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10 minutes ago, Kent said:

In Ansem’s defence, I present leg 1 of the 2019 Canadian Championship final, the year after TFC’s MLS season was a failure largely because of the priority they put on the CCL. It seemed clear to me at that point that TFC had determined they shouldn’t care about CCL anymore, and as a result, the Voyageurs Cup. Earlier in the year they lost in the first round of the CCL by a big margin to a Panamanian team, and I believe Vanney made “preseason game” type of comments before those games.

https://matchcenter.mlssoccer.com/matchcenter/2019-09-18-montreal-impact-vs-toronto-fc/boxscore

TFC started Gallardo and Mullins and had Pozuelo and Altidore on the bench at the start of the Voyageurs Cup final. Omar Gonzalez was also on the bench. Pozuelo, Altidore, and Gonzalez started the MLS games before and after that game.

https://matchcenter.mlssoccer.com/matchcenter/2019-09-15-toronto-fc-vs-colorado-rapids/lineup

https://matchcenter.mlssoccer.com/matchcenter/2019-09-21-los-angeles-football-club-vs-toronto-fc/lineup

Seems weird to present leg 1 without presenting leg 2, when TFC had its strongest possible lineup out there.

(You can quibble about Endoh being included, but he was the lone goal scorer in that game and he also started in the MLS Cup final later that year. Morgan's inclusion was due to the CanCon rule, and everyone else save Bono was a regular starter in 2019.) 

https://matchcenter.mlssoccer.com/matchcenter/2019-09-25-toronto-fc-vs-montreal-impact/lineup

I don't understand using a single game to try to disprove an overarching point while ignoring the context of what was going on at the time of that game. TFC was battling to get into the playoffs at that point, and was juggling lineups accordingly.

It's not a zero sum game — just because they didn't again sacrifice their MLS season doesn't mean they didn't want to win the Voyageurs Cup. If that were the case, then Altidore, Pozuelo, Gonzalez, Mavinga, etc. would have also sat during leg 2. It's clear Vanney was gambling that he could keep the score close in leg 1 (which they did) or nick a late away goal (Altidore or Pozuelo played the second 45 in Montreal) before going for it at home. The strategy didn't work, but that's the game.

As for the 2019 CCL debacle, it followed the sudden, unexpected departures of Giovinco and Vazquez. IIRC, Altidore (shockingly) and Moor were injured, Gonzalez was months away from being signed, and so on. It really was like a preseason series given the circumstances.

Overall, TFC and IMFC have shown they consistently value the CCL and the V Cup, one or two roster blips aside. The Whitecaps have desperately tried to win the V Cup most years, they've just been unsuccessful outside of 2015. Until things change (on a consistent basis), I remain unconvinced that Ansem's scenario will happen.

 

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Mostly agree, @RS, but I'd add something. An MLS team needs to win it for the rest to take it up a notch. And a Canadian team has to win it and go to the World Club Cup for the entire soccer nation to say "hey, that's pretty good". The win, and the winners' tournament that it gets you too. 

I agree clubs have tried, with properly presented line-ups, but I do think that this tournament does not have the aura or prestige of UEFA or Conmebol equivalents, logically. But you have to get a taste of it, I think, for them to really drive for it. As we stand, few MLS clubs, never mind the Canadian ones, have this Concacaf Champions high on their agenda at the start of the season.

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1 hour ago, RS said:

I don't understand using a single game to try to disprove an overarching point while ignoring the context of what was going on at the time of that game. TFC was battling to get into the playoffs at that point, and was juggling lineups accordingly.

That's mainly the point of my argument.

Of course squad management is required to maximize results on all fronts. I'm not saying they just would throw the V Cup final away because they don't care about it... but a team battling for a playoffs spots locking down the CCL berth by the semifinals definitely invites situations where clubs might opt to not use their strongest squad in the finals on a Wednesday if they have a league game 3 days later on Saturday.

The point is that it's a domestic cup and it should be 1 berth not 2.

 

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2 hours ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

Mostly agree, @RS, but I'd add something. An MLS team needs to win it for the rest to take it up a notch. And a Canadian team has to win it and go to the World Club Cup for the entire soccer nation to say "hey, that's pretty good". The win, and the winners' tournament that it gets you too. 

I agree clubs have tried, with properly presented line-ups, but I do think that this tournament does not have the aura or prestige of UEFA or Conmebol equivalents, logically. But you have to get a taste of it, I think, for them to really drive for it. As we stand, few MLS clubs, never mind the Canadian ones, have this Concacaf Champions high on their agenda at the start of the season.

I’d say the Canadian clubs have shown more of an overall interest in the CCL than their American counterparts, although that is changing. 

Even among the U.S. teams there is a split. The newer clubs tend to take it more seriously than the older ones, which falls in line with their overall ambitions (Atlanta, Seattle, LAFC, NYCFC are generally the more ambitious of the American clubs). 

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4 hours ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

Mostly agree, @RS, but I'd add something. An MLS team needs to win it for the rest to take it up a notch. And a Canadian team has to win it and go to the World Club Cup for the entire soccer nation to say "hey, that's pretty good". The win, and the winners' tournament that it gets you too. 

I agree clubs have tried, with properly presented line-ups, but I do think that this tournament does not have the aura or prestige of UEFA or Conmebol equivalents, logically. But you have to get a taste of it, I think, for them to really drive for it. As we stand, few MLS clubs, never mind the Canadian ones, have this Concacaf Champions high on their agenda at the start of the season.

I think what the tournament needs is a non-Liga MX team to win it. That's most likely to be an MLS team, though I'd love for someone like Saprissa to step up and do it.

