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1 hour ago, deschamp86 said:

Isn't it up to the CSA to decide who their spots go to? If Forge were to win the Canadian Championship, it seems like it would make the most sense to give the spot to HFX

That would be the case if CCL & CL ran at the same time like in Europe. HFX would go to CL while Forge competes in CCL,

CONCACAF needs to adopt the Europe method in my opinion...

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They have the most intimidating logo I've ever seen.    

I would agree with with Bison. This is a tiny team from Central America. According to Vocal Minority podcast about 40 people have agreed to the group purchase. I have  a much bigger problem with

I don't see anything wrong with it. Some people are kit collectors, and with those jagged stripes and badge like that what's not to like?

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32 minutes ago, Ansem said:

That would be the case if CCL & CL ran at the same time like in Europe. HFX would go to CL while Forge competes in CCL,

CONCACAF needs to adopt the Europe method in my opinion...

I am not super familiar with how it works for UEFA, but it probably isn't ideal since CL is used to qualify for CCL, whereas in Europe the shittier CL teams move to the other tournament, unless I am mistaken

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6 minutes ago, deschamp86 said:

I am not super familiar with how it works for UEFA, but it probably isn't ideal since CL is used to qualify for CCL, whereas in Europe the shittier CL teams move to the other tournament, unless I am mistaken

Actually, it's a clever way to strengthen the level of play across the region which has worked in UEFA and is working in CONMEBOL.

Exposing more weaker teams to stronger foes allow them to improve overtime, something we can't seem to grasp in CONCACAF - until Nation League at least.

See my idea below - like they do in South America, allow more clubs from the stronger leagues to access both competition. This keeps your Tier 1 tournament quality high while adding quality to the 2nd tier and expose weaker teams to that level of play

 

Champions League

  • Mexico (4)
  • USA (4)
  • Canada (2) (Canadian Championship + CPL Champion)
  • Top 2 clubs from each Central American league - Panama, Costa Rica, El Salvador, Guatemala, Honduras, Nicaragua (12)
  • Caribbean Club Championship winner (1)
  • Previous year CONCACAF League winner (1)
  • Previous year Champions League winner (1)
  • Champions League playoffs Qualifiers winners (7)

Group stage 8 groups of 4 team, top 2 advance to knockout like UEFA

  • Winner qualifies for FIFA Club World Cup & next year Champions League
  • Group Stage should be in the fall and knockout in the Spring

 

Champions League playoffs

  1. 14 clubs
  2. Draw to set up the home and away series
  3. 2 games in August

Berths

  • Best 3rd overall club from each Central American league (6)
  • Caribbean Club Championship runner ups (3)
  • Canada (1) (CPL finalist)
  • USA (2) (5th-6th best)
  • Mexico (2) (5th-6th best)

-7 winners advance to Champions League group stage 

-7 losers advance to CONCACAF League Group Stage (Europa Model) or Round of 16 knockout bracket (Sudamericana model)

 

CONCACAF League

- Using the Europa formula with group stage or Sudamericana massive knockout tournament

Europa League format 

  • Losers Champions League playoffs (7) 
  • Central America (4th-5th best) (12)
  • Caribbean Club Shield finalists (2)
  • Canada (2) (CPL 3rd and 4th overall)
  • Mexico (4) (7th-10th best) or (7th to 9th + Domestic cup)
  • USA (4) (7th-10th best) or (7th to 9th + US Open)
  • Belize (1)

Group stage 8 groups of 4 team, top 2 advance to knockout like UEFA

  • Winner qualifies for FIFA next year Champions League
  • Group Stage should be in the fall and knockout in the Spring

 

Sudamericana Format

-1st Round of home & away matches involving 36 clubs

-2nd Round involves the 18 clubs who won their playoffs

-(9) remaining clubs will be seeded with the 7 clubs who lost their Champions League playoffs (7) who were seeded to Round of 16 knockout stage

-Winner qualifies for next year Champions League

  • 2nd round in the fall, Round of 16 Knockout stage in the spring
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Canadian ChampionshipNovember 25, 2020
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CANADIAN CHAMPIONSHIP FINAL: FORGE FC TO FACE TORONTO FC IN NEW YEAR

 

2020 Canadian Championship Final to be played in 2021

 

Canada Soccer has confirmed that the 2020 Canadian Championship Final between Forge FC Hamilton and Toronto FC will be played in the first quarter of 2021. The Canadian Championship Final has been moved until early 2021 due to current pandemic restrictions, with a date and location to be determined in consideration of club and league schedules.

