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Another Canadian league folds

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https://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/questions-frustration-remain-wake-cwhls-decision-fold/

How can we make sure that the CPL will not suffer the same fate??  Especially when the MediaPro deal ends in 10 years.  

Will there be measures to ensure that the CPL will be sustainable financially???

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1 minute ago, Impactsupporter said:

https://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/questions-frustration-remain-wake-cwhls-decision-fold/

How can we make sure that the CPL will not suffer the same fate??  Especially when the MediaPro deal ends in 10 years.  

Will there be measures to ensure that the CPL will be sustainable financially???

Totally different animal. 

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Just now, Impactsupporter said:

https://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/questions-frustration-remain-wake-cwhls-decision-fold/

How can we make sure that the CPL will not suffer the same fate??  Especially when the MediaPro deal ends in 10 years.  

Will there be measures to ensure that the CPL will be sustainable financially???

That has nothing to do with CPL

Their business model was unsustainable (their own word). CPL's seems sound otherwise they wouldn't have gotten those media deals and sponsorship deals.

Women Soccer is massively on the rise with Euro stadiums selling out and our women's national team being constant draw wherever they go. Women's hockey? Not even close. Bad marketing, bad business model, low demand...

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We are in 2019 to be fair, and football has come a long way in Canada just as it has in the USA. The latter had leagues die and die again, but eventually a serious proposal in the MLS arrived and it's still there, and likely won't ever die now. The CanPL seems to be that in our case. In 10 years, I think there should be enough interest at least to keep it alive. We just need to be strategic about it. For example, I think having too many Ontario teams could be a mistake. Toronto FC has a strong follower base and having too many teams in the GTA area is risky.

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6 minutes ago, LatinInuk said:

For example, I think having too many Ontario teams could be a mistake. Toronto FC has a strong follower base and having too many teams in the GTA area is risky.

Don't fall for the "North American" model of "1 team per market". The GTA can easily support multiple teams.

Without minimizing the following of TFC, we can't exaggerate it either. They have the attendance and TV is on the rise but not even close to demonstrate that they have saturated the market let alone across the province

I like the Euro model of soccer being community based. York 9 and Forge aren't making a dent in TFC numbers. There's room for more across multiple division in Ontario. CPL must go where the people are.

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1 minute ago, Ansem said:

Don't fall for the "North American" model of "1 team per market". The GTA can easily support multiple teams.

Without minimizing the following of TFC, we can't exaggerate it either. They have the attendance and TV is on the rise but not even close to demonstrate that they have saturated the market let alone across the province

I like the Euro model of soccer being community based. York 9 and Forge aren't making a dent in TFC numbers. There's room for more across multiple division in Ontario. CPL must go where the people are.

At some point it would have to be done, but while the league is in it's infancy stages I think it would be better to go for places with a decent population but no team in anything. Like Halifax and Saskatoon.

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19 minutes ago, Ansem said:

That has nothing to do with CPL

Their business model was unsustainable (their own word). CPL's seems sound otherwise they wouldn't have gotten those media deals and sponsorship deals.

Women Soccer is massively on the rise with Euro stadiums selling out and our women's national team being constant draw wherever they go. Women's hockey? Not even close. Bad marketing, bad business model, low demand...

CPL's model is unknown but yes the partners seem solid. while the troubled nasl did have deals with under armour and new era, it's unlikely the money involved was anywhere near the media pro deal.

Women's hockey (on paper) should be big in Canada and the US. It's an Olympic high-light and gets tons of mainstream attention in both Canada and the US during Olympic years and women's sports are getting really big atm, it's just never had the money. It's a sport that would 100% benefit from being affiliation, I'm sure if the NHL was investing in it it would not die and would be on par with the WNBA.

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12 minutes ago, LatinInuk said:

We are in 2019 to be fair, and football has come a long way in Canada just as it has in the USA. The latter had leagues die and die again, but eventually a serious proposal in the MLS arrived and it's still there, and likely won't ever die now. The CanPL seems to be that in our case. In 10 years, I think there should be enough interest at least to keep it alive. We just need to be strategic about it. For example, I think having too many Ontario teams could be a mistake. Toronto FC has a strong follower base and having too many teams in the GTA area is risky.

Maybe worth bearing in mind that the GTA and Ontario are not the same thing. People in cities like K/W, St Catherines, London and Windsor are really not in Toronto's orbit when it comes to live entertainment to any huge extent. Would agree that York 9 will have to do very well before there are likely to be more GTA teams in a league like CanPL any time soon, because that's a different story. If the failure of women's hockey in pro terms shows anything it is that simply repeating ad nauseam that we need a national pro league over and over again complete with an Anthony Totera style raised voice and table thump ultimately doesn't get you anywhere. Pro level athletes are not owed a living. The entertainment product has to be there that can sustain a viable business plan.

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Posted (edited)
28 minutes ago, Ansem said:

Don't fall for the "North American" model of "1 team per market". The GTA can easily support multiple teams.

