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Posted (edited)

I have to laugh at how var has been handled. No pun intended...because. 

Two of these "handlings" of the ball should have never been retroactively called penalties.

Isn't the threshold suppose to be clear and obvious? Neither of these were obvious, otherwise the ref would have caught them.

And ladies and gentlemen, that's the flaw with var. Clear and obvious is subjective right now.

For me, a clear and obvious hand ball in the box is someone punching or slapping the ball away whilst the ref is looking the other way. That should be the threshold for clear and obvious.

If you are going to work of the "clear and obvious" premise, create some examples and put them in the referee handbook.

Ex. Clear and obvious offsides must be a minimum of 1m (+/- 10cm) in order to trigger a review.

God, it's like they want to use var every chance they get. The goal should actually be to NOT use var. 

They are so focused on being "technically" correct that they are sucking the soul of the game.

Ha...there really is no limit on technology's soul-sucking ability, hey?

Just take public transit and see how many people are on their smartphones lol

Edited by Obinna

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I think it is perfectly possible for something to be clear and obvious but missed by the Ref. What if VAR had been used, for example, to send off Zidane for the infamous headbutt on Materazzi which was clear and obvious but the Ref didn't see since it was behind the play? So no problem for me in principle.

I think the issue for me is that VAR is trying to do things by the letter of the law when the rest of the game isn't called that way and the refs have a lot of discretion. It was the same with WWC where I thought Scotland got screwed when VAR let Argentina take the PK again when the keeper was at best a blade of grass off the line at the time of the spot kick and only a freeze-frame of digital video technology is even going to spot that. The two injury time pk's strike me as correct by the letter of the law but not correct from the context of the game and the events as they are happening. For the Pozuelo handball PK it's a different issue - I think it's a foul but it's not clear and obvious that it's inside the box - if anything it looks very likely that it is outside.

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If I have to listen to Vanney wax on about "wing" play and needing wingers I am going to scream..  He gets rid of Edwards, loans Telfer, and now this season Lareya and Shafflebourg sure seem like they have something to offer the big club.... and Curtis is probably scouring the USMNT roster for a aging winger we can overpay.   Has Vanney ever heard of bringing guys along?  Not just former Chivas players or his inlaws. Let Shafflebourg start and spend that salary cap money elsewhere.  

Fraiser will be glued to the bench once Bradley is back and for the life of me I think he is about 85% the player Bradly is.  At one hundredth the price.  

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1 hour ago, Bison44 said:

If I have to listen to Vanney wax on about "wing" play and needing wingers I am going to scream..  He gets rid of Edwards, loans Telfer, and now this season Lareya and Shafflebourg sure seem like they have something to offer the big club.... and Curtis is probably scouring the USMNT roster for a aging winger we can overpay.   Has Vanney ever heard of bringing guys along?  Not just former Chivas players or his inlaws. Let Shafflebourg start and spend that salary cap money elsewhere.  

Fraiser will be glued to the bench once Bradley is back and for the life of me I think he is about 85% the player Bradly is.  At one hundredth the price.  

I see a lot of fans giving Vanney credit for yesterday's line up. But it was almost like he did it out of desperation or was forced to finally play real wingers.

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3 hours ago, Gian-Luca said:

I think it is perfectly possible for something to be clear and obvious but missed by the Ref. What if VAR had been used, for example, to send off Zidane for the infamous headbutt on Materazzi which was clear and obvious but the Ref didn't see since it was behind the play? So no problem for me in principle.

I think the issue for me is that VAR is trying to do things by the letter of the law when the rest of the game isn't called that way and the refs have a lot of discretion. It was the same with WWC where I thought Scotland got screwed when VAR let Argentina take the PK again when the keeper was at best a blade of grass off the line at the time of the spot kick and only a freeze-frame of digital video technology is even going to spot that. The two injury time pk's strike me as correct by the letter of the law but not correct from the context of the game and the events as they are happening. For the Pozuelo handball PK it's a different issue - I think it's a foul but it's not clear and obvious that it's inside the box - if anything it looks very likely that it is outside.

This.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, narduch said:

I see a lot of fans giving Vanney credit for yesterday's line up. But it was almost like he did it out of desperation or was forced to finally play real wingers.

If it was out of desperation, he didn't let on in his post match interview. He made the tactics sound very deliberate rather than out of necessity.

