2019 Voyageurs Cup

[deschamp86]

9 minutes ago, BuzzAndSting said:

I didn't realize the ratio of games would be so close. That definitely makes it doable.

The only argument being that compared to other MLS teams, their ratio would be much higher. However, squad rotation (which will also mean some younger Canadians will be getting more opportunities and possibly putting themselves on show for loan opportunities to CPL)

[to70]

On 5/23/2019 at 1:55 PM, narduch said:

I agree TFC should start at the same time as the other 2 MLS clubs.

I'm just trying to rationalize it as if I was in the CSA.

For instance what happens if a CPL club actually qualifies for the main Champions League, would they be granted the same courtesy?

I wonder if TFC got the bye due to the fact that they had to win The Voyageurs twice to get 1 slot in the CCL when CONCACAF changed the format. That to me would be the only reason for them get this advantage.

[narduch]

31 minutes ago, to70 said:

I wonder if TFC got the bye due to the fact that they had to win The Voyageurs twice to get 1 slot in the CCL when CONCACAF changed the format. That to me would be the only reason for them get this advantage.

That's a good point. 

We will have to wait to see what they do next year. 

If the rumors of the 2 new Quebec teams in CPL turn to fruition we will probably get a revised format anyway

Edited May 24, 2019 by narduch

[Watchmen]

You could go the other way though.  Keep the 3 MLS teams starting in the quarterfinals and add more teams to the previous rounds from League 1/PLSQ/amateur sides.

[narduch]

Current bracket after the 1st round:

[dyslexic nam]

The matches I am most looking forward to in this whole tournament:

• The winner of HFX/Valour vs Fury; and
• The winner of Forge/Cavalry vs VWC.

For better or worse, both of these games will say something about the quality of CPL.  I hope our league shows well

 

 

[deschamp86]

2 hours ago, dyslexic nam said:

The matches I am most looking forward to in this whole tournament:

• The winner of HFX/Valour vs Fury; and
• The winner of Forge/Cavalry vs VWC.

For better or worse, both of these games will say something about the quality of CPL.  I hope our league shows well

 

 

I would have liked to see Forge or Cavalry against Fury

[dyslexic nam]

1 hour ago, deschamp86 said:

I would have liked to see Forge or Cavalry against Fury

Me too.  I think it would have given the best chance of CPL showing the soccer world that Fury's rationale for preferring the USL was nothing more than convenient fluff.  

I am just saying that given the way the table is actually structured, these are the two (actual) pairings I am most looking forward tow.  

PS: Go Raps.  What a game!

[narduch]

Impact and Whitecaps are both having decent seasons. 

TFC seem to be the MLS club that is ripe for the picking. But they may improve at the next transfer window

[Terry_Canuck]

Well we are definitely underdogs in the next round plus by the time the home leg occurs that will be three games in seven days.  With that said though, I am optimistic of the next two league games versus York and Pacific.

I sense Valour is due a 3 or 4 goal game as there is a lot of talent there...hopefully not against us.

 

[ted]

On 5/24/2019 at 7:27 AM, RS said:

My point wasn't the odd number, it was the size of the first round. Eventually it gets too big if you have all the teams enter at the same time.

So what?!? It matters not how many teams are in the first round and we could double the size of the league and it would make no difference.

Why do you think the number of teams in the first round matters? It's not like they are all going to play in the same stadium on the same day.

The first round of last years FA cup was 80 teams FFS.

[RS]

9 hours ago, ted said:

The first round of last years FA cup was 80 teams FFS.

And like the FA Cup, the V's Cup has teams seeded into later rounds.

[ted]

2 hours ago, RS said:

And like the FA Cup, the V's Cup has teams seeded into later rounds.

Hey, RS, you cannot change the argument. You said, "it gets too big if you have all the teams enter at the same time."

We are speaking about 13 teams in this year's competition and from 14 - 16 teams next year. Even if we add in ALL the Div 3 teams (as I think we should) that number is still nowhere close to the numbers in the qualifying and subsequent rounds of the FA Cup.

There were 736 clubs in the FA cup last year. It started with a  qualifying round for "non-league" teams, then the four professional divisions were brought in which resulted in 32 teams making the "first round" along with the 48 teams from League One and Two. That is a total of 80 teams.

So, to suggest that we cannot simply have every Canadian team start at the beginning because that would be too many is simply absurd. You have provided no facts, nor even opinion of any kind to support your contention that 13 teams is too many teams to enter in the competition at the same time.
 