I think the MLS teams are now taking it more seriously in most markets. I think it's viewed as another marketing tool for their global branding, and the ambitious teams all want to be the first to add it to their trophy case. Plus, I think that MLS knows it's close to winning it, where as before the gap between Liga MX and MLS was big enough that a manager could write off the CCL as "a waste of time" and no one would blame them. Now, it's not that MLS teams are expected to win it but I think if they don't put in the effort to win it there's a more negative view of them.

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10 hours ago, RS said:

Seems weird to present leg 1 without presenting leg 2, when TFC had its strongest possible lineup out there.

I was responding to this quote from Watchmen.

But a final?  Yes, 100% they field their best teams.  If you don't think that's the case, please find me a past Voyagers Cup final starting line up where you don't think a team did.“

The first leg of the final is still part of the final. They prioritized a regular season game against Colorado over that first leg. I think I fulfilled Watchmen’s request/requirement.

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2 hours ago, Kent said:

I was responding to this quote from Watchmen.

But a final?  Yes, 100% they field their best teams.  If you don't think that's the case, please find me a past Voyagers Cup final starting line up where you don't think a team did.“

The first leg of the final is still part of the final. They prioritized a regular season game against Colorado over that first leg. I think I fulfilled Watchmen’s request/requirement.

Fair, though I'd still say they fielded more of a 1A team rather than the "B or C" teams that Ansem was going on about. And if it was a 1 legged affair (or it's the home team) it's still a full strength squad.

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25 minutes ago, Watchmen said:

Fair, though I'd still say they fielded more of a 1A team rather than the "B or C" teams that Ansem was going on about. And if it was a 1 legged affair (or it's the home team) it's still a full strength squad.

Wait...what?

All I said is that you RISK seeing that if a team secures a CCL berth by the semi-finals when they have league games to worry about, especially when they are fighting to make the playoffs.

It's a domestic cup, keep it at one berth

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On 12/27/2020 at 7:46 PM, Ansem said:

You'd be asking for MLS B or even C squads to have at it. Makes no sense

 

4 minutes ago, Ansem said:

Wait...what?

All I said is that you RISK seeing that if a team secures a CCL berth by the semi-finals when they have league games to worry about, especially when they are fighting to make the playoffs.

It's a domestic cup, keep it at one berth

With league games on the line, the most anyone could find was a team fielding a 1A team in the  first and away leg of a two legged final and that still brought on the DPs in the second half.  There's no reason to think that the goal of these team is only a CCL berth.  For some reason, you continue to think that the CCL berth is the only goal and not the Cup itself. 

You're welcome to think that the domestic cup should stay at one, but the paranoia of "B or C" teams being fielded in the final is ridiculous.

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23 minutes ago, Watchmen said:

 

With league games on the line, the most anyone could find was a team fielding a 1A team in the  first and away leg of a two legged final and that still brought on the DPs in the second half.  There's no reason to think that the goal of these team is only a CCL berth.  For some reason, you continue to think that the CCL berth is the only goal and not the Cup itself. 

You're welcome to think that the domestic cup should stay at one, but the paranoia of "B or C" teams being fielded in the final is ridiculous.

There's never been 2 berths so I never said that they used B or C teams thus far.

A reminder

That's mainly why I disagree with 2 berths on the cup. If the CSA already thinks like that, how sure are you that at some point you wouldn't have a manager thinking the same way.

The CSA having this line of thinking absolutely invites others to think like that and that's dangerous.

That's why I'm against 2 berth with clubs securing CCL by the semi-finals.

Last time I checked, Euro domestic Cups have Europa berths attach to it, of course the berth attached to it is important, let's not kid ourselves here.

 

Edited by Ansem
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1 hour ago, Ansem said:

There's never been 2 berths so I never said that they used B or C teams thus far.

A reminder

That's mainly why I disagree with 2 berths on the cup. If the CSA already thinks like that, how sure are you that at some point you wouldn't have a manager thinking the same way.

That's all I was saying and where my thinking came from. I love the V Cup, keep it 1 berth 

That's all 

 

I think the CSA thought this because we're in the middle of a pandemic and scheduling a one-off game was going to prove problematic given shifting quarantine procedures, league schedules, etc.  Which is exactly what's happened.  I am 100% sure that no manager would dress a B or C team with other options available and risk losing the Voyagers Cup.  I don't know why you're so convinced that they are. 

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7 hours ago, Watchmen said:

I think the CSA thought this because we're in the middle of a pandemic and scheduling a one-off game was going to prove problematic given shifting quarantine procedures, league schedules, etc.  Which is exactly what's happened.  I am 100% sure that no manager would dress a B or C team with other options available and risk losing the Voyagers Cup.  I don't know why you're so convinced that they are. 

You think this is because of the pandemic... That's not what the tweet said - It would have been so much easier just to say that instead of this

  • The reason is that both teams would be guaranteed spots in the 2021 CCL, thus making the game meaningless from a strictly competitive standpoint. The symbolic value of winning the Voyageurs Cup would remain, of course.

You're making assumptions, I'm going with what was said/reporting.

If that's the line of thinking from the CSA of seeing the final as pointless except for the symbolic value of winning the cup if both finalists already have their CCL berths - how sure are you that a manager (especially foreign) at some point won't agree with that opinion?

I mean, just like in relationships, if you don't value yourself - don't expect others to value you

I'm advocating to keep the V Cup at 1 berth so the cup final doesn't become meaningless from a competitive standpoint (Using the CSA own words)

Edited by Ansem
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