Jayden Nelson

[Obinna]

All good points from you guys. Reading that makes it feel a little more justified why he was left off. I think he and Brym will both feature next cycle, and while I don't think either makes the plane to Qatar, Brym appears to be a little closer than Nelson at the moment.

[InglewoodJack]

1 hour ago, Obinna said:

Good to see him get some recognition. Days after the roster release and my opinion hasn't changed that he was snubbed for this roster. I have defended Brym im the past, and the coaching staff's reasons for rating him, but even I am surprised they rate him over Nelson, which is strange when you consider that they supposedly rated Nelson over Mitrovic. So by that logic, was Mitrovic behind Brym then, considering Nelson is? 

And did Nelson playing midfield instead of wide hurt his standing? Well that doesn't make sense either, because Herdman likes versitile players and the midfield is thin as it is.

I wonder if Toronto missing the playoffs made the difference here? Brym will be playing right up until World Cup, so that is something in his favour that Nelson doesn't have.

If that's not it, I will have to make time to actually watch Brym, just to see if maybe I am wrong about him. Maybe he really is better than Nelson right now.

I think it comes down to the type of club they play at and their potential to play at better clubs. Brym is signed to a first division Dutch team, he should be back with them next year, he's shown he can score a decent amount of goals, and he's already featured for Canada. I think that's more interesting to Herdman than Nelson at Toronto who is also much younger and he has more time to take a look at him.

I'm biased towards European leagues for sure, but I really do think this is a core part of Herdman's philosophy with prospects. Mitrovic was a nobody for Canada at Nis, even the rumors to Malmo (think there was one sending him to Hungary too IIRC) didn't move us much, but the second he inked a deal with Red Star, it was a mad dash to sign him. The second Kone turned pro and he started being the most hyped young player in Canada, he was given a spot, and now that he's had offers to join Norwich and Sheffield, he basically guaranteed his spot to Qatar. For Nelson, he's definitely good enough to get looks elsewhere, but is there any hype for him abroad? To be honest, him appearing on this top 22 list of prospects is really the first time I've heard his name outside of TFC media since he trialled at Anderlect last year. I think Herdman sees Nelson, until he proves otherwise, is a guy who will be a very solid MLS player and with that in mind, I don't think Herdman cares much to use a roster spot on a guy like that.

 

I think guys like him and ZBG are going to start getting eased onto the NT for Gold Cup though.

[dyslexic nam]

52 minutes ago, InglewoodJack said:

I think Herdman sees Nelson, until he proves otherwise, is a guy who will be a very solid MLS player and with that in mind, I don't think Herdman cares much to use a roster spot on a guy like that.

I just don’t understand that thinking.  We have a WC squad with 3 MLS veterans in midfield alone (MAK, Piette and Oso).  Nelson is playing at the same level at 19 years old.   I get that the other 3 are vets who have shown they can perform at this level but Nelson was the first of the young guns on the TFC game sheet every time there was room - and IMO (and I know opinions on this vary) he did pretty well with the minutes he was given. Is he ready for a spot in Qatar?  No.  But neither is Brym IMO.   

[InglewoodJack]

1 hour ago, dyslexic nam said:

I just don’t understand that thinking.  We have a WC squad with 3 MLS veterans in midfield alone (MAK, Piette and Oso).  Nelson is playing at the same level at 19 years old.   I get that the other 3 are vets who have shown they can perform at this level but Nelson was the first of the young guns on the TFC game sheet every time there was room - and IMO (and I know opinions on this vary) he did pretty well with the minutes he was given. Is he ready for a spot in Qatar?  No.  But neither is Brym IMO.   

I think you answered the question right there.

For Brym vs. Nelson, one plays in europe under contract for a first division Dutch team, the other is not. I really think that's what it comes down to. Plus, Nelson is 19, Brym is 24. I think you have to be squarely in the radar of top European clubs if you wanna make our team as a U20.

[jordan]

For the TFC experts

 

[frmr]

Hope so. All the talented Canadian youngsters should gtfo of Toronto. I'm waiting with bated breath for news over JMR's future.

[Shway]

1 minute ago, frmr said:

Hope so. All the talented Canadian youngsters should gtfo of Toronto. I'm waiting with bated breath for news over JMR's future.

Get in, and out.

I prefer this than them keeping the guys on their roster to play minimal minutes only to then waive them. 

For the sake of 26” I hope he lands somewhere decent. 

[Kadenge]

20 minutes ago, Shway said:

Get in, and out.

I prefer this than them keeping the guys on their roster to play minimal minutes only to then waive them. 

For the sake of 26” I hope he lands somewhere decent. 

There was some chatter previously that it was Anderlecht, where he had a training stint last winter, who wanted to sign him

[InglewoodJack]

According to the article this Belgian club- Anderlecht I guess was going to purchase him but Bradley turned them down? Hope he made a smart gamble.

Hope the same for JMR soon.

[dyslexic nam]

I won’t flog the deceased equine but I still believe he will be an impact player at the national level (and by implication have a solid club career).  He has many attacking skills that are hard to teach and his flaws are easily coachable.   Kid’s gonna do well IMO.  