Edited by Obinna

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The issue I have with VAR is how far back should you go back to review a play. On that 1st Atlanta PK the play had gone to the other end of field already. What would have happened if by chance TFC had scored on that play? I remember last year vs Chicago the play gone on for several minutes before they reviewed the situation and only because Schweinsteiger was on the ref the whole time.(It might have been Kelly then as well). If there is to be a review it should be immediate within 10 to 15 seconds.

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57 minutes ago, Obinna said:

If it was out of desperation, he didn't let on in his post match interview. He made the tactics sound very deliberate rather than out of necessity.

If Bradley, Jozy and Osorio were available, Fraser, Endoh and Shaffleborg would not have made the field.  Vanney talks a good talk, but he knows he is on the hotseat and his same old same old tactics arent going to work with the personel he has.  Boyd is a complete waste and he seems to not trust Akinola or Hamilton (who is the only striker other than Jozy to have some success this season).  

I'm still not exactly sure what Delgado brings to the table that a cheaper CDN couldnt?  Whatever role Delgado is in, one of Fraser, Shaffelborg, Lareya or Chapman could do the same thing, for a smaller cap hit.    

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3 hours ago, to70 said:

The issue I have with VAR is how far back should you go back to review a play. On that 1st Atlanta PK the play had gone to the other end of field already. What would have happened if by chance TFC had scored on that play? I remember last year vs Chicago the play gone on for several minutes before they reviewed the situation and only because Schweinsteiger was on the ref the whole time.(It might have been Kelly then as well). If there is to be a review it should be immediate within 10 to 15 seconds.

I believe the rule is that they do the check at the first stoppage in play. If TFC had scored their goal would have been disallowed - I believe that this has in fact already happened once in another MLS game though I can't remember which. And I think it is the same rule in the World Cup

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Posted (edited)

I agree that the usage term “clear and obvious” is the biggest flaw with VAR.   why don’t they just state instead that it’s a review mechanism used at that the discretion of the ref or refs who are off the pitch.  The example mentioned above about the ref missing something like a Zidane head butt would be the best example of a clear and obvious.  Ok but how many of those instances are there?  What’s happening is that it’s being used instead to review the many more numerous arbitrary calls.  And maybe that’s Ok.   But let’s call it what it is instead of this “clear and obvious” BS.

Another big problem is how it’s implemented and applied.  Here is an example,  a considerable amount of time had elapsed last night from when the hand ball foul on Pozuelo occurred  and when the decision was taken to stop the play to review it.  The play had shifted to Atlanta’s end of the pitch.  What would have happened if TFC would have scored?  Would the goal have stood? Imagine how awkward it would have looked to take away a goal in order to award a Pk (and goal on a PK) for an arbitrary decision from an off the pitch VAR official on an event that occurred maybe 3-5 minutes ago. 

The problem with soccer is FIFA.   Unlike other sports we are familiar with,  the game of soccer is governed at the highest levels by people who don’t really follow the game (ie.;  are not close to the game). VAR implementation is a perfect example.  Did they study and evaluate all the possible scenarios and outcomes?  Clearly no.  They think everything is black and white when the sport isn’t and never was.  Did they consider thinking like how much time can elapse before a call can be reversed?  Or what’s the best location or way that a ref can access the video screen?  Is it a good idea to waste valuable time on the clock going to the other end to review a play?   Should the ref even have to review it and should the review official have final say?  Etc et 

 

edit.:  I see that some of my questions have been answered above.

Edited by Free kick

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Janson has been training in TFC gear and posted a pic of himself in a Kawai jersey. 

I think he is the TAM player. Manning also said to expect to sign another player probably not tam level in the next window. 

I am a Janson fan and like how he could play either wing or striker. 

I want to see a lineup of

Westburg

Auro-Omar-Mavinga-Morrow

Pozuelo-Bradley-Osorio

Janson-Jozy-Shaffleburg

Give the Shaff a shot. 

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1 hour ago, Gian-Luca said:

From what I saw last year, Janson would not be a TAM- worthy signing.

Lol what? Tam players we currently have osorio, mavinga, omar. Janson is probably the best on that list. 

Dont forget vdw or ager. 

Janson scored a .5 goals per start in mls and argentina recently. There are dps worse than that in mls. 

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Janson missed too many golden-scoring chances last year for me to think that he's the best on that list or TAM worthy. Can't make a call on Gonzalez  either way until I actually see him play for TFC.

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On 6/26/2019 at 11:43 PM, Gian-Luca said:

Because the biggest problem with VAR use in MLS is that the paying customers have no idea what is going on, what play is being reviewed and don't get to see any replays on the screen.

