TFC 2019 Season

[Free kick]

22 hours ago, Gian-Luca said:

Under the current interpretation of the offside rule that goal wasn't offside. Let's get some facts straight here. He scored 15 goals in parts of 3.5 seasons with the big club, not 11 in 5 years. He played a total of 14 minutes combined in his first two seasons for the first team as a teenager so to call those two first season as full "years" seems a little disingenuous on the stats front. This was the only (half) season where he was with the big club the whole season (except for one game for TFC2 he played this  year, in which he scored in). As for the notion that he only or mostly scored unimportant goals, I don't think that stands up to analysis. In his first year he scored his first goal early in the 2nd half against Orlando which at that point tied up the game before TFC eventually lost on a 97th minute bogus PK. The other goals he scored that year were the tying goals against Columbus and the team's only goal in a 1-1 draw vs. Seattle as well as what turned out to be the winning and insurance goals in the Canadian Championship semi-final against Montreal. That's 5 for 5 in terms of being significant goals, not bad for one's de facto rookie year.  I don't believe his goals for the big club in 2017 were all that significant (I seem to recall one was the final one in a 5-0 drubbing against Columbus but the other was an insurance marker in a 2-0 victory over DC so hardly insignificant - but he also drew a key PK in NYC that Vazquez converted to give TFC a 2-2 draw and pretty much seal up first place for them). In 2018 one of his two goals in the league was a 25 yard game-tying strike against KC on the road while this year of the three other goals he got in league play (out of four), two were game tying goals and one was a game winner. I don't think the claim that most of his goals were "garbage-minute" goals (ie. scored when the result was already determined) holds up to factual scrutiny.

This season he remains, at the time of writing, in sole possession of 3rd place in club scoring with 5 goals in all competitions, 4 in league play. The only two players who are ahead of him are Pozuelo & Altidore, who are also each paid several million dollars more than he is and should be expected to have many more goals than he does. Despite two other strikers (Akinola & Boyd) who combined only have one fifth of the number of goals (one of whom makes $100k more than Hamilton does) that Hamilton, we instead got rid of the only striker this season who actually seemed to score big goals coming off the bench (we got rid of our previous super-sub- also a Canadian - in the off-season). Which fair enough, means that because his stats are actually pretty good & he has a habit of scoring important goals, he has some value so we could get someone decent in return which the other two can't do (at least, not yet for Akinola who is only 20). However Mullins did not give me any confidence that he will be "super-sub" difference maker from what I saw in his rather poors TFC debut, making think - initially at least - that TFC's striker depth is now worse than it was before the trade. We probably need a 2nd striker now more than we did before we traded Hamilton, because after Altidore goes off the field, there's no one left now among the strikers that I have any confidence might get a goal off the bench

Regarding the offside call.   I had never heard a soccer broadcast crew (broadcasting to a home audience) object to a ref's call, that benefited the home team,  to that extend.  Usually, as is the case with home town broadcasters in any sport,  you will hear these kind of bad ref calls that benefit the home side mentioned sotto voce for about five seconds (IF AT ALL) and then they move on.   But that one was unique,  they talked about it at length and even into the intermission or post game.   Steven Caldwell's point was that the defender could only do what was natural and that's exactly what he did.  So, as you said,  technically speaking its the right call but only in the same way that Erin Mcleod was technically guilty of holding the ball for more than six second in that semi final game at the Olympics.  Both were technically correct but still bad calls.    

Regarding the 3.5 years versus 5 years.   BTW i double checked before posting that, so ok lets say 3.5 but my point doesn't change and I could have said it was six years but that would have been unfair because the stats show that he played only a minute.    But he was on the club for during this entire five years time,  you don't just get to prove your stuff during games but also practices and scrimmages and pre season games and those voyageurs cup games.  stuff that we either didn't see or they don't show up in the stats.   It pretty safe to say that they have seen him and got a pretty damn good read.   i stand by my point,  if he had gone to Europe (or even another MLS team) there is no chance that they keep someone around (much less a foreigner)  that long unless there is substantial improvement each year.  They have to have really wanted him to succeed to keep him around that long.  We can go back the 12 years and find a countless number of college super draft picks, for example, who were lucky to even get a year and/or less than 100 minutes to prove themselves.  