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2 hours ago, fil said:
 
Canadian ChampionshipNovember 25, 2020
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CANADIAN CHAMPIONSHIP FINAL: FORGE FC TO FACE TORONTO FC IN NEW YEAR

 

2020 Canadian Championship Final to be played in 2021

 

Canada Soccer has confirmed that the 2020 Canadian Championship Final between Forge FC Hamilton and Toronto FC will be played in the first quarter of 2021. The Canadian Championship Final has been moved until early 2021 due to current pandemic restrictions, with a date and location to be determined in consideration of club and league schedules.

Perfect.  Just what everyone wanted.

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19 hours ago, Ansem said:

Actually, it's a clever way to strengthen the level of play across the region which has worked in UEFA and is working in CONMEBOL.

Exposing more weaker teams to stronger foes allow them to improve overtime, something we can't seem to grasp in CONCACAF - until Nation League at least.

See my idea below - like they do in South America, allow more clubs from the stronger leagues to access both competition. This keeps your Tier 1 tournament quality high while adding quality to the 2nd tier and expose weaker teams to that level of play

 

Champions League

  • Mexico (4)
  • USA (4)
  • Canada (2) (Canadian Championship + CPL Champion)
  • Top 2 clubs from each Central American league - Panama, Costa Rica, El Salvador, Guatemala, Honduras, Nicaragua (12)
  • Caribbean Club Championship winner (1)
  • Previous year CONCACAF League winner (1)
  • Previous year Champions League winner (1)
  • Champions League playoffs Qualifiers winners (7)

Group stage 8 groups of 4 team, top 2 advance to knockout like UEFA

  • Winner qualifies for FIFA Club World Cup & next year Champions League
  • Group Stage should be in the fall and knockout in the Spring

 

Champions League playoffs

  1. 14 clubs
  2. Draw to set up the home and away series
  3. 2 games in August

Berths

  • Best 3rd overall club from each Central American league (6)
  • Caribbean Club Championship runner ups (3)
  • Canada (1) (CPL finalist)
  • USA (2) (5th-6th best)
  • Mexico (2) (5th-6th best)

-7 winners advance to Champions League group stage 

-7 losers advance to CONCACAF League Group Stage (Europa Model) or Round of 16 knockout bracket (Sudamericana model)

 

CONCACAF League

- Using the Europa formula with group stage or Sudamericana massive knockout tournament

Europa League format 

  • Losers Champions League playoffs (7) 
  • Central America (4th-5th best) (12)
  • Caribbean Club Shield finalists (2)
  • Canada (2) (CPL 3rd and 4th overall)
  • Mexico (4) (7th-10th best) or (7th to 9th + Domestic cup)
  • USA (4) (7th-10th best) or (7th to 9th + US Open)
  • Belize (1)

Group stage 8 groups of 4 team, top 2 advance to knockout like UEFA

  • Winner qualifies for FIFA next year Champions League
  • Group Stage should be in the fall and knockout in the Spring

 

Sudamericana Format

-1st Round of home & away matches involving 36 clubs

-2nd Round involves the 18 clubs who won their playoffs

-(9) remaining clubs will be seeded with the 7 clubs who lost their Champions League playoffs (7) who were seeded to Round of 16 knockout stage

-Winner qualifies for next year Champions League

  • 2nd round in the fall, Round of 16 Knockout stage in the spring

Doesn’t this have the same problem still, except now with more teams having the opportunity to be in Forge/Canada’s situation. You have the CONCACAF League winner going to Champions League, and that team could also qualify via their league. If their league spot is higher seeded, then what happens? The team will want the highest seed they qualified for, so they would take their countries spot, then CONCACAF needs a different representative for the CONCACAF League winners spot.

I suppose switching to the European system of each club having their own coefficient rather than CAN1, CAN2, etc would alleviate the confusion. That way the team could go as CONCACAF League champs and not take a hit on seeding, and the next team in line from that country could take their other spot.

The problem with that system is it hurts leagues that have more parity.

