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CDNFootballer

CPL's Independent Club League Model (Not Single Entity)

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3 hours ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

You're the expert I suppose. If you want to talk about it PM me, I have a fairly balanced, accurate perspective. I've also written about it in a few articles.

Cool, but no I’m not an expert, just a guy with a connection to the place and an opinion. I don’t think it was on the cards for three reasons: 

1) many of the people who didn’t support separation refused to participate in what they viewed as an illegal refeeendum. They were also rightly concerned about their safety as they were about the illegality of the process. Therefore even if somehow the vote had been found to be legal by a Court if competent jurisdiction (the Spanish Supreme Court -never going to happen as the referendum violated the constitution) then its validity would still be dubious at best. 

2) The only other option to the referendum attempt (whether it was right/wrong or legal/illegal we’ll probably disagree, but objectively it failed) would be insurrection. That’s a terrible and even less workable idea. 

3) The population of Cataluña is increasingly less Catalán. As time passes, the influx of people from other parts of Spain is (has already) changing the demographics of the place, sooner than later, there won’t even be a widespread desire for separation.

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Just now, Ams1984 said:

Cool, but no I’m not an expert, just a guy with a connection to the place and an opinion. I don’t think it was on the cards for three reasons: 

1) many of the people who didn’t support separation refused to participate in what they viewed as an illegal refeeendum. They were also rightly concerned about their safety as they were about the illegality of the process. Therefore even if somehow the vote had been found to be legal by a Court if competent jurisdiction (the Spanish Supreme Court -never going to happen as the referendum violated the constitution) then its validity would still be dubious at best. 

2) The only other option to the referendum attempt (whether it was right/wrong or legal/illegal we’ll probably disagree, but objectively it failed) would be insurrection. That’s a terrible and even less workable idea. 

3) The population of Cataluña is increasingly less Catalán. As time passes, the influx of people from other parts of Spain is (has already) changing the demographics of the place, sooner than later, there won’t even be a widespread desire for separation.

Just saw the PM part of your message, sorry. I have no idea how to do that.

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9 hours ago, Watchmen said:

It doesn't, but his quote was "Tom Fath does not own any portion of Cavalry FC", which while true is not true of the league.  Bob Young has financially invested in Halifax and apparently has intentions for a team in the K/W area as well.  The league isn't single entity, but they're factually not completely separate entities either.  David Braley owned both the Lions and Argos for a number of years, and the media at least in Vancouver had an issue with him owning both teams, even if he was doing it with the best of intentions.  

Financing the team is different than owning a part of the team. Is there any indication that he took equity for this financial backing (maybe there is a quote somewhere?) or is it possible he is simply financing the initiative with a plan to have his money returned with interest in the years to come? 

Or does he have an equity position now, with a buy-out option as the team becomes profitable? 

I get it, he has his fingers in multiple clubs. That doesn't bother me a ton though, if the whole thing is essentially the richer owners supporting the former owners in order to get a quality product on the field sooner. 

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Ams1984 said:

Cool, but no I’m not an expert, just a guy with a connection to the place and an opinion. I don’t think it was on the cards for three reasons: 

1) many of the people who didn’t support separation refused to participate in what they viewed as an illegal refeeendum. They were also rightly concerned about their safety as they were about the illegality of the process. Therefore even if somehow the vote had been found to be legal by a Court if competent jurisdiction (the Spanish Supreme Court -never going to happen as the referendum violated the constitution) then its validity would still be dubious at best. 

2) The only other option to the referendum attempt (whether it was right/wrong or legal/illegal we’ll probably disagree, but objectively it failed) would be insurrection. That’s a terrible and even less workable idea. 

3) The population of Cataluña is increasingly less Catalán. As time passes, the influx of people from other parts of Spain is (has already) changing the demographics of the place, sooner than later, there won’t even be a widespread desire for separation.

It's not something I am going to chit-chat about on the V-board, sorry, especially with someone making such dumbass comments, I mean really: even if I were not in favour of independence, I'd change my mind after reading what you just posted. It'd be your fault and the rest of Spain would be really upset with you.

Just so the rest of Vs know, I speak and teach and publish in Catalan, and of course am highly sympathetic, but I can take it or leave it. I could probably take or leave Canadian national identity as well, if it were not for the fact that the identity that could possibly replace ours, sitting down south drooling over our water and uranium, is way worse.

 

Edited by Unnamed Trialist

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1 hour ago, Copes said:

Financing the team is different than owning a part of the team. Is there any indication that he took equity for this financial backing (maybe there is a quote somewhere?) or is it possible he is simply financing the initiative with a plan to have his money returned with interest in the years to come? 

Or does he have an equity position now, with a buy-out option as the team becomes profitable? 

I get it, he has his fingers in multiple clubs. That doesn't bother me a ton though, if the whole thing is essentially the richer owners supporting the former owners in order to get a quality product on the field sooner. 

