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21 minutes ago, red card said:

While I won't say Canada has caught up till we prove it on the pitch, there seems to some people on this forum who haven't been paying attention to the decline in the USMNT. 

100% agree. Most are still thinking of last Gold Cup USMNT which even at that point wasn't as good as Brazil 2014 where in my opinion, that was their peak.

More analysis (Says a lot when Bradley and Altidore are "saviours"). C team "T&T" demonstrated at large what happens when you neutralize Pulisic in the last WCQ. As the video says below, even with them in the line up, they won't be exponentially better either.

If our guys play to the full extend of their talents, we are no worse than the USMNT when comparing rosters.

For me, Canada must reach the semi-finals at the very least

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Their failure to qualify for WC 2018 was sort of like our 8-1, which says something.  They want to ditch players - just as we did, but ultimately we couldn't.  Guys who started that game included: Hutchinson, De Guzman, Edgar, Johnson.. we had to keep them on, we had no one else at that level.  Even Brazil after their 7-1 loss had to keep many players on.. it's just reality and it's reasonable to not overreact after one or two bad results.  That shouldn't and doesn't define a player.  Jozy and Bradley are US legends, period.

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4 hours ago, Ansem said:

Gosh... some people are talking like they are I invincible. If you reread my message "caught up" doesn't mean surpassed as a whole.

It's my opinion that our best XI is better than theirs except defense with the players they called up.

But to say that we haven't caught up is not factual. We can compete and we'd give them problems

We can't even state we've caught up to Costa Rica, making such statements without literally any proof just makes us look dumb. Let the boys speak for themselves in pitch first before we start talking crap about other teams.

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7 minutes ago, LeoH037 said:

We can't even state we've caught up to Costa Rica, making such statements without literally any proof just makes us look dumb. Let the boys speak for themselves in pitch first before we start talking crap about other teams.

What was the result last time we played Costa Rica?

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1 minute ago, Ansem said:

What was the result last time we played Costa Rica?

One result doesnt form a trend. They consistently qualify for the world cup. We dont. Until we match their level on a consistent basis we havent surpassed them. 

You dont surpass other programs based on paper results and one off games. It takes a stretch of consistent results over a number of years to surpass another team. 

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6 months ago if you told me Canada with John Herdman at the helm would be coming into Gold Cup with better momentum than the USA, I would have accused you of being drunk. That is exactly what we are seeing here. Even if we don't play T&T tomorrow we'll be heading into the GC in better shape than the Americans.

It's shambolic south of the boarder right now. Give me Herdman instilling a culture any day of the week over GB struggling to get across his complex tactics in the international game. I much prefer our approach of developing belief over developing intricate movements that worked at the club level.

This isn't the Columbus Crew, this is the international game, where you don't have time to work out the tactical kinks. Maybe it will all click with time, but do you know what else comes with time? Pressure. The USSF may be patient with GB, for now, but the fans certainly won't be. They're already crying that things have gone from bad to worse and we haven't even kicked a ball yet in the Gold Cup.

This strategy is perhaps all wrong for the Americans. If you are new to the international game, perhaps the best strategy is setting up the team to be solid, instead of starting your "process" expecting the fans and players to be patient. 

I had my doubts about Herdman because he never coached in the men's game, but so far my fears have been completely unfounded. Watching the USA now, you'd be hard pressed to convince me GB was a better hire than Herdman, who clearly knows the international game. 

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I am getting whiplash from these ESPN/USMNT boosters.  The U-20 beat France..things are getting better, woo hooo.  Lose to Ven...Boo hooo its the worst thing since the spanish inquisition.  

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1 hour ago, Obinna said:

I had my doubts about Herdman because he never coached in the men's game, but so far my fears have been completely unfounded. Watching the USA now, you'd be hard pressed to convince me GB was a better hire than Herdman, who clearly knows the international game. 

Agree, for all the criticism Herdman has gotten since taking over the CANMNT program, no one can deny the fact that he is filled with valuable international experience, and knows how to approach the challenges that come with international soccer. I do believe GB is a good coach, but he is proving too slow to adapt. its not the same working with a team over the course of a season, as opposed to a limited number of international camps months apart.

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2 hours ago, king1010 said:

One result doesnt form a trend. 

We haven't lost to them since 2007...same team that obliterated the USMNT during the WCQ at home. 

Screenshot_20190610-010700_Chrome.jpg

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Posted (edited)
7 hours ago, king1010 said:

They consistently qualify for the world cup. We dont. Until we match their level on a consistent basis we havent surpassed them. 

Context matter. We were in the group of death with Mexico, Honduras and El Salvador. We had no Davies, David, Larin was our main striker and we somehow managed to start Arfield on the bench in some of those games...let's not forget that Osorio was in the dog house.