[sose]

15 minutes ago, dyslexic nam said:

I won’t flog the deceased equine but I still believe he will be an impact player at the national level (and by implication have a solid club career).  He has many attacking skills that are hard to teach and his flaws are easily coachable.   Kid’s gonna do well IMO.  

Yea, he could be the #10 we need for 2026... time will tell.

[Jack1997]

I have a feeling that after he makes this likely move he’s really gonna succeed and become a NT mainstay similar to Buchanan. I think he’s best at CAM but could probably play CM with the NT in a more attacking role and have a eustaqio play a bit deeper than usual. I have a really good feeling about this kid that I don’t have with JMR, I think Nelson will be the better player.

[Dominic94]

I think he will be a good signing for the right team in Belgium or the Netherlands. He needs to play which isn’t really going to happen at TFC.

[Bdog]

6 hours ago, dyslexic nam said:

I won’t flog the deceased equine but I still believe he will be an impact player at the national level (and by implication have a solid club career).  He has many attacking skills that are hard to teach and his flaws are easily coachable.   Kid’s gonna do well IMO.  

The biggest thing he can do to vastly improve his game right now imo is just being better at maintaining possession. There were so many times last year where he'd get the ball higher up field with no support and would try to dribble his way out instead of going backwards and finding a teammate. And while I love when players have skill and the ability to take others on 1v1, he lost a few too many of them for me this season. Just in general there were too many times where he had the ball and I correctly predicted "he's about to lose the ball here".

That being said, his skillset is one I don't think anyone else in our pool has. He did pull off some really creative moves/flicks that actually worked and I do think he looked decent when he played more centrally. I agree that some of his flaws like the ones I mentioned are definitely coachable.

[Canuckistan2019]

What position  do you guys see him playing in Europe ? CM or winger ?

[BearcatSA]

2 hours ago, Bdog said:

The biggest thing he can do to vastly improve his game right now imo is just being better at maintaining possession.

He can be careless with loose passing in the wrong areas of the pitch, so that needs to get much better if he wants to avoid getting put in a gaffer's doghouse.  

Edited November 16, 2022 by BearcatSA

[dyslexic nam]

1 hour ago, Canuckistan2019 said:

What position  do you guys see him playing in Europe ? CM or winger ?

I don’t know where he will play but I would love to see him moulded into a high attacking mid.   I just think we have a lot of young talent on the wings.  Davies, Buchanan, Millar, Corbeanu - that is a solid pipeline of young wide attackers .  But in the middle there isn’t anyone showing the same level of promise other than maybe Kone. He has a better skillset as an outside attacker than JMR in my opinion but I would prefer to see both of them groomed for a more central role.  

[grigorio]

3 minutes ago, dyslexic nam said:

I don’t know where he will play but I would love to see him moulded into a high attacking mid.  

Young and Canadian? Fullback it is. 

[Free kick]

9 hours ago, Shway said:

Get in, and out.

I prefer this than them keeping the guys on their roster to play minimal minutes only to then waive them. 

For the sake of 26” I hope he lands somewhere decent. 

Ismael Kone’s minutes played in 2022:  1587 minutes 
https://www.mlssoccer.com/stats/players/#season=2022&competition=mls-regular-season&club=1616&statType=general&position=all

Jaden Nelson’ s minutes played in 2022:  1982 mins

McNaughton’s minutes played in 2022: 1789 mins

Petrasso’s minutes  played in 2022 : 1684 mins

Thompson’s minutes played in 2022: 1625 mins

Kerr’s minutes played in 2022:  1301 mins

Priso’s minutes played were only 274 mins.  But he was on pace, before injury, to play far more minutes than Kone.  

https://www.mlssoccer.com/stats/players/#season=2022&competition=mls-regular-season&club=2077&statType=general&position=all

 

Conclusion:  Kone’s, who is going deservedly to the WC,  played fewer minutes than all those guys except Kerr and yet he earned a spot on Herdman’s squad.  I guess that’s really minimal minutes then isnt it? Does talent not matter here?  To earn minutes you have to show something irrespective of your age.   Is talent and prospective talent really just about minutes played? Answer,  It sure as is not.  Kone, despite played fewer minutes, showed us he has talent to earn more minutes, the other guys above did not.  And yet, they still got more minutes. 

 

 

Edited November 16, 2022 by Free kick

[Cblake]

I could really care about age; I do get why people put so much importance into it. Sport really is a right here, right now business, a what have you done for me lately type of thing. If a guy can fill a role for 2 years and fill it in a way the coach is happy with, be happy with that.  