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1 hour ago, Kent said:

Doesn’t this have the same problem still, except now with more teams having the opportunity to be in Forge/Canada’s situation. You have the CONCACAF League winner going to Champions League, and that team could also qualify via their league. If their league spot is higher seeded, then what happens? The team will want the highest seed they qualified for, so they would take their countries spot, then CONCACAF needs a different representative for the CONCACAF League winners spot.

Usually in Europe, when a team wins Europa qualifying them to Champions League and also qualify to Champions League via the league, the league's champions League berth is given to the next best team in the league

Ex: Sevilla wins Europe and finish top 4 in La Liga, the 5th team in La Liga goes to Champions League since Sevilla won Europa and qualified.

1 hour ago, Kent said:

I suppose switching to the European system of each club having their own coefficient rather than CAN1, CAN2, etc would alleviate the confusion. That way the team could go as CONCACAF League champs and not take a hit on seeding, and the next team in line from that country could take their other spot.

The problem with that system is it hurts leagues that have more parity.

The biggest issue here is USSF/MLS unwillingness to give access to CCL via the league - which would absolutely be the right thing to do. Had they done so, CAN1 could have went to CPL and CAN2 to the Voyageurs Cup with a CONCACAF League qualification.

Both CPL and MLS clubs would get a chance to qualify to both competition.

For me, the issue is there. We're in MLS without the full benefits nor reciprocity.

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2 hours ago, Ansem said:

The biggest issue here is USSF/MLS unwillingness to give access to CCL via the league - which would absolutely be the right thing to do. Had they done so, CAN1 could have went to CPL and CAN2 to the Voyageurs Cup with a CONCACAF League qualification.

Both CPL and MLS clubs would get a chance to qualify to both competition.

For me, the issue is there. We're in MLS without the full benefits nor reciprocity.

That doesn’t solve the problem though. I think what you are implying is what I had mentioned a while back, where the teams that qualify for CAN1 and CAN2 in 2020 would then go to CL in 2021 and CCL in 2022 (rather than CCL 2021 as it is now). Otherwise, if you keep the same timing we currently have you could get Forge winning Voyageurs Cup in, say 2021, which would qualify them for CL 2022 (it usually overlaps with V Cup, so they can’t qualify for 2021), then in 2022, while they are competing in CL, they could win the CPL to qualify for the 2023 CCL, which they would already be in qualifying for via CL. A 12+ month wait after qualifying for CCL can fix the problem.

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  • 1 month later...

Sports Illustrated has reported the format that the next version of the CCL could look like and Canada could see a huge increase in berths!

I speculate that if the "North America" region gets 16 teams in a group stage, Mexico and USA getting 6 each could lead to Canada getting 4 berths to the group stage.

I hope (& think) that the Canadian Championship winner will still get 1 berth but the other 3 will go to the CPL.

This could be HUGE for CPL

-Coverage by major sports network across North America

-Finally some CPL highlights from CCL on Canadian networks (This is fo F'N petty)

-More meaningful games leading to increases in local and regional fanbase for clubs

-Due to exposure, more sponsorship and corporate deals

-Increase to league spending on talents to be "competitive"*

*Not implying that salaries be in the millions to have deep runs in CCL. I'm implying to raise it to raise the level making us competitive like an Olimpia, Saprissa or Tauro

Shorth term goal should be "Competitiveness" (not getting destroyed and embarrassed)

Medium term goal is aiming to get out of the group.

Long term goal deep run

 

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7 hours ago, Ansem said:

Sports Illustrated has reported the format that the next version of the CCL could look like and Canada could see a huge increase in berths!

I speculate that if the "North America" region gets 16 teams in a group stage, Mexico and USA getting 6 each could lead to Canada getting 4 berths to the group stage.

I hope (& think) that the Canadian Championship winner will still get 1 berth but the other 3 will go to the CPL.

This could be HUGE for CPL

-Coverage by major sports network across North America

-Finally some CPL highlights from CCL on Canadian networks (This is fo F'N petty)

-More meaningful games leading to increases in local and regional fanbase for clubs

-Due to exposure, more sponsorship and corporate deals

-Increase to league spending on talents to be "competitive"*

*Not implying that salaries be in the millions to have deep runs in CCL. I'm implying to raise it to raise the level making us competitive like an Olimpia, Saprissa or Tauro

Shorth term goal should be "Competitiveness" (not getting destroyed and embarrassed)

Medium term goal is aiming to get out of the group.

