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Kent

Full CONCACAF Club Index

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Realistically yes it will probably take several years, and of course perhaps next year we get unlucky with a draw and end up getting Saprissa or something in the first round and go home without any points for the year. But 1 or 2 years of outstanding results (like winning the whole thing kind of outstanding) would shoot us up the ranking quite quickly I think.

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First of all thanks for this great work. Maybe the reason there was no discussion as you mentionned 2-21-2019 was that before Forge played, it was not evident  how important the index was for determing fixture in the future.

As Rintaran mentionned, i doubt Concacaf will use the same point system for the preliminary round. As we can see Saprissa will have already 8,5 points for the preliminary round. If they draw the 2 games in the round of 16 but lose on away goals they will have 10,5 points and Agila only 4.5 if we use this points system. So by creating the  preliminary round in Concacaf league, Concacaf basically created a third level of competition. But the prelimanary participants cannot get 0 point in that round because  there must be a way to go from pot 2 team to pot 1 team and getting the advantage of being the receiver of the second leg in the future years of the tournement. I don't have a clue about how they will adress this problem...

 

 

 

 

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Posted (edited)

I don't see a problem with awarding full points for the preliminary round. These are the lower seeds and are expected to lose in the next round anyway. And their preliminary round win might boost them ahead of teams who lose their first tie in the following round, perhaps resulting in a seeding reversal so that different teams have to play in the preliminary round next time, which seems fair.

In the unlikely event that a preliminary round team wins the whole thing they do have the potential for more total points than teams that did not play in the preliminary round. But when you couple the low probability with the fact that they would only get that small advantage once (because all those points would get them a higher seeding next time) I think it would work fine.

I quite like the system actually. I have a few quibbles but the idea of 3 pts for a win and 1 for a draw is very appealing in its simplicity. 

Edited by Lofty

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4 minutes ago, Lofty said:

I don't see a problem with awarding full points for the preliminary round. These are the lower seeds and are expected to lose in the next round anyway. And their preliminary round win might boost them ahead of teams who lose their first tie in the following round, perhaps resulting in a seeding reversal so that different teams have to play in the preliminary round next time, which seems fair.

In the unlikely event that a preliminary round team wins the whole thing they do have the potential for more total points than teams that did not play in the preliminary round. But when you couple the low probability with the fact that they would only get that small advantage once (because all those points would get them a higher seeding next time) I think it would work fine.

I quite like the system actually. I have a few quibbles but the idea of 3 pts for a win and 1 for a draw is very appealing in its simplicity. 

Good points. I hadn't thought of it that way.

We'll have to see what happens. Unfortunately we probably won't have answers to our questions until next summer when they show the scores/pots for the 2020 CONCACAF League draw.

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12 hours ago, Kent said:

Good points. I hadn't thought of it that way.

We'll have to see what happens. Unfortunately we probably won't have answers to our questions until next summer when they show the scores/pots for the 2020 CONCACAF League draw.

This is true, we'll have to wait for verification.

You use a proper spreadsheet with formulas & cell referencing for keeping track of all this right?

So it should be easy enough to change your weight chart reference and have the points update across the board?

If not, let me know. I can put one together in excel and send it over.

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, Rintaran said:

This is true, we'll have to wait for verification.

You use a proper spreadsheet with formulas & cell referencing for keeping track of all this right?

So it should be easy enough to change your weight chart reference and have the points update across the board?

If not, let me know. I can put one together in excel and send it over.

Yeah, I've got a pretty proper spreadsheet. It won't be hard to change if/when I find out the new system. Thanks for the offer though!

Edited by Kent

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Updated the OP with all of this week's results.

HON1 passes SLV2 and CRC2
CRC3 passes SLV1 into a tie with CRC1
SLV3 passes CCC3, PAN4, CCC1 and moves into a tie with HON3.
CAN2 and GUA3 still can't shake each other at the bottom, but continue to gain on the field.

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I was unplugged most of the week so just updating the numbers now.