[Bertuzzi44]

50 minutes ago, Free kick said:

Ismael Kone’s minutes played in 2022:  1587 minutes 
https://www.mlssoccer.com/stats/players/#season=2022&competition=mls-regular-season&club=1616&statType=general&position=all

Jaden Nelson’ s minutes played in 2022:  1982 mins

McNaughton’s minutes played in 2022: 1789 mins

Petrasso’s minutes  played in 2022 : 1684 mins

Thompson’s minutes played in 2022: 1625 mins

Kerr’s minutes played in 2022:  1301 mins

Priso’s minutes played were only 274 mins.  But he was on pace, before injury, to play far more minutes than Kone.  

https://www.mlssoccer.com/stats/players/#season=2022&competition=mls-regular-season&club=2077&statType=general&position=all

 

Conclusion:  Kone’s, who is going deservedly to the WC,  played fewer minutes than all those guys except Kerr and yet he earned a spot on Herdman’s squad.  I guess that’s really minimal minutes then isnt it? Does talent not matter here?  To earn minutes you have to show something irrespective of your age.   Is talent and prospective talent really just about minutes played? Answer,  It sure as is not.  Kone, despite played fewer minutes, showed us he has talent to earn more minutes, the other guys above did not.  And yet, they still got more minutes. 

I agree with what you say here but I think to be fair the fact Kone is a CM, a position where Canada had/has possible concerns (Oso injury, Hutch 39 years old, Kaye sucks, Arfield excluded) probably helped him get into the WC squad.

[Free kick]

Kone is on Herdman’s squad because he has the talent to be on the squad.   He has shown that he can make a difference in a game.   Yes, his age shows sometime with lack of consistency.  But irrepective of your age,  talent (or prospective talent) is something you can show at any age.  I was not surprised by his addition to the squad, his talent makes the position he plays less relevant because you can use in many positions.  Thats an attribute of a good player. 
 

Kone started a playoff game and helped his team win.   And from seeing that,  you know that he is capable of doing it again, so you want him on the pitch.

Edited November 16, 2022 by Free kick

[dyslexic nam]

22 minutes ago, Cblake said:

I could really care about age; I do get why people put so much importance into it. Sport really is a right here, right now business, a what have you done for me lately type of thing. If a guy can fill a role for 2 years and fill it in a way the coach is happy with, be happy with that.  

I suspect there are some negatives intended in your first couple sentences that were missed (if I am reading it right).  

For me the motivation to focus on young players is just about recognizing the probable development that they will undergo.  I never played at a high level but I was definitely a better and smarter player in my late 20s than I was in my late teens.  So if a guy can do a solid job in MLS as a teenager, to me that suggests they will likely grow into a player that can perform at a higher level.  Maybe Nelson won’t develop much further and settle in as a middling MLS player - but I wouldn’t bet on it.  I think he will continue to get stronger, smarter and make better decisions.  We saw that over the course of this season so I think it is safe to assume that process will continue.

All of that doesn’t mean I would suggest taking him to Qatar over a guy like Spoony because of some vague notion of future potential.  The WC is about competing on the day and you take the guys best positioned right now to do the job.  But if we are thinking ahead, I am a helluva lot more excited about what Nelson might be able to bring to the team in 2026 than a much older player who probably is what he is at this point.  If he continues developing in a highly competitive environment, I think he has the tools and potential to be a superior player.  

[Free kick]

1 hour ago, Cblake said:

I could really care about age; I do get why people put so much importance into it. Sport really is a right here, right now business, a what have you done for me lately type of thing. If a guy can fill a role for 2 years and fill it in a way the coach is happy with, be happy with that.  

I am ok with grooming and nuturing talent. And showing patience with it.  But not all talent is the same.   Even at younger ages.   Not everyone is the same type of prospect.  Some are better than others.  I believe a raw 18 year old can help you win, just as Kone’s did.  I want as much talent developed for the NT’s like anybody else.  What i object to is that it just about minutes played or that every single young TFC players is a super talent or prospect. They they are not all the same, some i dont see as prospects.  Others of these TFC kids may turn to be decent players,  but what does decent mean?  i would never agree that a team that has the means and resources to field a good team,  should be scarificing that for the hope that someone will turn out one day to be decent.   Development is part of the process but its not the only reason for a clubs existence and most importantly of all, pro sports is still a meritocracy and a business.  You have to ultimately win.  What is the point of playing a bunch of prospects if they are not helping you win.

 

Edited November 16, 2022 by Free kick

[Cblake]

55 minutes ago, dyslexic nam said:

I suspect there are some negatives intended in your first couple sentences that were missed (if I am reading it right).  

For me the motivation to focus on young players is just about recognizing the probable development that they will undergo.  I never played at a high level but I was definitely a better and smarter player in my late 20s than I was in my late teens.  So if a guy can do a solid job in MLS as a teenager, to me that suggests they will likely grow into a player that can perform at a higher level.  Maybe Nelson won’t develop much further and settle in as a middling MLS player - but I wouldn’t bet on it.  I think he will continue to get stronger, smarter and make better decisions.  We saw that over the course of this season so I think it is safe to assume that process will continue.

All of that doesn’t mean I would suggest taking him to Qatar over a guy like Spoony because of some vague notion of future potential.  The WC is about competing on the day and you take the guys best positioned right now to do the job.  But if we are thinking ahead, I am a helluva lot more excited about what Nelson might be able to bring to the team in 2026 than a much older player who probably is what he is at this point.  If he continues developing in a highly competitive environment, I think he has the tools and potential to be a superior player.  

I am not looking at thing at all in a negative light, just that age should never get in the way of a players opportunity  in the present if they can fill a role for a team at the moment. Absolutely a player like Jayden should progress over the next few years.