Also,  its not just Vanney and TFC who see things differently than what your alluding to.   Another coach, John Herdman,  seems to see things in same manner as Vanney as witness by the fact that Hamilton didn't get any recent invites.   I really cant argue the fact that Anthony Jackson Hamel (who is only two years older and has played comparable minutes in MLS) is more deserving of a callup.   And their coach, Remi Garde,  has been much more inclined ( like many European coaches) to call out players in the media.  He did call out AJH publicly when explaining why Jackson Hamel wasn't starting ahead of Mancuso (i think it was).   when it comes to this stuff, Vanney is softy in the mold of the North american pro sports coaches (especially NHL coaches),  they dont throw their players under the bus, rather they do it with carefully crafted words that force you to read between the lines to that fact that this or that player got called out.   I have some recollection of the recent Vanney quote in regards to Hamilton. it was in reference to his positioning and ability to read the play and react and recall thinking: "Yes"  that is exactly what i have been seeing all along!.    The players cant seem to find him on the pitch and he would score more often if he got more chances but he doesn't get many chance.  You can say a fwd is poor when they fail too often to convert on their chances,  but it worst if you are not getting chances.    if saying that is akin to throwing someone under a bus,  then what would we conclude of Remi Garde's style?and of what he said of AJH?.    If Hamilton would shown me something comparable to what we see from AJH (who has been called up to the MNT several times) over the same period, we would not be be having this discussion.   

i have a distinct memory of one of Hamiltons first ever goals for TFC.   i was convinced that this guy had a real future in the game.  there was the effortless calm and coolness to it.  it looked like the ease and instinct of an assassin.  Got  the ball at the top of the box and picked the corner with a clean strike making it look simple.   Unfortunately, i dont think i ever saw that again.  More  importantly,  there was no improvement or hint of having learned something new from year to year.

Edited July 23, 2019 by Free kick

[Gian-Luca]

1 hour ago, Free kick said:

Regarding the offside call.   I had never heard a soccer broadcast crew (broadcasting to a home audience) object to a ref's call, that benefited the home team,  to that extend.  Usually, as is the case with home town broadcasters in any sport,  you will hear these kind of bad ref calls that benefit the home side mentioned sotto voce for about five seconds (IF AT ALL) and then they move on.   But that one was unique,  they talked about it at length and even into the intermission or post game.   Steven Caldwell's point was that the defender could only do what was natural and that's exactly what he did.  So, as you said,  technically speaking its the right call but only in the same way that Erin Mcleod was technically guilty of holding the ball for more than six second in that semi final game at the Olympics.  Both were technically correct but still bad calls.    

Regarding the 3.5 years versus 5 years.   BTW i double checked before posting that, so ok lets say 3.5 but my point doesn't change and I could have said it was six years but that would have been unfair because the stats show that he played only a minute.    But he was on the club for during this entire five years time,  you don't just get to prove your stuff during games but also practices and scrimmages and pre season games and those voyageurs cup games.  stuff that we either didn't see or they don't show up in the stats.   It pretty safe to say that they have seen him and got a pretty damn good read.   i stand by my point,  if he had gone to Europe (or even another MLS team) there is no chance that they keep someone around (much less a foreigner)  that long unless there is substantial improvement each year.  They have to have really wanted him to succeed to keep him around that long.  We can go back the 12 years and find a countless number of college super draft picks, for example, who were lucky to even get a year and/or less than 100 minutes to prove themselves.  

Also,  its not just Vanney and TFC who see things differently than what your alluding to.   Another coach, John Herdman,  seems to see things in same manner as Vanney as witness by the fact that Hamilton didn't get any recent invites.   I really cant argue the fact that Anthony Jackson Hamel (who is only two years older and has played comparable minutes in MLS) is more deserving of a callup.   And their coach, Remi Garde,  has been much more inclined ( like many European coaches) to call out players in the media.  He did call out AJH publicly when explaining why Jackson Hamel wasn't starting ahead of Mancuso (i think it was).   when it comes to this stuff, Vanney is softy in the mold of the North american pro sports coaches (especially NHL coaches),  they dont throw their players under the bus, rather they do it with carefully crafted words that force you to read between the lines to that fact that this or that player got called out.   I have some recollection of the recent Vanney quote in regards to Hamilton. it was in reference to his positioning and ability to read the play and react and recall thinking: "Yes"  that is exactly what i have been seeing all along!.    The players cant seem to find him on the pitch and he would score more often if he got more chances but he doesn't get many chance.  You can say a fwd is poor when they fail to often to convert on their chances,  but it worst if you are not getting chances.    if saying that is akin to throwing someone under a bus,  then what would we conclude of Remi Garde's style?and of what he said of AJH?.    If Hamilton would shown me something comparable to what we see from AJH (who has been called up to the MNT several times) over the same period, we would not be be having this discussion.   

i have a disctinct memory of one of Hamiltons first ever goals for TFC.   i was convinced that this guy had a real future in the game.  there was the effortless calm and coolness to it.  it looked like the ease and instinct of an assassin.  Got  the ball at the top of the box and picked the corner with a clean strike making it look simple.   Unfortunately, i dont think i ever saw that again.  More  importantly,  there was no improvement or hint of having learned something new from year to year.