Long term goal deep run

 

I would speculate that if it's 16 teams and not 12 (which SI mentions is also a possibility), that both Mexico and the US would be unhappy with only getting 2 or 3 more berths than a fledgling Canadian league (depending on the Voyagers Cup outcome) and would be lobbying for a 7-7-2 distribution.  I can see either a 7 (Liga MX), 6 (US), 3 (Canada) distribution, since one of Canada's team is likely (though by no means a certainty) to be an MLS team.  If it does goes 6-6-4, I could also see it being a behind-the-scenes deal with the CSA that 2 spots will go to the Voyagers Cup (winner and loser), again on the basis that this would almost certainly guarantee 1, possibly 2 MLS teams.

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34 minutes ago, Watchmen said:

If it does goes 6-6-4, I could also see it being a behind-the-scenes deal with the CSA that 2 spots will go to the Voyagers Cup (winner and loser), again on the basis that this would almost certainly guarantee 1, possibly 2 MLS teams.

That would make the final kind of pointless and it's weird to be giving that many berth to a domestic cup.

You'd be asking for MLS Bor even C squads to have at it. Makes no sense

 

 

Edited by Ansem
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14 minutes ago, Ansem said:

That would make the final kind of pointless and it's weird to be giving that many berth to a domestic cup.

You'd be asking for MLS Bor even C squads to have at it. Makes no sense

 

 

It's a Cup final.  You seem very obsessed with the idea that MLS teams don't want to win a trophy.  You've suggested that TFC will field a weak squad against Forge for no reason, and now you're suggesting that two teams with a Cup on the line will deliberately win field their B or C team.  I have no idea why you think this.  That makese no sense to me.  But beyond that, I would assume that the Champions League will have seeding, and that the winner would get a higher seed than the loser.

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8 minutes ago, Watchmen said:

It's a Cup final.  You seem very obsessed with the idea that MLS teams don't want to win a trophy.  You've suggested that TFC will field a weak squad against Forge for no reason, and now you're suggesting that two teams with a Cup on the line will deliberately win field their B or C team.  I have no idea why you think this.  That makese no sense to me.  But beyond that, I would assume that the Champions League will have seeding, and that the winner would get a higher seed than the loser.

They've always prioritized their league campaign over pretty much everything else. MLS are known for that which even Montagliani pointed out invoking "culture"

They win their semi finals and qualify for CCL with an important game on the weekend, you sure they play their best squad for the final?

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4 minutes ago, Ansem said:

They've always prioritized their league campaign over pretty much everything else. MLS are known for that which even Montagliani pointed out invoking "culture"

They win their semi finals and qualify for CCL with an important game on the weekend, you sure they play their best squad for the final?

You play to win trophies.  A semi final?  Sure, they might not field their best squad.  Definitely has been done in the past and  that's common around the world.  But a final?  Yes, 100% they field their best teams.  If you don't think that's the case, please find me a past Voyagers Cup final starting line up where you don't think a team did. 

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9 minutes ago, Watchmen said:

You play to win trophies.  A semi final?  Sure, they might not field their best squad.  Definitely has been done in the past and  that's common around the world.  But a final?  Yes, 100% they field their best teams.  If you don't think that's the case, please find me a past Voyagers Cup final starting line up where you don't think a team did. 

They will if 1 CCL berth is on the line. I'm skeptical that they will when they already won it from their semifinals and they are playing a crucial league game 3 days later.

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18 minutes ago, Watchmen said:

You're devaluing the Cup but constantly talking about how you think teams will field B and C teams in the final, despite providing zero evidence that this would happen and plenty of historical evidence that they have never done this in the past.

There's never been an instance where both finalists got the berth to CCL. Heck, there were rumors that the CSA would cancel the finals had Forge qualified and I'm not sure I've seen it elsewhere either.

Should be only 1 berth to that tournament, the rest should go to the league

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48 minutes ago, Ansem said:

There's never been an instance where both finalists got the berth to CCL. Heck, there were rumors that the CSA would cancel the finals had Forge qualified and I'm not sure I've seen it elsewhere either.

Should be only 1 berth to that tournament, the rest should go to the league

There's only 1 berth this year.  You still suggested that TFC would field a weaker team against Forge for no reason.  I do not know why you feel that MLS teams don't care about winning a trophy, but it's clear you do.

