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John's Herd vs. Holger's Heros


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Back in 2000, the Canadian Men's National Team under Holger Osieck was riding a 15-game undefeated steak, which included winning the 2000 Gold Cup, going into the 2002 World Cup semi-final qualifying round, and everyone was higher than the arsehole of an eagle about our chances of making it to the Hex. Well, we all remember what happened next.

Edmonton Will Host T and T Game

Posted on 13 June 2000 in Men's National Team

Ottawa, Ontario - The Canadian Soccer Association is pleased to formally announce the opening match of Canada's Men's World Cup team semi-final play vs Trinidad & Tobago will be held at Edmonton's Commonwealth Stadium on Sunday July 16 at 6:00 pm local time.

We are pleased to return to the City of Edmonton and to Commonwealth Stadium for this critical opening match against one of the most improved and exciting teams in our Confederation, stated CSA President Jim Fleming. We know this will be a most challenging round for all four teams and we are confident of our chances to be one of the two squads to emerge from this round on November 15 when play is complete.

The possibility of staging this match was confirmed last week when stadium authorities guaranteed a natural grass pitch of at least 64 meters in width would be in existence.

Local Organising Committee Chair John Gill, a prominent Edmonton lawyer with both soccer and corporate connections, has confirmed significant interest in the match within the soccer community. I am very pleased with the reactions so far with our initial preparations for this game, confirmed Gill. With Canada as defending Confederation Champion and now riding a 15-game unbeaten string during the past year, the timing is perfect to stage this game during the peak of summer.

Barring unforeseen injuries, Canada is expected to be at full strength for this critical opening game against a T&T side which should feature the likes Dwight Yorke, the Manchester United striker who is generally regarded as one of the top goalscorers in the world today. An interesting note is the possibility of three club teammates potentially facing each other; goalkeepers Craig Forrest and Shaka Hislop from West Ham United, Jim Brennan and Stern John from Nottingham Forest and Paul Fenwick and Russell Latapy from Hibernian of Scotland.

CSA is also pleased to announce attractive first-come/first served ticket prices for the match which are all now available via Ticketmaster. Early bird prices until Canada Day for the best seats in the stadium are available for $19 (plus city surcharges and GST), group discounts are available at 15%.

So what's different this time around? Is the timing any more perfect this time around?

Canada - New Zealand 1-0

Canada - U.S. Virgin Islands 8-0

Canada - Dominica 5-0

Canada - St. Kitts & Nevis 1-0

Canada - French Guiana

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3 hours ago, jpg75 said:

A 15 game win streak vs. a 4 game win streak. Kind of reaching, aren't you?

Talk about reaching. Give your head a shake, buddy. We have never been that good. It was a 15 game unbeaten streak, not a 15 game win streak. However, that 15 game streak did include some very impressive results against some real competition, i.e. the Gold Cup wins over at the time #12 ranked Mexico and #25 ranked Colombia. And to put that into perspective, the current 4 game win streak was against:

#119 ranked New Zealand

#202 ranked U.S. Virgin Islands

#178 ranked Dominica

#134 ranked St. Kitts & Nevis

Action and results speak louder than Herdman's bold words! Let's just take this one game at a time and see how we do against un-ranked French Guiana this weekend.

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5 minutes ago, dyslexic nam said:

Robert, you have a very different understanding of what it means to be a Canadian soccer supporter than I do. 

I genuinely feel bad for you.

That's okay Dys. I respect your right to have a different understanding.

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I’ll bite. 

I’ll tell you what the problem was back in 2000, I remember it fondly. We rolled out a steel drum band and the red carpet for Trinidad and basically gave them an extra home game. Then Dwight Yorke showed up and scored. We lost 2-0 that game and at Azteca. We couldn’t win in Panama (0-0 draw) and tied Mexico at a cold varsity 0-0 after Corazzin hit the post but by then we were already out. The game before in Trinidad we choked and lost 4-0. It comes down to away games and a lack of talent. We won with holger because of sound defence and the counter (see Richard Hastings). 

 

Even though I’ve been beat down many times, we have more talent and frankly a more intimidating home atmosphere than we had before. 

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1 hour ago, Robert said:

Talk about reaching. Give your head a shake, buddy. We have never been that good. It was a 15 game unbeaten streak, not a 15 game win streak. However, that 15 game streak did include some very impressive results against some real competition, i.e. the Gold Cup wins over at the time #12 ranked Mexico and #25 ranked Colombia. And to put that into perspective, the current 4 game win streak was against:

#119 ranked New Zealand

#202 ranked U.S. Virgin Islands

#178 ranked Dominica

#134 ranked St. Kitts & Nevis

Action and results speak louder than Herdman's bold words! Let's just take this one game at a time and see how we do against un-ranked French Guiana this weekend.