Edited May 27, 2019 by ted

[RS]

6 hours ago, ted said:

Hey, RS, you cannot change the argument. You said, "it gets too big if you have all the teams enter at the same time."

But I also said in the very first post you responded to: "Seeding teams into the later rounds is fine, and setting that precedent now is a good idea, but I agree that no team should be given a bye into the semis. Even the quarters is a bit much, but I don't mind it so much this year."

You decided to cut that part out of your original response to me, but it was there and thus I'm not changing the argument. Both points support each other, although I do admit that it is my personal opinion that it could be unwieldy to have all teams start in round 1 (based on logisitics of travel this country, which the FA Cup doesn't have to deal with, and the fixture congestion already experienced by the CPL teams), especially in future years as the number of teams grows (which I also wrote in that first post).

Either way, it's quite silly to imply that my opinion is dumb while also explicitly saying I provided no "opinion of any kind" on the matter.

[ted]

19 hours ago, RS said:

Either way, it's quite silly to imply that my opinion is dumb while also explicitly saying I provided no "opinion of any kind" on the matter.

What is silly is you pretending that you have answered the question: why can't all teams enter at once? 

What logistical difficulties prevent 6 games being played across the country on the same weekend? 

Heck, let's triple that number and ask, what makes you believe that playing 18 games in the same weekend is not possible?

[Kent]

Seeding things the way they have doesn't do anything to help the CPL's fixture congestion problem. The maximum number of games in the current system is the same as the maximum number of games in a straight up, round of 16 tournament. I think the CSA's concern isn't fixture congestion, it's fixture congestion for MLS teams.

TFC: Hi CSA. We want to win your tournament but we don't really want to play the games. Is that cool with you?
CSA: Sure, that should be fine.
TFC: And is it still cool if we send a weakened team to the CCL (like 2019 TFC, obviously not 2018 TFC).
CSA: Of course that's fine. That doesn't affect our decision to stack the deck in your favour.

If we are really worried about fixture congestion, the easy answer is to make the tournament a single knockout tournament rather than a 2-legged affair.

[Kent]

On 5/23/2019 at 11:35 PM, narduch said:

The wiki page helps visualize it better.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2019_CONCACAF_League

Can anyone make sense of why Santa Tecla (SLV2) is in Pot 1 instead of Pot 3? Is the rule for Pot 3 to have the first slot for each Central American nation not named Belize plus the top Caribbean slot (excluding the one that gets put in the Champions League) and the 3 next best slots? I guess I probably just figured it out, but it would make more sense to me to drop NCA1 down to Pot 1 and slide SLV2 into Pot 3 (moving I guess GUA1 down to Pot 4).

Interesting thing about this is that SLV2 has a better CONCACAF Index than SLV1, but is put in a worse pot. I feel like there needs to be a solution to this kind of problem, but I don't know what that solution would look like.

[Blackdude]

7 minutes ago, Kent said:

Can anyone make sense of why Santa Tecla (SLV2) is in Pot 1 instead of Pot 3? Is the rule for Pot 3 to have the first slot for each Central American nation not named Belize plus the top Caribbean slot (excluding the one that gets put in the Champions League) and the 3 next best slots? I guess I probably just figured it out, but it would make more sense to me to drop NCA1 down to Pot 1 and slide SLV2 into Pot 3 (moving I guess GUA1 down to Pot 4).

Interesting thing about this is that SLV2 has a better CONCACAF Index than SLV1, but is put in a worse pot. I feel like there needs to be a solution to this kind of problem, but I don't know what that solution would look like.

Pot 1 and 2 play the preliminary round. Pots 3 and 4 start in the Round of 16.

EDIT: I would assume it's becaue Guatmealan teams couldn't participate in one CCL round. 

Edited May 28, 2019 by Blackdude

[RS]

1 hour ago, ted said:

What is silly is you pretending that you have answered the question: why can't all teams enter at once? 

What logistical difficulties prevent 6 games being played across the country on the same weekend? 

Heck, let's triple that number and ask, what makes you believe that playing 18 games in the same weekend is not possible?

You seem really determined to drag this argument on for days, so I guess I'll respond again.

I never said they "can't" do anything, nor did I claim that it isn't possible. I said having all teams enter in the first round could eventually become unwieldy due to the logistics of this nation, especially for a blind draw format that many (myself included) would like to see. I'm not sure why I'd need to explain this to someone living on a coast, but travel can and does place a huge burden on teams.