We'll have to see how many berths Canada gets, because ultimately I don't think it's 4 (which is the only scenario I speculated would put 2 berths to the Cup).

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7 hours ago, Watchmen said:

There's only 1 berth this year.  You still suggested that TFC would field a weaker team against Forge for no reason.  I do not know why you feel that MLS teams don't care about winning a trophy, but it's clear you do.

We'll have to see how many berths Canada gets, because ultimately I don't think it's 4 (which is the only scenario I speculated would put 2 berths to the Cup).

It's well known that they cared more about the league games than even CCL for years. Like Montagliani even said, it could be cultural.

Not sure why you're so outraged at my assumption that if they already secured the CCL berth by the semi-finals that they would manage their squad to be at full strength for the league game if there was schedule congestion. If TFC was fighting for a spot in the playoffs and had already secured CCL, it's NORMAL to prioritize MLS - that's just logical. Im not saying they wouldn’t try to win it but they would absolutely rotate.

I mean we even saw Liverpool putting most of their academy players in the FA Cup when they had league + Champions League games. Why? Alrhough winning the FA Cup is still important, they already had the Champions League berth locked down. They rotated to keep their squad fresh for Champions League games. The idea that MLS squads wouldn't prioritize the same way isn't realistic.

It's important that the Cup only has 1 berth regardless of how many berths Canada gets. It's the norm 

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1 hour ago, Ansem said:

It's well known that they cared more about the league games than even CCL for years. Like Montagliani even said, it could be cultural.

Not sure why you're so outraged at my assumption that if they already secured the CCL berth by the semi-finals that they would manage their squad to be at full strength for the league game if there was schedule congestion. If TFC was fighting for a spot in the playoffs and had already secured CCL, it's NORMAL to prioritize MLS - that's just logical. Im not saying they wouldn’t try to win it but they would absolutely rotate.

I mean we even saw Liverpool putting most of their academy players in the FA Cup when they had league + Champions League games. Why? Alrhough winning the FA Cup is still important, they already had the Champions League berth locked down. They rotated to keep their squad fresh for Champions League games. The idea that MLS squads wouldn't prioritize the same way isn't realistic.

You're continuing to use false examples. Liverpool played academy in the early stages of the FA Cup. Not the final. I don't know why you continue to insist that in a Cup final a club wouldn't send out their best players. You've still provided no examples of this.

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40 minutes ago, Watchmen said:

You're continuing to use false examples. Liverpool played academy in the early stages of the FA Cup. Not the final. I don't know why you continue to insist that in a Cup final a club wouldn't send out their best players. You've still provided no examples of this.

There's never been 2 berths attached to the domestic cup and it shouldn't happen. Thats all I'm saying.

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6 hours ago, Ansem said:

It's well known that they cared more about the league games than even CCL for years. Like Montagliani even said, it could be cultural.

You keep repeating this, but can you actually provide examples of this happening with the Canadian MLS teams?

TFC famously threw away their 2018 MLS season because they were trying to win the CCL that year. Montreal has consistently shown equal reverence for the CCL. 

The Whitecaps haven’t participated in the CCL enough to establish a pattern there, but the club has publicly stated it’s a priority so we can only take that at face value until shown otherwise.

 

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In Ansem’s defence, I present leg 1 of the 2019 Canadian Championship final, the year after TFC’s MLS season was a failure largely because of the priority they put on the CCL. It seemed clear to me at that point that TFC had determined they shouldn’t care about CCL anymore, and as a result, the Voyageurs Cup. Earlier in the year they lost in the first round of the CCL by a big margin to a Panamanian team, and I believe Vanney made “preseason game” type of comments before those games.

https://matchcenter.mlssoccer.com/matchcenter/2019-09-18-montreal-impact-vs-toronto-fc/boxscore

TFC started Gallardo and Mullins and had Pozuelo and Altidore on the bench at the start of the Voyageurs Cup final. Omar Gonzalez was also on the bench. Pozuelo, Altidore, and Gonzalez started the MLS games before and after that game.

https://matchcenter.mlssoccer.com/matchcenter/2019-09-15-toronto-fc-vs-colorado-rapids/lineup

https://matchcenter.mlssoccer.com/matchcenter/2019-09-21-los-angeles-football-club-vs-toronto-fc/lineup

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