SLV3 passed HON3
GUA1 passed CCC3
GUA3 separated themselves from CAN2

PAN2 (Independiente this time around) is only 4 points behind MEX4 for a spot that should earn them a spot in the Champions League (but we know that won't happen unfortunately). They could pass MEX4 in the next round if they do well enough against Saprissa. If these points were used for placement in CCL/CL that would put 2 Panamanian teams directly into the Champions League, along with one Canadian team, 4 American teams, and only 3 Mexican teams.

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Updated with this weeks results.

CRC3 passed CRC1, SLV2, and CRC2
HON2 passed SLV1, CRC1, SLV2, and CRC2
SLV3 passed CRC4 and PAN3 to move from CL Pot 1 up to CL Pot 4, pushing CRC down from CL Pot 4 to CL Pot 1.

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Updated with this weeks results.

CRC1 passed SLV2, CRC2 and HON2.
CCC2 passed NCA1, CCC3 and GUA1, moving into a tie with PAN4. They also went from CL Pot 2 up to CL Pot 1.

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@KentAm I right in looking at the first post and seeing 2014-15 results coming off at the start next season?

If that is the case it is interesting that a big 23 points come off from CAN1 and put them down to 56 points.  Brings them back to the pack with the other US and Panama.  A lot ridding on Montreal in the CCL next year.  

On the flip side it is encouraging for CAN2. 

  • CAN2 would jump GUA2
  • GUA1 is only 3.5 ahead of CAN2
  • CCC2 only 5 points ahead

Strong performances from Calvary/Forge and CAN2 can start working themselves up the pot ladder. 

 

EDIT: 

Also looking into the CL I found out there are at least 2 clubs named after Robin Hood in CONCACAF.  SV Robinhood (from Suriname) and Robin Hood FC (Bermuda).  I would love Y9 to run into both of these teams after they win the 2020 North Star Shield. 

Edited by Stouffvillain

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49 minutes ago, Stouffvillain said:

@KentAm I right in looking at the first post and seeing 2014-15 results coming off at the start next season?

If that is the case it is interesting that a big 23 points come off from CAN1 and put them down to 56 points.  Brings them back to the pack with the other US and Panama.  A lot ridding on Montreal in the CCL next year.  

On the flip side it is encouraging for CAN2. 

  • CAN2 would jump GUA2
  • GUA1 is only 3.5 ahead of CAN2
  • CCC2 only 5 points ahead

Strong performances from Calvary/Forge and CAN2 can start working themselves up the pot ladder. 

 

EDIT: 

Also looking into the CL I found out there are at least 2 clubs named after Robin Hood in CONCACAF.  SV Robinhood (from Suriname) and Robin Hood FC (Bermuda).  I would love Y9 to run into both of these teams after they win the 2020 North Star Shield. 

The 2014-15 results will be coming off of the CCL teams next season. So yes, Montreal has to try to match those 23 points for CAN1 to maintain it's point total. However, for the CL teams, the 2014-15 results are already not a factor (since they already began their 2019-2020 season).

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19 hours ago, Stouffvillain said:

@KentAm I right in looking at the first post and seeing 2014-15 results coming off at the start next season?

If that is the case it is interesting that a big 23 points come off from CAN1 and put them down to 56 points.  Brings them back to the pack with the other US and Panama.  A lot ridding on Montreal in the CCL next year.  

On the flip side it is encouraging for CAN2. 

  • CAN2 would jump GUA2
  • GUA1 is only 3.5 ahead of CAN2
  • CCC2 only 5 points ahead

Strong performances from Calvary/Forge and CAN2 can start working themselves up the pot ladder. 

 

EDIT: 

Also looking into the CL I found out there are at least 2 clubs named after Robin Hood in CONCACAF.  SV Robinhood (from Suriname) and Robin Hood FC (Bermuda).  I would love Y9 to run into both of these teams after they win the 2020 North Star Shield. 

Now that I have a couple more moments to look at your questions.

  • CAN2 would jump GUA2 - yes, by half a point
  • GUA1 is only 3.5 ahead of CAN2 - actually 8.5 ahead of CAN2. The column with 11 points is already not counted, next time around it's the column with 8 that will be dropped, bringing GUA1 down to 16 points (before the 2020 numbers are factored in)
  • CCC2 only 5 points ahead - 8 points ahead, for the same reason as I stated for GUA1 above.

It will be interesting to see where everyone is once all the slots have 5 years worth of results.