To get thankfully back on track: of course, you do not have to be a majority owner even, or have controlling interest. I think we should be happy to see club owners bolstering the general endeavour by giving financial or other backing to the other clubs. 

And I disagree with owning more than one team outright, it makes real competition farcical. 

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1 hour ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

It's not something I am going to chit-chat about on the V-board, sorry, especially with someone making such dumbass comments, I mean really: even if I were not in favour of independence, I'd change my mind after reading what you just posted. It'd be your fault and the rest of Spain would be really upset with you.

Just so the rest of Vs know, I speak and teach and publish in Catalan, and of course am highly sympathetic, but I can take it or leave it. I could probably take or leave Canadian national identity as well, if it were not for the fact that the identity that could possibly replace ours, sitting down south drooling over our water and uranium, is way worse.

 

You don’t sound too ‘balanced and objective’ but anyways, back to soccer talk, less facebookish. 

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3 hours ago, Ams1984 said:

Just saw the PM part of your message, sorry. I have no idea how to do that.

Envelope icon in the top right. Click it, then click "Compose New".

image.png.e88676eb82a1cb3dbdf46781839d4004.png

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20 hours ago, Alex D said:

There is only one determiner to single entity. Does the league own the franchise and player contracts or do individual owners? That's it. All the other stuff has nothing to do with single entity. 

And it really is that simple. The owners own their own clubs. The league does not own them. 

Cripes I felt like I was taking crazy pills. 

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1 hour ago, Ams1984 said:

You don’t sound too ‘balanced and objective’ but anyways, back to soccer talk, less facebookish. 

You haven't read my articles though. Judging my or anyone's opinion without reading or knowing it is puerile. 

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21 hours ago, Alex D said:

There is only one determiner to single entity. Does the league own the franchise and player contracts or do individual owners? That's it. All the other stuff has nothing to do with single entity. 

Yes I understand that, but when people are saying they don't want single entity, I feel like what they are really saying is that they don't want a salary cap (possibly), they want pro/rel (likely) and they don't want convoluted roster rules (definitely). Theoretically you could have a single entity league that has pro/rel, simple roster rules, and no salary cap (or at least have it based off of revenue per team, rather than one set cap for everyone). If that happened I don't think anybody would actually care that it's single entity. People commonly use it as a term basically to say they want the league more like the big leagues in Europe rather than MLS.

Which is why I agreed that people are getting wound up about semantics, and that the real issues that people are advocating for typically are the ones I've outlined.

But maybe my perception is out of whack and people really do just care about whether teams and player contracts are centrally owned, regardless of how the league operates.

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45 minutes ago, Kent said:

Yes I understand that, but when people are saying they don't want single entity, I feel like what they are really saying is that they don't want a salary cap (possibly), they want pro/rel (likely) and they don't want convoluted roster rules (definitely). Theoretically you could have a single entity league that has pro/rel, simple roster rules, and no salary cap (or at least have it based off of revenue per team, rather than one set cap for everyone). If that happened I don't think anybody would actually care that it's single entity. People commonly use it as a term basically to say they want the league more like the big leagues in Europe rather than MLS.

Which is why I agreed that people are getting wound up about semantics, and that the real issues that people are advocating for typically are the ones I've outlined.

But maybe my perception is out of whack and people really do just care about whether teams and player contracts are centrally owned, regardless of how the league operates.

The CPL is a typical North American style closed franchise league. I prefer a full open system but this is better than nothing, for now. But at least CPL clubs have the authority to try to be the best clubs they can be while working within an agreed upon framework. 

In MLS, because of single entity, the league can and does interfere with player signings. They've cherry picked cities for star players to go to, they stop teams from giving players raises and there is no such thing as free agenceny. This really degrades the competion when you realize that the two squads you are watching are actually on the same team. 

MLS is a soccer themed entertainment business modeled after the WWE. And if you think im exaggerating, here is an article where they actually brag about that fact. 

https://www.si.com/longform/2015/mls/index.html

Basically, although closed franchise leagues also suck, we need to stop using single entity as a short hand for anything that doesn't look like Europe. 

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2 hours ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

You haven't read my articles though. Judging my or anyone's opinion without reading or knowing it is puerile. 

Listen, I’m not the one who starting hurling insults, and that’s puerile if you ask me. Anyways, we disagree, who cares. Reasonable people can do that, have a good one. 

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3 minutes ago, Alex D said:

The CPL is a typical North American style closed franchise league. I prefer a full open system but this is better than nothing, for now. But at least CPL clubs have the authority to try to be the best clubs they can be while working within an agreed upon framework. 

In MLS, because of single entity, the league can and does interfere with player signings. They've cherry picked cities for star players to go to, they stop teams from giving players raises and there is no such thing as free agenceny. This really degrades the competion when you realize that the two squads you are watching are actually on the same team. 

