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CONCACAF U-20 Championship (November 2018)


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1 hour ago, MtlMario said:

I don't want to seem like a know it all ( and I held back till now) but from the first game I thought to my self, this team is not going to the next round. Sorry ?.

As soon as people started floating the idea we wouldnt/shouldnt send Millar, Tabla, David, Davies I didnt think we would advance. Although that was more a general sense of dread (based on seemingly generations of Cdn teams shitting the bed in these situations and not any knowledge about caribean U-20 players).  Not being a know it all just a super pessimist in the order of BBTB.  I also cant have nice things and my glass is always half empty.  

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When I saw that none of those four players were going to be included I knew their chances of finishing first in their group and beating Panama was going to be tough. However, when I saw them play against Guadeloupe and how they struggled against Guadeloupe I knew that just beating Panama and finishing first in their group would take a miracle. Moreover, this was not so much the players not being good enough , and I’ll admit some of them with their performances made you wonder how they even made it to this team,  but I think a lot of it is on the coach , tactics and motivation seemed to be lacking , with a better coach I think this team could have won their group at least.

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I find it very hard to believe that all of our best youth players end up playing for MLS academies. There isnt1 hotshot young player in League1, PLSQ, FC Edmonton, Foothills, etc...? The teams we are playing in Nations League are calling up League 1 guys for their senior teams! Some people theorize that the reason not to call the big 4 is to give others exposure in these tournaments. Maybe the CSA needs to scout more than 3 places. There is people on this forum who could probably name a few individuals in the aforementioned league who deserve a call. Where do they think Larin came from? Is the CPL really going to make a difference? They hardly look at anyone else regardless.

Edited by Stryker911
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11 hours ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

The Herdman deal was in the works for months, it seems, while Octavio was in the post, Herdman even set it up himself, plotting--and I think this is fair--to make a move with the CSA, putting them in a bind with him leaving the women''s team, and then executing.  He knew exactly what he was doing, and who he was dealing with (a new CSA board with no loyalty to the previous decision for CMNT manager).

My point is, it was not one sided.  It seems harder tome to make Herdman out to be the bad guy when Zambrano was already on the chopping block for other reasons.  

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16 hours ago, Stryker911 said:

I still can't get over the St. Kitts loss, so I put it in perspective. According to Wikipedia from the years 99-01 there was 2505 births in St. Kitts and Nevis. Assuming half of them were girls that leaves 1253. They had 20 players on their roster. So 1 out of approximately every 62 people born those years was on this team. Mind-boggiling how we can lose. My high school was bigger than that.

It is amazing and embarrassing but St. Kitts for whatever reason has punched above their weight for a long time.  And population just isn't a good soccer performance indicator.

I'm guessing some of the fans of the quality sides who lost to Iceland in recent years went angrily off in search of similar statistics.  And on the other side of the coin China and India have had no soccer success!

One thing you can be sure of is that in St. Kitts the players are extremely familiar with each other and it is pretty simple to figure out who the best young players are.  Definitely countries like Panama and Costa Rica have a big player familiarity advantage over our young players.

I think the biggest thing we can take from this tournament is we can't just show up and qualify.  Players and coaches need more camps and friendlies both for evaluation and gelling as a team.  And as @SpecialK has mentioned this might also make it easier to hold on to or grab dual nationals.

 Probably the CSA either can't or won't do this, so we are essentially spinning our tires until we get either the resources or the will to compete logistically.  As it is games against Panama and Honduras will always be a coin toss.

I agree with @Ansem that CanPL should expand the player pool and make us less dependent on MLS academies.  I think those academies produce talent,  its just that they can only be counted on for a couple players each and not the majority of the roster.  And better scouting of players in European academies is a must going forward although that is no easy task.

I agree with most of the criticism of Oliveira and the CSA in this tournament.  I don't agree with discounting any of the players here going forward.  They all deserve criticism but they were not put in a position to succeed.  The cream of the crop will usually show some flashes: Baldisimo, Choiniere, Bair, Reid, Bayiha, Okello.  The other young guys still have a lot of developing to go and when not properly prepared and put in bad situations their deficiencies show.  Truly sad thing is this was a great player development opportunity and it was wasted.  Not because of the big 4 not being here, or even because of not qualifying, but because we did not place our young players in an adequately prepared or professional environment.