What I don't understand is why this riles you up so much. It's simply my opinion, based on having observed the game in this country for years, which you've already told me is not relevant to the discussion.

 

[RS]

51 minutes ago, Kent said:

Seeding things the way they have doesn't do anything to help the CPL's fixture congestion problem. The maximum number of games in the current system is the same as the maximum number of games in a straight up, round of 16 tournament. I think the CSA's concern isn't fixture congestion, it's fixture congestion for MLS teams.

TFC: Hi CSA. We want to win your tournament but we don't really want to play the games. Is that cool with you?
CSA: Sure, that should be fine.
TFC: And is it still cool if we send a weakened team to the CCL (like 2019 TFC, obviously not 2018 TFC).
CSA: Of course that's fine. That doesn't affect our decision to stack the deck in your favour.

If we are really worried about fixture congestion, the easy answer is to make the tournament a single knockout tournament rather than a 2-legged affair.

I agree that seeding the current champions in the semis is absolutely ridiculous, but there's no actual evidence to support the insinuation that the CSA is stacking the deck for TFC. This is the same TFC that last year couldn't get Ayo Akinola to qualify as a Canadian in this competition, yet they were able to have the entire tournament altered for their needs? Seems unlikely.

Fixture congestion for all the teams needs to be the concern here. The CPL did itself no favours by implementing this overloaded spring season, but I realize that there are factors at play that (at least partially) forced the league's hand. 

As for a single knockout tournament, I have a hunch that the CSA wants all teams to host at least one home game, and will continue to do so until it becomes absolutely impossible to.

[maccaliam]

I would like to see it go to single elimination with the lower seed (if from a different league) always gets to play at home. I am sure it would never happen, but I like this idea. IIRC le coupe de France is run this way

[Kent]

23 hours ago, Blackdude said:

Pot 1 and 2 play the preliminary round. Pots 3 and 4 start in the Round of 16.

EDIT: I would assume it's becaue Guatmealan teams couldn't participate in one CCL round. 

My point (which I probably didn't make clear) is that all of the teams/slots are ordered by CONCACAF Index. Pot 3 has the top teams, followed by Pot 4 (as you say, they both start in the round of 16, so they are the highest seeds), followed by Pot 1 and then Pot 2. Every team/slot is ordered by CONCACAF Index in that order of pots, with the exception of SLV2 which is put in Pot 1 (effectively seeding them 1tth) even though their CONCACAF Index would have them in 7th place (in Pot 3).

As I talked it out in the post where I asked the question, I assume it's because Panama, Honduras, Costa Rica, El Salvador, Guatemala, Nicaragua, and the Caribbean are guaranteed to have their first slot in the round of 16, and then they take the top 3 wildcards to join them (CRC2, PAN2, and HON2). That leaves SLV2 in the preliminary round, even though by results they deserve better.

[ted]

23 hours ago, RS said:

You seem really determined to drag this argument on for days, so I guess I'll respond again.

I never said they "can't" do anything, nor did I claim that it isn't possible. I said having all teams enter in the first round could eventually become unwieldy due to the logistics of this nation, especially for a blind draw format that many (myself included) would like to see. I'm not sure why I'd need to explain this to someone living on a coast, but travel can and does place a huge burden on teams.

I am determined to get an answer to a simple question which you seem determined to evade for days.

What exactly do you mean when you say, "having all teams enter in the first round could eventually become unwieldy due to the logistics of this nation"? 

Are you making some sort of argument about travel costs and amateur teams paying to fly cross country to play? That is not an argument for absolute numbers of teams, that is an argument about participation below a certain level. And easily solved BTW with regional "pots" and/or finding a way to subsidize the travel for less-wealthy teams. 
 

[narduch]

The first leg matches of the 2nd Round were all interesting.

The return legs are all meaningful, even if Edmonton has the most work cut out for them. They showed they can score though.

Can't wait for next week. Loving the passion the teams are showing.

[dyslexic nam]

I am curious how they will structure it next year.  The games have been great, but it is the inter-league stuff I most look forward to - whether CPL against the lower leagues or the coming games against MLS sides.  It will be interesting to see if CSA makes it a truly open format where all teams enter at the same point, or if they continue to strongly tier it the way they did this year.  I favour the open format, but we will see.