Van't Schip, Van't Ship. Potato, Tomato. You're still reaching. I'm not a Herdman fan, but let's give the guy a fucking break until he at least does something that warrants shitting on him.

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16 minutes ago, jpg75 said:

Van't Schip, Van't Ship. Potato, Tomato. You're still reaching. I'm not a Herdman fan, but let's give the guy a fucking break until he at least does something that warrants shitting on him.

Yeah, I get that people don't like the way the hiring took place.  I am one of them.  But until he has done something obviously bad, the 'torches and pitchforks' approach to Herdman seems way premature.  For sure - if he shags it at the Gold Cup or fails to make the hex (or whatever) for 2022, then by all means let him have it.  But this thread is, what... criticizing him for winning his first four matches in charge?  Would it be better if we had not won those games...?

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3 hours ago, Alex said:

I’ll bite. 

I’ll tell you what the problem was back in 2000, I remember it fondly. We rolled out a steel drum band and the red carpet for Trinidad and basically gave them an extra home game. Then Dwight Yorke showed up and scored. We lost 2-0 that game and at Azteca. We couldn’t win in Panama (0-0 draw) and tied Mexico at a cold varsity 0-0 after Corazzin hit the post but by then we were already out. The game before in Trinidad we choked and lost 4-0. It comes down to away games and a lack of talent. We won with holger because of sound defence and the counter (see Richard Hastings). 

 

Even though I’ve been beat down many times, we have more talent and frankly a more intimidating home atmosphere than we had before. 

I was there too. Drove all the way from Vancouver. The steel drum show is the reason I have never traveled to another CSA out of town match. For me it was Angus Eve's long range drive beating Onstad, that knocked us out of the World Cup. I had already bought a ticket to Varsity for the match against Mexico. Never went. Still have that un-used ticket. I pretty sure it was the last match played at Varsity. On TV it looked like the field was something better suited for mud-wrestling.

Anyhow, there's a reason we are playing against teams ranked #119, #134, #178, and #202 in the world. That's an average of #158.25 in the world! Now it is my understanding, if you have a rookie head coach whose never done anything in the men's game expect win 4 matches against countries ranked #158.25 in the world, and he starts spouting off to the national media that HE guarantees that under HIS guidance Canada will qualify for the 2022 World Cup Final, then we've got a serious problem.

Yes, we have some very promising young talent this time around and that gives me hope for the future. Unfortunately for this young talent, the CSA has decided to provide them with an unproven coach who has next to nothing to offer. Herdman will not know what to do when that crucial moment comes, where a coach has to make a key-decision on the spot. He just doesn't have the experience to do so. I'm sure a player like Alphonso Davies will concur with me, that John Herdman is pretty Mickey Mouse compared to coaches likes of Niko Kovač, Robert Kovac and Peter Hermann, and that fact sure as shit deflates a lot of my hope for the future. 

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1 hour ago, Robert said:

I was there too. Drove all the way from Vancouver. The steel drum show is the reason I have never traveled to another CSA out of town match. For me it was Angus Eve's long range drive beating Onstad, that knocked us out of the World Cup. I had already bought a ticket to Varsity for the match against Mexico. Never went. Still have that un-used ticket. I pretty sure it was the last match played at Varsity. On TV it looked like the field was something better suited for mud-wrestling.

Anyhow, there's a reason we are playing against teams ranked #119, #134, #178, and #202 in the world. That's an average of #158.25 in the world! Now it is my understanding, if you have a rookie head coach whose never done anything in the men's game expect win 4 matches against countries ranked #158.25 in the world, and he starts spouting off to the national media that HE guarantees that under HIS guidance Canada will qualify for the 2022 World Cup Final, then we've got a serious problem.

Yes, we have some very promising young talent this time around and that gives me hope for the future. Unfortunately for this young talent, the CSA has decided to provide them with an unproven coach who has next to nothing to offer. Herdman will not know what to do when that crucial moment comes, where a coach has to make a key-decision on the spot. He just doesn't have the experience to do so. I'm sure a player like Alphonso Davies will concur with me, that John Herdman is pretty Mickey Mouse compared to coaches likes of Niko Kovač, Robert Kovac and Peter Hermann, and that fact sure as shit deflates a lot of my hope for the future. 

This is your best post in years. 

I must agree that Herdman's lack of experience in the kind of pressure situations the team will be facing in WCQ is the second biggest problem we have, our centre backs being the first. However:

In 2013 the CSA hired one of the most expensive coaches they could afford.  Floro had recent Concacaf and International experience in addition to his Real Madrid heydays.  On paper, he looked excellent. 