To be honest I'm not sure what it is that you are having this discussion about anymore  - you keep referring back to the TFC having given him a chance to prove himself but nobody is arguing or has been stating otherwise that I can see. My point is that he was in fact in the process of taking the opportunity this year that he was given having progressed to the number 2 striker role ahead of another player who was signed ahead of him, for a higher salary and who was supposed to be the #2. Granted, that guy has been an utter disaster to maybe it's not saying much but even so the stats showed a clear progression this year for Hamilton - he set a personal high for goals scored in a season after just half a season and most of those were important goals on limited minutes, despite the suggestion that they were all "garbage-minute" ones (which is really the claim that I was refuting in my post). 3rd in team scoring at the time of the trade (and for that matter, still the case 3 games later). I think if a guy making $138K is that high on your club's scoring charts when you are one of the highest spending teams in the league, then he's not the problem with your roster. Granted, if you think you've seen enough & use his progress this season to trade him to get a better striker in return to upgrade the position then as I said, fair enough (especially since you can't trade Boyd because nobody would be insane enough to want him) - but my other point is that the early signs are that it doesn't look like they have upgraded the position, and at best it's a like-for-like except that  looks like it has less depth in terms of a guy who might score an important goal off the bench which Hamilton did 3 times already this year. Oh, and he's 4 or 5 years older as well and we lost an international spot & TAM money in the process.  Now, it's only one half that Mullins has played, but my impression from watching is that I could see why Mullins wasn't able to crack the roster for one of the worst teams in the league and had only scored 1 goal in the past two years. Hopefully he will be able to re-write the script there for TFC's sake.

As for Herdman, I don't think he has much to do with this discussion. Nobody was arguing that Herdman should have called Hamilton ahead of Cavallini, David or Larin or heck, even Akindele who didn't get called either (and would be ahead of AJH in my books). Evidently I have more positive view of Hamilton's time at TFC than you do and even I have never argued that Herdman should have called him instead of those guys. I don't see what that has got to do with the issue at hand, which is whether Hamilton should have been traded for Mullins or dumped by TFC for a striker who's recent stats and performances suggest is currently less impressive than Hamilton is, but is more expensive? Are we going to argue that TFC should get rid of Laryea because Herdman didn't call him for the Gold Cup? Should TFC be starting Noble Okello ahead of Liam Fraser since Herdman called him but not Fraser? I assuming that this won't be argued because you can see the flaws in doing so. Vanney initially couldn't see the flaws in Ben Spencer's game when anyone who had seen Spencer play for more than 30 minutes could, lest any reminder be needed that everyone is capable of making mistakes on players.

Edited July 23, 2019 by Gian-Luca

[Bison44]

Free kicks original post on Hamilton had plenty of good points.  I just wish that same criteria would be brought to bear on other players on TFCs roster.  Been around 5 years, not a project anymore, stalled in their development, poor performance/barely serviceable, time to move on and let someone different and younger have a shot.  I'm sure we can think of a few like that, but they happen to be Vanneys pet projects 

[narduch]

Rumour that Boyd is on his way out

[Bison44]

10 minutes ago, narduch said:

Rumour that Boyd is on his way out

I hope there is an AND.....attached to that.  AND.......some other striker is coming in??  Please? That Skublak from Halifax looks like a beast, hold up, muscle type forward.  Vanney would like him.  

[Mikmacdo]

Boyds out and tfc are bring in a winger from ligue 1. Add in gallardo and were back in business!

[Bison44]

Where is everyone getting this from?

[Mikmacdo]

10 hours ago, Bison44 said:

Where is everyone getting this from?

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.sportsnet.ca/soccer/source-toronto-fc-looking-signing-french-winger-nicolas-benezet/sn-amp/

 

Perfect guy to mentor the shaff. 

Westburg

Laryea-omar-mavinga-morrow

Pozuelo-bradley-osorio

Gallardo-jozy-benezet

Delgado-auro-deleon-ciman-shaff-mullens on bench. 

[Gian-Luca]

We need another striker more than we need another winger given that they have already signed one. Who steps up the next time Jozy is injured (which is inevitable)? Mullins isn't good enough and Akinola isn't quite ready yet. Or is the plan to revert to the false 9 when that happens?

Edited July 29, 2019 by Gian-Luca

[Bison44]

9 minutes ago, Gian-Luca said:

We need another striker more than we need another winger given that they have already signed one. Who steps up the next time Jozy is injured (which is inevitable)? Mullins isn't good enough and Akinola isn't quite ready yet. Or is the plan to revert to the false 9 when that happens?