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It is all about the money.

CSA will not under pay themselves but will skimp on everything else.

Leaving the fabulous four at home guaranteed that this squad was not going anywhere sending the second stringers predicted a second place finish.

This has been the policy for the last 50 years and will continue for the next 50 get used to it.

Until the desire to move forward is developed do not expect CPL level players and coaches to make any kind of difference.

There is a lot of talent and skill out there but very little mental and physical toughness and desire to reach the highest levels.

In other words as a whole Canadian Soccer is soft and second rate as stated by our FIFA ranking.

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16 minutes ago, Lev Yashin said:

It is all about the money.

CSA will not under pay themselves but will skimp on everything else.

Leaving the fabulous four at home guaranteed that this squad was not going anywhere sending the second stringers predicted a second place finish.

This has been the policy for the last 50 years and will continue for the next 50 get used to it.

Until the desire to move forward is developed do not expect CPL level players and coaches to make any kind of difference.

There is a lot of talent and skill out there but very little mental and physical toughness and desire to reach the highest levels.

In other words as a whole Canadian Soccer is soft and second rate as stated by our FIFA ranking.

Ok, lay out the budget and how it could be different.  We all want top level U17 and U20 coaches, it pisses me off we don't have them, but tell me how we spend top $ on them.

If you think there is no politics invovled in calling players, especially ones just signed by their clubs then I don't know what to say.  They can't simply do whatever they want and think there are no consequences for the players now and in the future. 

These self engratiating rants are tiresome.  We have read them many times. 

My guess is almost all your answers include the word  "just" in every sentence.

Just hire better coaches

Just play Brazil in friendlies

Just .... just .... just ... just.

You don't need to come on here and make yourself sound great by telling us soccer here is second rate.  Guess what the sky is blue too.

 

 

 

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Honestly, I don't think the CSA consider the U-20s that important, so they should just farm it out to the winning team of a national competition. There are clubs out there with good players and good coaching and good chemistry that can probably beat these smaller national teams. 

Edited by Initial B
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1 hour ago, Stryker911 said:

I find it very hard to believe that all of our best youth players end up playing for MLS academies. There isnt1 hotshot young player in League1, PLSQ, FC Edmonton, Foothills, etc...? The teams we are playing in Nations League are calling up League 1 guys for their senior teams! Some people theorize that the reason not to call the big 4 is to give others exposure in these tournaments. Maybe the CSA needs to scout more than 3 places. There is people on this forum who could probably name a few individuals in the aforementioned league who deserve a call. Where do they think Larin came from? Is the CPL really going to make a difference? They hardly look at anyone else regardless.

But how would you evaluate them? Once players play professional you can measure them against serious opponents. I don't think it's realistic for the CSA to scout every city for the most talented / developed player in the local bar league.

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I agree with those who have expressed concerns about Olivieri. Although recognizing that we have scant evidence, a) blaming the schedule in his interview was not only ridiculous, it was not even a clever excuse as excuses go and b) listening to the Martinique game, he struck me as a junior house league coach with his non-stop shouting. I mean, it's understandable I suppose that this is a group that won't have played together and won't intuitively know the system he wants, but these are all guys playing in pro environments who should be able to recognize without being reminded when they have gone from five to three at the back. If they can't, that's a big problem.  As the coach you need to be able impart not only what you want tactically but that you expect players to show this awareness themselves on the pitch every minute of the 90. Apart from Baldissimo's master class in the first game, I didn't see the full-game maturity and awareness from this team, and I didn't see Olivieri acting as if he was expecting them to. 

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5 hours ago, Lev Yashin said:

It is all about the money.

CSA will not under pay themselves but will skimp on everything else.

Leaving the fabulous four at home guaranteed that this squad was not going anywhere sending the second stringers predicted a second place finish.

This has been the policy for the last 50 years and will continue for the next 50 get used to it.

Until the desire to move forward is developed do not expect CPL level players and coaches to make any kind of difference.

There is a lot of talent and skill out there but very little mental and physical toughness and desire to reach the highest levels.