Costa Rica was with Haiti, Jamaica and Panama 

The US were in the easiest group with St.Vincent, Trinidad and Guatemala, to whom they lost 2-0

Want to talk trend? The US had massive problems winning on the road in the 4th and 5th round except St.Vincent. They either tied or lost in Central America (including T&T "C team"). They picked up a "Central America" complex. Canada historically had the same problem while in the 4 round, like the US, we won or tied at home except against Mexico.

The CNL qualifiers wasn't just about beating up small teams, but bonding, chemistry, instauring a winning culture, develop mental toughness & self belief (sorely lacking before) but most importantly, learn to perform and win in very hostile environment while shedding that losing attitude and Central America complex.

We have to acknowledge that as well.

I'm loving the "thinking out of the box" by Herdman. Who can forget when he asked that the CanMNT trained on a worse field than the official pitch so our guys would be better prepared? Also that he zeroed in the psychological part and changed the culture which is massively underrated as reason for our team underperforming. 

He went young at the right time and we stuck with it which gave them the time to get used to the senior level and bring a new attitude to the team. They came in without past traumas and both hopeful & optimistic.

The US took the youth switch WAY too late and are still stubbornly holding on to their legends while seeing Pulisic as their saviour. Trinidad removed him from the equation and the USMNT were neutralized, be assure the rest of CONCACAF has caught on to that in the last WCQ. So now they are slowly trying to get a youth movement going but expecting them to perform like the "Golden Generation" with a complex system, less depth within such a short period of time is really unfair to them...

It's a mess down there and their fans would be the 1st to tell you that. Anyways, we just have to execute to the fullest of our abilities and we'll be a force to reckon with.

7 hours ago, king1010 said:

You dont surpass other programs based on paper results and one off games. It takes a stretch of consistent results over a number of years to surpass another team. 

How many bad results will it take for you to acknowledge that the US have declined? Works both ways. 

Edited by Ansem

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It is like there are two different arguments going on and people are pretending they are debating the same thing.

 

Claim 1:  Our starting 11 is on par with the US starting 11 at this point.

Claim 2:  The Canadian program is not at the same stage as the US program.

 

In my opinion, both claims are true.  They are not mutually exclusive. 

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How about this program gets good results in this up and coming Gold Cup and does well in the next World Cup qualifying by at least getting very close to qualifying for the World Cup,  or even better actually making the World Cup,  before we start heaping praises on a coach and team who apart from the Costa Rica game has played countries that a good League 1 Ontario team could most likely beat.  Yes this team has some great young talent and great potential but really has done nothing yet .

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Canada results 2019:

Canada 4 French Guiana 1

 

USMNT results 2019:

All Friendlies with experimental lineups:

US 3 Panama 0

US 2 Costa Rica 0

US 1 Ecuador 0

US 1 Chile 1

US 0 Jamaica 1

US 0 Venezuela 3

Notice a slight difference in matches played and level of competition?

Couple of poor recent results but all in all not such a terrible beginning to 2019 for US.  Outplayed in both those results vs Chile and Ecuador though.  One of the reasons their fans are in meltdown mode is they hold their team to a much higher standard than we do ours (and rightly so from a historical standpoint).  Not making a World Cup is unacceptable.  Not making a Gold Cup final is unacceptable.

I'm not sure if US has declined so much as they haven't made the leap they expected to.  They've stagnated a little and we've made up some ground with our young stars.  On the other hand we don't play enough games, our backline is iffy, and we'd be overjoyed to make it to the semis.

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Posted (edited)
46 minutes ago, Shortdutchcanuck said:

Canada results 2019:

Canada 4 French Guiana 1

 

USMNT results 2019:

All Friendlies with experimental lineups:

US 3 Panama 0

US 2 Costa Rica 0

US 1 Ecuador 0

US 1 Chile 1

US 0 Jamaica 1

US 0 Venezuela 3

Notice a slight difference in matches played and level of competition?

Couple of poor recent results but all in all not such a terrible beginning to 2019 for US.  Outplayed in both those results vs Chile and Ecuador though.  One of the reasons their fans are in meltdown mode is they hold their team to a much higher standard than we do ours (and rightly so from a historical standpoint).  Not making a World Cup is unacceptable.  Not making a Gold Cup final is unacceptable.

I'm not sure if US has declined so much as they haven't made the leap they expected to.  They've stagnated a little and we've made up some ground with our young stars.  On the other hand we don't play enough games, our backline is iffy, and we'd be overjoyed to make it to the semis.

Cant pick and choose either. 

So the US held their own with "experimental lineups" against tougher competition yet we aren't willing to recognize that their opponents might have been experimenting too in games that don't really matter...

The Gold Cup will be the true test for them and I maintain that out starting XI is no worse than theirs.