Without minimizing the following of TFC, we can't exaggerate it either. They have the attendance and TV is on the rise but not even close to demonstrate that they have saturated the market let alone across the province

I like the Euro model of soccer being community based. York 9 and Forge aren't making a dent in TFC numbers. There's room for more across multiple division in Ontario. CPL must go where the people are.

I disagree, I don't think a market like the GTA can support a number of healthy teams, especially with a monster like MLSE ******* with it. You're either depending on a slow add-on over years (like 20+) or being fine with teams drawing 3-5k people a game. Toronto isn't London and the GTA has been able to successfully support 1 non-MLSE hockey team with Oshawa (before you cry that's just juniors, remember the CHL pretty much do the numbers the CPL is aiming for and CPL might have a d2 in a similar position). You also never know if the GTA cities are going to be merged (which there's been some hints could be on the table)

Edited by matty

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24 minutes ago, matty said:

I disagree, I don't think a market like the GTA can support a number of healthy teams, especially with a monster like MLSE ******* with it. You're either depending on a slow add-on over years (like 20+) or being fine with teams drawing 3-5k people a game. Toronto isn't London and the GTA has been able to successfully support 1 non-MLSE hockey team with Oshawa (before you cry that's just juniors, remember the CHL pretty much do the numbers the CPL is aiming for and CPL might have a d2 in a similar position). You also never know if the GTA cities are going to be merged (which there's been some hints could be on the table)

I assure you I'm not crying.

My point stands but of course I'm talking multi-tier over the next decades. There's already D3 teams in Toronto:

  • Alliance United
  • Master's Futbol
  • Toronto Skillz

You have to think that "if" and "when" CPL is at a point where they have a coherent D1 to D3 with Pro-Rel, some cleaning regarding where the clubs are and where they might end up might get addressed. What's stopping one or some or even all teams to get investors and relocated+rebranded within Toronto to locations that makes sense and help them succeed in D2 or D3?

Politically, Toronto is still a "divided city". Don't be shocked that a "North York", "Scarborough" and "Etobicoke" club emerges out of those 3 or brand new if those the league makes it to that point.

 

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Posted (edited)
11 minutes ago, Ansem said:

I assure you I'm not crying.

My point stands but of course I'm talking multi-tier over the next decades. There's already D3 teams in Toronto:

  • Alliance United
  • Master's Futbol
  • Toronto Skillz

You have to think that "if" and "when" CPL is at a point where they have a coherent D1 to D3 with Pro-Rel, some cleaning regarding where the clubs are and where they might end up might get addressed. What's stopping one or some or even all teams to get investors and relocated+rebranded within Toronto to locations that makes sense and help them succeed in D2 or D3?

Politically, Toronto is still a "divided city". Don't be shocked that a "North York", "Scarborough" and "Etobicoke" club emerges out of those 3 or brand new if those the league makes it to that point.

 

There's 4 d3 if you count TFC2. As were talking decades, there's a little more room but the issues of how big they can be and can you over come being lower tier in Toronto are still massive. Not even counting stadium issues, before you say modular remember this is a city that's pretty cheap and loves its greenery, building even a modular stadium would be a pain for any potential owner wanting Scarborough or Etobicoke (and honestly I think a Scarborough team would be a hit)

Also by GTA cities merged I mean like Peel Region becomes the city of Peel (Mississauga and Brampton no longer exist, dun dun dunnnnnnnnn)

Edited by matty

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9 minutes ago, matty said:

There's 4 d3 if you count TFC2. As were talking decades, there's a little more room but the issues of how big they can be and can you over come being lower tier in Toronto are still massive. Not even counting stadium issues, before you say modular remember this is a city that's pretty cheap and loves its greenery, building even a modular stadium would be a pain for any potential owner wanting Scarborough or Etobicoke (and honestly I think a Scarborough team would be a hit)

We can't predict the future so we'll see. All I'm saying is that it's doable and possible if there a bigger soccer culture post 2026, which makes the World Cup in Canada so crucial for the success of the league

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Just now, Ansem said:

We can't predict the future so we'll see. All I'm saying is that it's doable and possible if there a bigger soccer culture post 2026, which makes the World Cup in Canada so crucial for the success of the league

i agree it's doable just a multi decade project.

anyways poor cwhl, should have just merged with nwhl. anyways now that there's only one i wonder if the nhl will get behind it, iirc correctly the fact there were competing leagues deterred the nhl from investing

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The problem with the CWHL was obviously travel costs and attendance.  No team can live on attendance of 150 per game.  It’s worse if your flying from Toronto to China for the game.

It just wasn’t a viable league with fan demand at those levels unfortunately.

Maybe one or 2 teams can play in the other semi pro women’s league.

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2 hours ago, matty said:

CPL's model is unknown but yes the partners seem solid. while the troubled nasl did have deals with under armour and new era, it's unlikely the money involved was anywhere near the media pro deal.