 

 

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Updated with last week's result from the first leg of the final. CRC3 passed HON1 and PAN2. If Saprissa can win again on November 26th, CRC3 will pass MEX4 and move into 10th spot, good enough for a (hypothetical) CCL spot in pot 2. This despite only having 3 years of results, when the last 5 years of results are counted for everyone ahead of them. If CRC3 got credit for their performances in the 2012-13 and 2013-14 Champions Leagues, it would actually be in the top pot of CCL with 77.5 points (not including any result from November 26th yet), ahead of all the American slots and 1 Mexican slot, and only slightly behind CAN1.

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Yesterday the club indexes being used for the 2020 Champions League draw were revealed, and with it some details that may make my table more obsolete than ever.

I thought the teams that qualified through CONCACAF League would be playing under SCL (CONCACAF League qualifier) slots, but it turns out they are actually using their nation's slots. It looks like the situation is like this...

Let's say, a team using the HON3 slot is in the 2019 CONCACAF League and does well enough to make it to the 2020 CONCACAF Champions League. It looks like the points they gained in the 2019 CONCACAF League disappear (or are maybe going to be used for a separate CONCACAF League index?) and the team will now represent HON1 in the Champions League. The document with details on the index seems to have changed the name of it from "CONCACAF Club Index" to "CONCACAF Champions League Club Ranking". https://res.cloudinary.com/concacaf-production/image/upload/v1573669178/championsleage-prod/assets/20_SCCL_Club_Ranking_ENG.pdf

There are still some unanswered questions but it looks to me like they are probably going to have separate rankings for CCL and CL. So I'm not sure if I'll keep up my single table idea. I'll at least finish up with the last result from the 2019 CONCACAF League, but then I'll have to see if I can make any sense of what to do going forward.

Edited by Kent

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Now for a mini rant, this new system sucks. The Mexican, American, one Caribbean, and one Canadian spots all get 4 points each year just for existing in the CCL. The Central American, other Caribbean, and other Canadian spots all have to fight their way through a qualifying tournament to get those same 4 points.

For example: Let's say one year USA1 loses both of it's first round games, it get's 4 points for that year just by participating in an event that they were granted a spot for no particular reason. Then let's say CAN2 wins both of it's preliminary round CONCACAF League games, moving on to the round of 16, then wins both of it's round of 16 games, moving on to the quarter finals, then loses the quarter finals and is 3rd best out of the quarter final losers. The CAN2 spot gets 0 points for that year (at least in terms of CCL ranking), so that if the following year they qualify for the CCL, their point total will be 0 for that year instead of 4 if they had been granted a CCL spot and lost both it's games, or instead of getting the 13 or 14 points they deserved based on their results in the CONCACAF League.

This makes things even more unfair for the Central American teams (and Canada 2 and Carribbean spots other than the top one) than it previously appeared. In my table, PAN1 at the moment is ranked 9th in the confederation, which should be good enough to get a CCL spot in my opinion. But the way things have worked out, they didn't qualify for the CCL this year, and are getting 0 points for the year instead of at a bare minimum the 4 points that they would have gotten if they were granted a direct CCL spot based on merit, instead of it being gifted to, say the Caribbean.

It's like there might have been one person at CONCACAF that had a vision for how to correct things, but the rest of CONCACAF didn't understand it and made it dumb, or just through pure corruption actively stopped it from happening. They had all the tools there, they are just ignoring them. It's so frustrating. And it's frustrating that I can easily believe them either being that incompetent or that corrupt.

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On 11/14/2019 at 11:49 AM, Kent said:

It's so frustrating. And it's frustrating that I can easily believe them either being that incompetent or that corrupt.

There's a third possibility which I choose to believe: they're both.

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Updated with this weeks CONCACAF League championship result. Saprissa and Motagua drew in the second leg, so Saprissa are the champs. The point that Motagua got took HON1 passed PAN2.

Like I alluded to earlier, I'm not sure if I'll update the table anymore. If people have ideas for something that would be useful with the new direction CONCACAF is taking the rankings, by all means make a suggestion. Otherwise I might just rethink it once the CCL starts up to see if I come up with anything that seems useful/fun/not too much of a pain in the neck.

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