my opinion isn't as good as Singh.

And I know the stats I was presenting are way too high level to determine much. I am definitely interested if someone has more granular stats for his performance as well as the other TFC CBs.

[narduch]

26 minutes ago, Kent said:

I know it wasn't a rock solid "OH MY GOSH WHY AREN'T WE PLAYING THIS KID OVER MAVINGA" set of stats. As for the context, yes that is important. As you said, TFC gave up 4 goals to Montreal, that's why Singh's goals against per game is so high. Everyone remembers Singh getting beaten for pace by Quioto for one of those 4 goals. But everybody seems to forget that the first goal was scored when Auro tripped for no apparent reason to lose the ball, then Slomar left his man way too much space to let him receive the pass and score (on a first time shot which was pretty good to be honest). Another goal happened off a corner kick when Singh was covering someone at the near post. The kick went to the back post where Bradley got badly beaten to the ball (maybe it could have been called a foul for the attacker holding Bradley down). Then the 4th goal Singh was covering the ball carrier, not giving him anything meaningful when he laid it off to another player who just blew past Slomar for another goal. Auro, Gonzalez, and Bradley are still starting regularly, but the kid is deemed not good enough.

Highlights from the Montreal game for anyone that wants a refresher. https://www.mlssoccer.com/competitions/mls-regular-season/2021/matches/mtlvstor-04-17-2021/video

In the Vancouver game (which was a 2-2 draw, not a loss like @Colliedorthought) the first goal was off of a penalty that was conceded by Laryea. The second Vancouver goal was scored off a free kick, it looks like it's Osorio's man that he lets go behind Singh's back. Maybe Singh could have gotten that but he stayed with his man and didn't see the other attacker.

@narduchwhen the kid has played 3.5 games for TFC, how can you decide that a good game of his is an outlier? Maybe the Montreal game is the outlier?

I think people remember the Quioto goal and it paints an overall feeling like he makes mistakes, even if there hasn't been much. I'm sure he must've made some mistakes that didn't result in goals, but in my opinion he hasn't been nearly as bad as people are making it sound.

Sorry for not being clearer. I meant in the grander scheme of things it masked TFC'S faults.

I am firmly a believer that TFC is failing by not giving these youth players a better shot.

[SoccMan]

5 hours ago, CanadaSantos said:

im a little confused, your saying we should play Singh more despite the team allowing more goals when he's on? Some context is important to. Singh has 2 starts in mls. We allowed 6 goals in those 2 matches. Those matches were against Vancouver and Montreal..... that's absolutely shocking. Like i said the guy isn't even good in the USL-1 right now. He's been responsible for a couple of goals there and has been burned several times by USL-1 players 1v1. Sorry, he has to actually start playing well in a lower division before getting more chances for TFC.

Don’t bother it’s not worth the aggravation. Here is the thing ,every Canadian player is amazing , every Canadian player who doesn’t make it in the MLS is due to not getting enough playing time . If they would have gotten enough playing time a guy like Jordan Hamilton would be playing for Barcelona now , but those bastards at TFC because he was Canadian did not play him enough. Saying all that TFC right now is a shit show and the three stooges , Manning, Curtis and Armas need to go .   At this point yes play the kids and see how it goes, I have no problem with that the season is done by the looks of it . At least if a kid makes mistakes you have an excuse, but what’s your excuse when a Mavinga takes a knee during the game instead of before kickoff. Watch one of the goals that Nashville scored in the last game to see what I mean lol.  Remember though the majority of this team almost won the Supporters Shield just last season and now with more or less the same team are behind that powerhouse of a team Cincinnati FC in the standings. If these bums keep losing then start playing the kids and see what they can do and replace the three stooges with one or two Canadians too they can’t do any worse that these three bums . 

[Dominic94]

Not sure what to make of him not starting, probably time he requests a move, reality is that either he’s not good enough for this level as he didn’t pan out, or TFC simply don’t rate him. It’s unlikely he is going to be the player we thought he would at this point it time. 
 

nothing to play for and he’s on the bench…

[canuckgbp]

Nelson coming on. Gets a 30min run. 

[Bison44]

Dominic94..I think it would be too much to start Rutty, Okello and Nelsen at the same time.  But i think he did enough tonight that he should get another start before the end of the season.  

[Corazon]

2 minutes ago, Bison44 said:

Dominic94..I think it would be too much to start Rutty, Okello and Nelsen at the same time.  But i think he did enough tonight that he should get another start before the end of the season.  

I agree with this and was debating responding as well.  We want the youth but it would be a disservice to the kids to put them all out there at the same time.  With that being said, I would rather lose 3-0 like that while playing all the kids then to lose 3-0 watching US journye men struggle all game.

[Bison44]

HAHA didnt you watch closely Corazon?? I saw a couple of american journeymen struggling out there.  

[RS]

[pedantic]

There weren’t any U.S. journeymen out there aside from Mullins. 

Bono has literally only ever played professionally for TFC and Zavaleta’s been with the club since 2015 (when he was 22).

[/pedantic]

Unless we’re just using “journeymen” as a synonym for American, in which case carry on.

[Gian-Luca]

7 minutes ago, Bison44 said:

HAHA didnt you watch closely Corazon?? I saw a couple of american journeymen struggling out there.  

That's the incredible thing about this....you'd think from the scoreline against a team that can't otherwise win a game to save their lives that it was playing all the young kids which doomed TFC on the evening, instead they were the best part of it and it was gaffe after gaffe by the Bonos, Bradleys, Mullins and Zavaletas that caused the goals against. Although I suppose Zavaleta is now an El Salvadoran journeyman.

[Dominic94]

18 minutes ago, Bison44 said:

Dominic94..I think it would be too much to start Rutty, Okello and Nelsen at the same time.  But i think he did enough tonight that he should get another start before the end of the season.  

There’s nothing to play for though

[RS]

To be more serious… Nelson showed some of what I’ve wanted to see out of Marshall-Rutty of late. He just takes players on with an almost joyful passion that has been rare in Canadian soccer players until recently. 

Nelson just needs to be able to play within a system and I think he’ll take off. 

(I still think JMR has a higher ceiling, but Nelson has a “wild card” factor that can be very intriguing if harnessed properly.)