In 2016, needing a point in Honduras to make the Hex... we were down by a goal with 30 minutes left... who does Floro bring on as we fight for our lives?  Ledgerwood and Straith.  We had 2 forwards, Jackson and Haber who were left on the bench.  And most importantly, Osorio and Johnson were not called, though both were healthy and wanted to be there.  Either Floro was ON CRACK, or he choked, or his attitude, methology, gameplan and man management was deeply flawed from the very beginning.   

Floro was experienced in big game situations, and still shat the bed and screwed us.

Bottom line is sometimes experienced coaches suck, and good inexperienced coaches have their break through seasons and moments all the time.  Perhaps this is Herdman's moment.  Perhaps the stars will align. 

Best of all, thanks to this upcoming Gold Cup, and the Nations League in the fall, we won't have to wait until qualifying to find out what Herdman is really made of. 

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@Robert , I applaud you for starting a thread that:

-Is not in ALL CAPS in the title

-That doesn't have an article embedded in a weird formatting. Sometimes the things you post are unreadable, especially on the mobile version. 

Please continue to post things this way. 

Also do not be afraid of posting URL links instead of embedding long passages of texts (or entire articles).

 

...carry on.

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6 hours ago, BrennanFan said:

This is your best post in years. 

I must agree that Herdman's lack of experience in the kind of pressure situations the team will be facing in WCQ is the second biggest problem we have, our centre backs being the first. However:

In 2013 the CSA hired one of the most expensive coaches they could afford.  Floro had recent Concacaf and International experience in addition to his Real Madrid heydays.  On paper, he looked excellent. 

In 2016, needing a point in Honduras to make the Hex... we were down by a goal with 30 minutes left... who does Floro bring on as we fight for our lives?  Ledgerwood and Straith.  We had 2 forwards, Jackson and Haber who were left on the bench.  And most importantly, Osorio and Johnson were not called, though both were healthy and wanted to be there.  Either Floro was ON CRACK, or he choked, or his attitude, methology, gameplan and man management was deeply flawed from the very beginning.   

Floro was experienced in big game situations, and still shat the bed and screwed us.

Bottom line is sometimes experienced coaches suck, and good inexperienced coaches have their break through seasons and moments all the time.  Perhaps this is Herdman's moment.  Perhaps the stars will align. 

Best of all, thanks to this upcoming Gold Cup, and the Nations League in the fall, we won't have to wait until qualifying to find out what Herdman is really made of. 

Floro may indeed have been one of the, if not the most expensive coaches ever hired by the CSA, but if you're going to make that kind of an investment in a coach, shouldn't he at the very least be able to communicate effectively in English, French, or both. If you listen to the interview below, Floro sounds like a newly arrived immigrant with very little command of the English language. Now how is someone like that going instruct one of our young substitute going into a crucial World Cup qualifier? The player already knows we need score one or two more goals, when what he really needs is on the spot instructions of the role has to play.  Obviously, those who interviewed and hired must have been so impressed with Floro's CV that they completely overlooked the need of our players.

 

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The one thing that Benito Floro,  Holger Osieck and almost everyone else who has ever coached the Canadian Men's National Team has in common is the fact that they all agree Canada has never had a bona fide goal scorer, no disrespect to Alex Bunbury intended. Now that we are finally blessed with a kid who's got some real moves, speed and knows how to put the ball in the net, isn't this the time for the CSA to loosen the purse strings and hire an experienced coach who is capable of communicating effectively in English, French, or both? I mean if this isn't the time, then somebody please tell me when is it? Look, it's one thing to boost the confidence of your players by telling them that you believe they have a real shot at qualifying for the World Cup Final in 2022. However, it's quite something else saying that to the national media and putting unnecessary pressure on our young players.

John, if you're listening, lesson #1, shut the fuck up! We've heard it all before. Many times. Just let the results speak for themselves.

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51 minutes ago, BrennanFan said:

What's done is done.  You can't seriously expect the CSA to fire Herdman right now. 

If we don't make it out of the group stage, and we are relegated from Group A of the Concacaf Nations League, Herdman should be fired.

Until then, there's not much use pointing out the obvious in multiple threads. 

What has always irked me about the CSA is that not once in its history has it ever fired a coach in the middle of a World Cup campaign that is obviously headed in the wrong direction. In other words, the CSA has never, I repeat never, tried to salvage a World Cup campaign once its begun. And I just don't buy the excuse that the CSA doesn't have the funds to do so. A World Cup campaign should be Job #1 for the CSA, and there MUST be a "Plan B" in place right from the start if "Plan A" isn't working out. At least that's my opinion.

Edited by Robert
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12 hours ago, Robert said:

Now that we are finally blessed with a kid who's got some real moves, speed and knows how to put the ball in the net, isn't this the time for the CSA to loosen the purse strings and hire an experienced coach who is capable of communicating effectively in English, French, or both? I mean if this isn't the time, then somebody please tell me when is it? Look, it's one thing to boost the confidence of your players by telling them that you believe they have a real shot at qualifying for the World Cup Final in 2022. However, it's quite something else saying that to the national media and putting unnecessary pressure on our young players.