Edited by Ansem

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8 hours ago, Ansem said:

We haven't lost to them since 2007...same team that obliterated the USMNT during the WCQ at home. 

Screenshot_20190610-010700_Chrome.jpg

You are reading that wrong. They beat us in 2013 in a pre-Gold Cup Friendly. It's us who haven't beaten Costa Rica since 2007 which we did at the Gold Cup that year. That's the same Gold Cup where we last won a knock-out do-or-die game (3-0 over the Guats in the Q-F). We also failed to beat Costa Rica at home under Floroball when we absolutely had to win (in 2015).

I sincerely hope we buck the trend and start winning some big games when everything is on the line. I do think we have the talent to do that, hopefully we now have the "brotherhood" mentality that's going to go along with the superior talent we now have in comparison to what we used to have but until we actually do it for real on the pitch there is no point in talking smugly about how we've caught up to any of the teams in the region that have been better than us results-wise over the past decade - which at least six teams in my estimation.

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2 hours ago, Gian-Luca said:

You are reading that wrong. They beat us in 2013 in a pre-Gold Cup Friendly. It's us who haven't beaten Costa Rica since 2007 which we did at the Gold Cup that year. That's the same Gold Cup where we last won a knock-out do-or-die game (3-0 over the Guats in the Q-F). We also failed to beat Costa Rica at home under Floroball when we absolutely had to win (in 2015).

I sincerely hope we buck the trend and start winning some big games when everything is on the line. I do think we have the talent to do that, hopefully we now have the "brotherhood" mentality that's going to go along with the superior talent we now have in comparison to what we used to have but until we actually do it for real on the pitch there is no point in talking smugly about how we've caught up to any of the teams in the region that have been better than us results-wise over the past decade - which at least six teams in my estimation.

Lol! I did read it in reverse. However since 2007 (not that I meant to do that far back) still 1 win, 1 loss, 4 draws. Not trying to make a case that we have surpass them, no we have not... they are clearly #2 in CONCACAF.

Best #3 to 6 is up for grab in my opinion this year with the Gold Cup and Nations League.

Without saying we're "a super power" and the USA "sucks", we have "clearly improved" while the US has "clearly declined". Dont know why other posters goes to such extremes, the last sentence doesn't mean the US aren't a good team nonetheless, but I'm putting it out there that their starting XI isn't league above ours. We can compete.

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56 minutes ago, Ansem said:

 

Without saying we're "a super power" and the USA "sucks", we have "clearly improved" while the US has "clearly declined". Dont know why other posters goes to such extremes, the last sentence doesn't mean the US aren't a good team nonetheless, but I'm putting it out there that their starting XI isn't league above ours. We can compete.

This all seems reasonable, if this is what you meant all along apologies for overreacting..  You are such an enthusiastic poster, sometimes maybe it is easy to read more into your posts than you intend.  Also we all had our fill of incessant US criticism when @PhillyJawn-guy  was still posting here.

I've always been in the Kawhi Leonard camp of being quietly confident and focused but basically saying look there's nothing to talk about we haven't won anything yet.

Looking forward to some real tests both in the Gold Cup and Nation's League A though, it is exciting to think about the potential this team has if it all comes together.

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1 hour ago, Shortdutchcanuck said:

This all seems reasonable, if this is what you meant all along apologies for overreacting..  You are such an enthusiastic poster, sometimes maybe it is easy to read more into your posts than you intend.  Also we all had our fill of incessant US criticism when @PhillyJawn-guy  was still posting here.

I've always been in the Kawhi Leonard camp of being quietly confident and focused but basically saying look there's nothing to talk about we haven't won anything yet.

Looking forward to some real tests both in the Gold Cup and Nation's League A though, it is exciting to think about the potential this team has if it all comes together.

Wow...didn't know I was looking like that troll.

Guys, dont faint. We can be competitive and opponents goes through cycles too.

Nothing controversial about that 

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27 minutes ago, Ansem said:

Wow...didn't know I was looking like that troll.

Guys, dont faint. We can be competitive and opponents goes through cycles too.

Nothing controversial about that 

 You'd only have to amp up your US bashing about a thousand times.

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1 minute ago, Shortdutchcanuck said:

 You'd only have to amp up your US bashing about a thousand times.

I don't bash them. I see them for what they are. A good CONCACAF team no more, no less.

But I don't buy into the mystic of the past golden age of US soccer. It's a valid opinion as even their analysts agrees with that statement

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1 minute ago, Ansem said:

I don't bash them. I see them for what they are. A good CONCACAF team no more, no less.

But I don't buy into the mystic of the past golden age of US soccer. It's a valid opinion as even their analysts agrees with that statement

By past Golden Age do you mean like them winning the gold cup 2 years ago? 

Its not reality - we have no clue how they are going to play this tournament but in past ones they’ve always been a top team and certainly better than us.

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