In other words as a whole Canadian Soccer is soft and second rate as stated by our FIFA ranking.

I think this is extreme.  Yeah, we should not have lost to St Kitts but I’d rather see what these guys in the squad can prove by giving four guys playing time and experience.  Herdman alreadys somewhat knows what Millar, Davies, Tabla and David can do.  Personally, I’m glad they weren’t called!

I’d rather find out what some of the kids are made of in a U-20 tournament than finding out with the senior team.  It’s also a reason why I shake my head when Canada as a nation overreacts when it loses at the World Junior Hockey Championships.  Better to find out now than when it really counts. 

Edited by JamboAl
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6 hours ago, admin said:

My point is, it was not one sided.  It seems harder tome to make Herdman out to be the bad guy when Zambrano was already on the chopping block for other reasons.  

That is what we have been told. What were they? We don't know, only rumours, they let rumours run and left it at that. 

Then Octavio, for his part, said he would do a press conference, and did not. Perhaps he signed a severance asking him not to. I don't think he has gone back into coaching, which could be due to the severance, or to him not finding a new post. In any case, he also left a few questions wanting.

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11 hours ago, shorty said:

I agree with those who have expressed concerns about Olivieri.  b) listening to the Martinique game, he struck me as a junior house league coach with his non-stop shouting. I mean, it's understandable I suppose that this is a group that won't have played together and won't intuitively know the system he wants, but these are all guys playing in pro environments who should be able to recognize without being reminded when they have gone from five to three at the back. If they can't, that's a big problem. 

Hmm, I wonder who he might have learned not-stop shouting at his players from? 

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On 11/10/2018 at 4:26 PM, Stryker911 said:

I still can't get over the St. Kitts loss, so I put it in perspective. According to Wikipedia from the years 99-01 there was 2505 births in St. Kitts and Nevis. Assuming half of them were girls that leaves 1253. They had 20 players on their roster. So 1 out of approximately every 62 people born those years was on this team. Mind-boggiling how we can lose. My high school was bigger than that.

I have made this same argument in the past to make the case why some of these nations should not be sanctioned as national teams and be able to play internationally.  

If you take any population,

1) lets say roughly half are males.  

2) assuming no baby boom period (which is unlikely) remove anyone outside of the 18-35 aged males group.  For u20, remove those outside of 16-20 age group.

3) pair down further by able bodied group versus non able or disabled  body

4) fitness.  Take 18-35 aged able bodied males who are not obesse and can be active for 90 minutes. Do same for 16-20 ages for the u20 example.

5)  pair further down by individuals who are interested in soccer so as to exclude anyone who has others interests and pursuits in life.  

6) pair further down by soccer basic skills (ie you played the game for at least 2-3 years)

7) pair further down as to remove people who cant comit to the national team for travel and schedule due to economic or carreer reason.  People who have other full time jobs or school. Or people who cant commit fully to a training schedule. 

Now whats left if you are a tiny carribean island country?  That 62 number might be down to 3-4. We havent even talked about talent and thats because after the criteria above are applied, you are probably down to close to the number of players on a soccer squad.  

There more extreme examples than this in Concacaf other than St kitts.  

I am glad that those four players werent available for canada. Because its a wakeup call to the others who were there. It says to them,  you guys arent good enough to get by on your talent alone.  

 

 

Edited by Free kick
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 No chemistry

From the outset, it was apparent that Canada lacked on-field chemistry.

Considering there weren’t any pre-tournament camps, it’s no surprise that this squad struggled to develop an understanding with one another.

 

No central presence

The biggest on-field issue for Canada was the centre of the pitch.

 

Lack of chance creation

A byproduct of the scarcity of buildup through the middle was an absence of chance creation.

 

The Michael Baldisimo Show

Even though Canada exited early, there are a few players worth monitoring over the next couple of years.

He completed 155 of his 176 passes (88 per cent) in the tournament and was one of the few players who coped with the opposition’s pressing.

The Vancouver Whitecaps midfielder possesses tremendous awareness and anticipation, so he’s able to win possession cleanly and quickly transition the play forward as well.