Women's hockey (on paper) should be big in Canada and the US. It's an Olympic high-light and gets tons of mainstream attention in both Canada and the US during Olympic years and women's sports are getting really big atm, it's just never had the money. It's a sport that would 100% benefit from being affiliation, I'm sure if the NHL was investing in it it would not die and would be on par with the WNBA.

Are they really? I still only see women's tennis getting the same respect as the men's game. WNBA I'm pretty sure hangs on by a thread.....barely at that.

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Posted (edited)
13 minutes ago, Macksam said:

Are they really? I still only see women's tennis getting the same respect as the men's game. WNBA I'm pretty sure hangs on by a thread.....barely at that.

MMA women are a solid draw, cycling is seeing a similar level deal of attention to men's (outside of the big 3), women's soccer is a rising draw, skating and curling are still getting a solid amount of attention. a lot of analyst see the wnba as in very good shape drawing like 8k on average to games, paying $40-120k a player, and tennis as you state does very well. not everything sees the same viewership or pay outs but all have seen massive increases in attention from media and viewership in about the last 15 years (most say tennis is why but i say MMA did it)

Edited by matty

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, matty said:

MMA women are a solid draw, cycling is seeing a similar level deal of attention to men's, women's soccer is a rising draw, skating and curling are still getting a solid amount of attention. a lot of analyst see the wnba as in very good shape drawing like 8k on average to games, paying $40-120k a player, and tennis as you state does very well

Yes, Curling and figure skating is also on the same level as the men's game imo....probably even higher than the men. 

To me this is just the status quo, nothing has changed except for the novelty item that is women's MMA, which is born out of the novelty that is MMA, a sport that hit its peak in 2010 and has been on a decline ever since. 

Edited by Macksam

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2 hours ago, Macksam said:

Are they really? I still only see women's tennis getting the same respect as the men's game. WNBA I'm pretty sure hangs on by a thread.....barely at that.

Volleyball too... although that's not as big in Canada as it is here in Peru.

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Posted (edited)
11 hours ago, Macksam said:

Yes, Curling and figure skating is also on the same level as the men's game imo....probably even higher than the men. 

To me this is just the status quo, nothing has changed except for the novelty item that is women's MMA, which is born out of the novelty that is MMA, a sport that hit its peak in 2010 and has been on a decline ever since. 

I'd say your right that MMA peaked in 2010~ but it's remained massive (maybe bigger than before in terms of money made) and women's bouts are treated serious and they do draw there (I'd guess there's almost as many stable main event women as men right now, the guys don't seem to catch on with fans often while the women usually stick around in the scene longer).

The growth of the WNBA has been able to find stability which many didn't see happening and they're finally getting paid for TV iirc and teams are in the black. Teams sports are likely the most mainstream but also most difficult to break into. You could likely call the WNBA a small success and I think other women's league could follow it's partnership with the NBA.

Women's cycling, boarding and skiing are seeing increase broadcasts views thanks to stuff like Red Bull TV giving a platform. They've actually helped boost sales of women's gear. Interest in women's singles sports this decade has actually caused a big boom for a number of snowsport and bicycle companies.

Women's soccer is also doing well in Europe as Ansem stated.

Edited by matty

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This really is an interesting debate, but it certainly relates to the market of hockey in Canada, and the level to it is saturated. 

Aside from the NHL, of course there are a few other pro teams from the AHL/ECHL, and Quebec Minor pro. There is major junior (WHL/OHL/QMJHL) and Junior A leagues everywhere as well. In addition, Junior B leagues are around undernealth this as well. This is also further complemented by Major Midget and other high levels of minor hockey. The Canadian national women's team regularly plays junior b/junior a/major midget teams and typically falls in as a good junior b team in terms of calibre. Therefore, a pro league of women with the major talent distributed would be slightly lower (Jr. B/Major Midget). So, as a fan, if they were going to consider putting a team in Victoria, BC. I have the choice of one WHL team, two Junior A teams, four Junior B teams, and a Major Midget league team. This is the case everywhere. It costs about 8 dollars for Jr. B, the level equivalent. Obviously, no one in junior gets paid, in fact, the players pay the team. (I paid 1000 in fees to play over ten years ago). Therefore, I can see how a league where you are trying to play players a living wage has major concerns in the business model.  CPL has the benefit of a market that is not at all filled with options for watching locally. 

 

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Posted (edited)

I see a new American gridiron football league just suspended operations as well:

https://www.cbssports.com/aaf/news/aaf-operations-reportedly-suspended-leagues-future-in-doubt-after-eight-games-of-first-season/

Usually doesn't take long to be able to tell which way the wind is blowing with a startup operation. It was good to see CanPL go low budget on salaries, because it limits the danger of owners getting cold feet over the extent of the financial losses they are facing.

Edited by BringBackTheBlizzard

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