John, if you're listening, lesson #1, shut the fuck up! We've heard it all before. Many times. Just let the results speak for themselves.

So you want a coach who is good at communicating and shuts up?

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Should herdman  deserve to be fired now - - no 

has herdman been really tested - no 

is the CSA protecting Herdman from looking bad - yes I believe so.

my question is - if herdman fails to  get to the same  position at the gold cup as last year- should he be replaced? I worry the CSA won’t pull the Trigger because they are worried about looking like idiots. But they should  realize they already look like idiots when they hired herdman because there was no vetting. 

I’m curious  how long of a lease does Herdman have with the CSA

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2 hours ago, SpecialK said:

Should herdman  deserve to be fired now - - no 

has herdman been really tested - no 

is the CSA protecting Herdman from looking bad - yes I believe so.

my question is - if herdman fails to  get to the same  position at the gold cup as last year- should he be replaced? I worry the CSA won’t pull the Trigger because they are worried about looking like idiots. But they should  realize they already look like idiots when they hired herdman because there was no vetting. 

I’m curious  how long of a lease does Herdman have with the CSA

Yeah, they didn't vet him, despite having him working for them for 7 years.

Should they fire him if Canada doesn't get out of the group in the Gold Cup? I don't know, maybe. Let's hope the CSA doesn't have to make that decision because the team does well.

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John's Herd, Man. That's great, not sure about the rest of the opening post from Roberto there. If anything, I think the "false dawn" repeated itself leading up to that WCQ at BMO Field against Jamaica (2008?) when Onstad punched it into his own net. Things went downhill from there.

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Canada's 15 game undefeated streak under Holger Osieck:

(#01)  1999-09-02  Canada - Jamaica 1-0 (Brennan)(Friendly)

(#02)  1999-10-06  Canada - Cuba 0-0 (Gold Cup Qualifier)

(#03)  1999-10-08  Canada - El Salvador 2-1 (Corazzin, Fletcher)(Gold Cup Qualifier)

(#04)  1999-10-10  Canada - Haiti 2-1 (Corazzin 2)(Gold Cup Qualifier)

(#05)  2000-01-08  Canada - Trinidad & Tobago 0-0 (Friendly)

(#06)  2000-01-11  Canada - Bermuda 2-0 (Nash 2)(Friendly)

(#07)  2000-02-13  Canada - Costa Rica 2-2 (Corazzin 2)(Gold Cup)

(#08)  2000-02-15  Canada - Korea Republic 0-0 (Gold Cup)

(#09)  2000-02-20  Canada - Mexico 2-1 (Corazzin, Hastings)(Gold Cup)

(#10)  2000-02-24  Canada - Trinidad & Tobago 1-0 (Watson)(Gold Cup)

(#11)  2000-02-27  Canada - Colombia 2-0 (de Vos, Corazzin)(Gold Cup)

(#12)  2000-05-27  Canada - Trinidad & Tobago 1-0 (Clarke)(Friendly)

(#13)  2000-05-30  Canada - Honduras 2-1 (Peschisolido, McKenna)(Friendly)

(#14)  2000-06-04  Canada - Cuba 1-0 (de Vos)(World Cup Qualifier)

(#15)  2000-06-11  Canada - Cuba 0-0 (World Cup Qualifier)

All 15 matches above were against much stronger opponents than anything Herdman has thus far coached against. Did Osieck at any time make such a ridiculous guarantee as qualifying for the 2002 World Cup Final, even though the success he was enjoying up to that point may have led an ego like Herdman's to do so? After Herdman's unprofessional and disrespectful claim, I would say he should be sacked immediately for anything less than Canada winning the 2019 Gold Cup this summer. After all, winning the Gold Cup should be a far easier task than qualifying for the 2022 World Cup Final, right John?

(#01)  2018-03-24  Canada - New Zealand 1-0 (Ricketts)(Friendly)

(#02)  2018-09-09  Canada - U.S. Virgin Islands 8-0 (Osorio, Cavallini 2, David 2, Hoilett, Larin 2)(Nations League Qualifier)

(#03)  2018-10-16  Canada - Dominica 5-0 (David, Hoilett, Cavallini 2, Larin)(Nations League Qualifier)

(#04)  2018-11-18  Canada - St. Kitts & Nevis 1-0 (Hutchinson)(Nations League Qualifier)

(#05)  2019-03-24  Canada - French Guiana (Nations League Qualifier)

We're running out of minnows to play. Will John's Herd break the Hogan Heroes streak?

Edited by Robert
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