Vanney is so obessed with wingers I think he has forgotten about Jozy and his injuries.  And the one bench guy we had who was scoring will be riding the pine in Columbus, patiently waiting to tear up the CPL next year.  

[Mikmacdo]

37 minutes ago, Gian-Luca said:

We need another striker more than we need another winger given that they have already signed one. Who steps up the next time Jozy is injured (which is inevitable)? Mullins isn't good enough and Akinola isn't quite ready yet. Or is the plan to revert to the false 9 when that happens?

I thought about this too im thinking if jozy goes down pozuelo plays as a false 9 and benezet can be the attacking mid under him. 

[Big_M]

Toronto FC mutually part ways with former US international Terrence Boyd

https://www.mlssoccer.com/post/2019/07/29/toronto-fc-mutually-part-ways-former-us-international-terrence-boyd

[Gian-Luca]

https://www.tsn.ca/toronto-fc-signs-french-mf-nicolas-benezet-1.1343793

[BearcatSA]

Does this team still have Van der Wiel's contract eating up some of its cap space?

Edited July 29, 2019 by BearcatSA

[Gian-Luca]

8 minutes ago, BearcatSA said:

Does this team still have Van der Wiel's contract eating up some of its cap space?

My guess is that they don't, as otherwise I'm not sure where all this money against the cap to sign all of these TAM players is coming from. They also gave up TAM money in addition to Hamilton to get Mullins and still signed 3 TAM players in this window. VDW was a TAM player IIRC

Everything is shaping up nicely for Altidore to get a season-ending injury and for TFC to play with 4 wingers and no strikers on the field for the rest of the year......

[Mikmacdo]

1 hour ago, Gian-Luca said:

My guess is that they don't, as otherwise I'm not sure where all this money against the cap to sign all of these TAM players is coming from. They also gave up TAM money in addition to Hamilton to get Mullins and still signed 3 TAM players in this window. VDW was a TAM player IIRC

Everything is shaping up nicely for Altidore to get a season-ending injury and for TFC to play with 4 wingers and no strikers on the field for the rest of the year......

If jozy goes down this team has no shot. If any mls team loses a dp they probably have no shot either. 

[Bison44]

3 hours ago, Mikmacdo said:

If jozy goes down this team has no shot. If any mls team loses a dp they probably have no shot either. 

Yeah but our next guy in line is Akinola, who has 1 goal and is 19.  Lots of teams have 2 decent strikers and then back ups.   Our drop off is the worst its ever been, thank you Curtis, #missinghamiltonalready 

[Mikmacdo]

6 hours ago, Bison44 said:

Yeah but our next guy in line is Akinola, who has 1 goal and is 19.  Lots of teams have 2 decent strikers and then back ups.   Our drop off is the worst its ever been, thank you Curtis, #missinghamiltonalready 

Peruzza on tfc2 could be good. 

[Bison44]

6 hours ago, Mikmacdo said:

Peruzza on tfc2 could be good. 

If Vanney wouldnt play Hamilton, barely plays Akinola, why do you think he would play Peruzza?  

[Gian-Luca]

13 hours ago, Bison44 said:

Yeah but our next guy in line is Akinola, who has 1 goal and is 19.  Lots of teams have 2 decent strikers and then back ups.   Our drop off is the worst its ever been, thank you Curtis, #missinghamiltonalready 

Like Columbus for example - if their top US international striker goes down, I like their next two options better than anything we have left after Altidore

[AvroArrow]

23 hours ago, Big_M said:

Toronto FC mutually part ways with former US international Terrence Boyd

https://www.mlssoccer.com/post/2019/07/29/toronto-fc-mutually-part-ways-former-us-international-terrence-boyd

If I'm Boyd, I don't walk without a good sized cheque.  Who is going to sign up after this display for any where near what he was making with TFC?

[narduch]

38 minutes ago, AvroArrow said:

If I'm Boyd, I don't walk without a good sized cheque.  Who is going to sign up after this display for any where near what he was making with TFC?

He's already signed for a 3rd division German club

[Mikmacdo]

4 hours ago, Bison44 said:

If Vanney wouldnt play Hamilton, barely plays Akinola, why do you think he would play Peruzza?  

Well he is playing Shaffleburg a lot. If a player is good I believe he will play. 

[Bison44]

He went out of his way to play 1 striker formations and even no striker line ups.  He isnt giving any young strikers playing time, Shafflebourg is a winger and Vanney is on love with wingers.  2 different animals.  

[Obinna]

Any updates on the French winger? I really hope it gets done. A player who can play out wide or through the middle is needed. If Pozuelo takes a hit so does the teams creativity.