That's a FIFA rule, and isn't specific to MLS. There are no replays for VAR actions in the Women's World Cup or Copa America, either.

The very least that can be done is an announcement of what the referee is talking to the VAR about.

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3 hours ago, Gian-Luca said:

Janson missed too many golden-scoring chances last year for me to think that he's the best on that list or TAM worthy. Can't make a call on Gonzalez  either way until I actually see him play for TFC.

He did miss a couple of goals but he still produced at a decent rate and is coming off being one of the better wingers in the primera league. For a tam player i would say hes got a good resume as 1.5 million MAX is nothing in the world of football. 

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There is something uninspiring about your long-anticipated tam signing being the guy who was already at the club on loan last season.

Part of me feels the club should have done better to keep him in the first place. It's more like getting your old toy back, which is a lot less exciting than getting a new toy.

Am I happy if Janson does return? Yes, of course. He did well last year, but let's not forget he played a lot of minutes with Giovinco. Big question mark for me is whether he replicates that form without him.

I like the starting line-up @Mikmacdoposted. It is probably the strongest we could put out. It somehow doesn't feel as good as the 2017 starting lineup, but it should be good enough for the team to claw back up the standings IF everyone is healthy and in form.

Bench options would be Delgado, Fraser, Chapman, Layera, Moor, Ciman, Bono

In theory those are very, very solid bench options.

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32 minutes ago, Obinna said:

There is something uninspiring about your long-anticipated tam signing being the guy who was already at the club on loan last season.

Part of me feels the club should have done better to keep him in the first place. It's more like getting your old toy back, which is a lot less exciting than getting a new toy.

Am I happy if Janson does return? Yes, of course. He did well last year, but let's not forget he played a lot of minutes with Giovinco. Big question mark for me is whether he replicates that form without him.

I like the starting line-up @Mikmacdoposted. It is probably the strongest we could put out. It somehow doesn't feel as good as the 2017 starting lineup, but it should be good enough for the team to claw back up the standings IF everyone is healthy and in form.

Bench options would be Delgado, Fraser, Chapman, Layera, Moor, Ciman, Bono

In theory those are very, very solid bench options.

I would think pozuelo would help out janson more than giovinco did?

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Posted (edited)
38 minutes ago, Mikmacdo said:

I would think pozuelo would help out janson more than giovinco did?

Hopefully. We won't know until they play together though.

I can see Pozuelo sending passes in behind for Janson, who would then put in crosses for Altidore, so it may result in Janson picking up more assists and less goals.

If Pozuelo partners Janson up front, then I can see Janson scoring a lot, but that's likely plan b. Plan a is going to be winger-jozy-janson.

Outside of his TFC spell, Janson hasn't been particularly prolific up front.

Edit: Transfermarkt says he has 5 goals in 10 games since leaving tfc. That is a vast improvement on scoring 10 in 82 previously. I wonder what has changed?

I get why Vanney wants to make Jozy the focal point, but it makes me nervous. The 2017 team could score in many different ways. Time will tell if the 2019 will prove the same.

Edited by Obinna

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Posted (edited)

Just noticed something interesting:

TFC are 3rd in MLS in goals for

 and ....get ready for it...............20th in goals against.

Edited by Obinna

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29 minutes ago, Obinna said:

Just noticed something interesting:

TFC are 3rd in MLS in goals for

 and ....get ready for it...............20th in goals against.

Yet outside of the last game they couldn’t score a goal to save their life. Teams kind of figured out how to play against TFC to slow them down. They def need some more firepower up front. If I see Boyd play another minute i might lose it haha. 

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26 minutes ago, Mikmacdo said:

Yet outside of the last game they couldn’t score a goal to save their life. Teams kind of figured out how to play against TFC to slow them down. They def need some more firepower up front. If I see Boyd play another minute i might lose it haha. 

You'd think a former international striker would have scored at least 1 goal by now...

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3 hours ago, Mikmacdo said:

Yet outside of the last game they couldn’t score a goal to save their life. Teams kind of figured out how to play against TFC to slow them down. They def need some more firepower up front. If I see Boyd play another minute i might lose it haha. 

So how do you explain 3rd in the league in scoring??  Some sort of cognitive separation going on here...stats say one thing, you think something else is true.  If there defense was even middle of the pack they would be several spots up in the standings and we all wouldnt be wringing our hands.  

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