MLS is a soccer themed entertainment business modeled after the WWE. And if you think im exaggerating, here is an article where they actually brag about that fact. 

https://www.si.com/longform/2015/mls/index.html

Basically, although closed franchise leagues also suck, we need to stop using single entity as a short hand for anything that doesn't look like Europe. 

This post outlines what I take to be the crux of the single-entity-vs-not issue.  That is why, despite the presence of a salary cap, the lack of pro-rel, and any quirky mechanics that the league may be implement in the short term to ensure a successful start, the issue of single entity is still one which is important in its own right, and which is a sign of CPL's wisdom (in avoiding it).   MLS's command and control model for player movement etc is not something I want to see duplicated here and why this isn't just about semantic clarification. 

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Posted (edited)
On 1/3/2019 at 9:45 AM, Ruffian said:

Everybody seems to think there are only two possible league models.

In addition to the Independent Club model many leagues follow and MLS's rare Single Entity model there is also the privately owned model (USL).

Edited by CDNFootballer

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11 hours ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

It's not something I am going to chit-chat about on the V-board, sorry, especially with someone making such dumbass comments, I mean really: even if I were not in favour of independence, I'd change my mind after reading what you just posted. It'd be your fault and the rest of Spain would be really upset with you.

Just so the rest of Vs know, I speak and teach and publish in Catalan, and of course am highly sympathetic, but I can take it or leave it. I could probably take or leave Canadian national identity as well, if it were not for the fact that the identity that could possibly replace ours, sitting down south drooling over our water and uranium, is way worse.

 

I know very little about this situation...and you may even be right on all accounts...but I find you increasingly full of yourself so I'd be a lot less likely to believe anything you wrote...whether in Catalan, English or Swahili. Congratulations on making the dumbass list along with BBTB and Robert. 

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8 hours ago, dyslexic nam said:

This post outlines what I take to be the crux of the single-entity-vs-not issue.  That is why, despite the presence of a salary cap, the lack of pro-rel, and any quirky mechanics that the league may be implement in the short term to ensure a successful start, the issue of single entity is still one which is important in its own right, and which is a sign of CPL's wisdom (in avoiding it).   MLS's command and control model for player movement etc is not something I want to see duplicated here and why this isn't just about semantic clarification. 

And to me his post sounds like he is arguing for the third issue I outlined, which I hypothesized is the most common gripe that gets lumped in with single entity. Player movement/allocation. Just because MLS decides to be a bit tyrannical with their single entity system doesn’t mean it has to be that way with a single entity system. It’s still just semantics and the real gripe is with the roster/player acquisition rules, etc.

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28 minutes ago, Kent said:

And to me his post sounds like he is arguing for the third issue I outlined, which I hypothesized is the most common gripe that gets lumped in with single entity. Player movement/allocation. Just because MLS decides to be a bit tyrannical with their single entity system doesn’t mean it has to be that way with a single entity system. It’s still just semantics and the real gripe is with the roster/player acquisition rules, etc.

The entire point of single entity is so they can be tyrannical. If you don't want to behave in that manner then you have no need for single entity. 

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11 hours ago, Alex D said:

The entire point of single entity is so they can be tyrannical. If you don't want to behave in that manner then you have no need for single entity. 

That’s a fair point. Where a single entity league wants to direct their tyranny may not be a constant, but it is probably a safe assumption that they do want to be tyrannical in some ways.

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1 hour ago, Kent said:

That’s a fair point. Where a single entity league wants to direct their tyranny may not be a constant, but it is probably a safe assumption that they do want to be tyrannical in some ways.

Precisely. Have a read of the article i linked a few posts up. Some of the stuff the MLS suits talk about is straight messed up and they laugh about it. 

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Posted (edited)
On 1/4/2019 at 8:48 PM, Ams1984 said:

Listen, I’m not the one who starting hurling insults, and that’s puerile if you ask me. Anyways, we disagree, who cares. Reasonable people can do that, have a good one. 

All I commented was a relevant question to our debates about leagues, how some speculate on where a team might play if a border were to change. And you came up with this deluded, big-headed comment trying to solve the Catalan question sitting on your butt in Toronto, with absolutely no basis to comment, and what's more, really saying some pretty baseless things.

You have a thread about Ottawa CPL that is like 82 pages long, and some ******* thinks he can solve a thousand year old question involving millions of people in three paragraphs. 

Edited by Unnamed Trialist

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14 minutes ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

All I commented was a relevant question to our debates about leagues, how some speculate on where a team might play if a border were to change. And you came up with this deluded, big-headed comment trying to solve the Catalan question sitting on your butt in Toronto, with absolutely no basis to comment, and what's more, really saying some pretty baseless things.

You have a thread about Ottawa CPL that is like 82 pages long, and some ******* thinks he can solve a thousand year old question involving millions of people in three paragraphs. 

At no point was he trying to solve the problem...*******.

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