Baldisimo averaged around eight interceptions and slightly under 10 recoveries per game. Because of his strong work rate, he tends to cover a lot of ground.

 

***Is it lack of talent or tactical deficiencies combined with poor preparation from the CSA?***

We have to give our guys proper preparation and competent tactical management. The CSA have to give them all the tools to succeed and leave no room for luck. Hard to crucifies the players after theses facts.

Edited by Ansem
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4 hours ago, Ansem said:

 No chemistry

From the outset, it was apparent that Canada lacked on-field chemistry.

Considering there weren’t any pre-tournament camps, it’s no surprise that this squad struggled to develop an understanding with one another.

 

 

Another benefit of holding more (or any) pre-tournament camps is identifying the right mix of players. When Baldisimo went out, there was no one to step into his role. With more games under our belt, we should have been able to identify another player or two who could play that position. 

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On 11/11/2018 at 9:33 AM, Shortdutchcanuck said:

It is amazing and embarrassing but St. Kitts for whatever reason has punched above their weight for a long time.  And population just isn't a good soccer performance indicator.

I'm guessing some of the fans of the quality sides who lost to Iceland in recent years went angrily off in search of similar statistics.  And on the other side of the coin China and India have had no soccer success!

One thing you can be sure of is that in St. Kitts the players are extremely familiar with each other and it is pretty simple to figure out who the best young players are.  Definitely countries like Panama and Costa Rica have a big player familiarity advantage over our young players.

I think the biggest thing we can take from this tournament is we can't just show up and qualify.  Players and coaches need more camps and friendlies both for evaluation and gelling as a team.  And as @SpecialK has mentioned this might also make it easier to hold on to or grab dual nationals.

 Probably the CSA either can't or won't do this, so we are essentially spinning our tires until we get either the resources or the will to compete logistically.  As it is games against Panama and Honduras will always be a coin toss.

I agree with @Ansem that CanPL should expand the player pool and make us less dependent on MLS academies.  I think those academies produce talent,  its just that they can only be counted on for a couple players each and not the majority of the roster.  And better scouting of players in European academies is a must going forward although that is no easy task.

I agree with most of the criticism of Oliveira and the CSA in this tournament.  I don't agree with discounting any of the players here going forward.  They all deserve criticism but they were not put in a position to succeed.  The cream of the crop will usually show some flashes: Baldisimo, Choiniere, Bair, Reid, Bayiha, Okello.  The other young guys still have a lot of developing to go and when not properly prepared and put in bad situations their deficiencies show.  Truly sad thing is this was a great player development opportunity and it was wasted.  Not because of the big 4 not being here, or even because of not qualifying, but because we did not place our young players in an adequately prepared or professional environment.

 

The English, French and Dutch Caribbean countries get a boost from European born descendants. St Kitts has a population of 55,000 on the island but there are 50,000 more (guessing) in the UK that are eligible. Still not the makings of a super power but gives them an extra boost.

 

 

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We've had pre-tournament camps in the past and they haven't improved results. The bigger issue is really just that our development pathway sucks at the moment because not only do we not have many professional academies, but we have no academy system where all of our top domestic U20 players can compete and be compared against one another. Even the US has that.

Also, I would point out that if red cards had been handed out more fairly at the start of the Panama game, we looked like we might have won. And I think the St. Kitts result probably had a lot to do with the fact we were already eliminated, not to mention us missing Baldisimo. So while I don't like to pin results on refereeing, I think those two calls early on against Panama likely had more infuence on our finish in the tournament than anything else.

And it's not like this is reflective of the new generation of players, the fact that four of our best U20 players are already part of the senior team is only a good thing, and ultimately we still learned a lot about the rest of the U20 cohort.

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16 hours ago, SirBobsaget said:

 

The English, French and Dutch Caribbean countries get a boost from European born descendants. St Kitts has a population of 55,000 on the island but there are 50,000 more (guessing) in the UK that are eligible. Still not the makings of a super power but gives them an extra boost.

 

 

If you combine your estimated SKN diaspora with the local population, you get a total roughly 1/3rd of Iceland, who have overachieved in recent years. 

And if Iceland can qualify for the WC and Euros, I think SKN can at least be a thorn in the sides of countries like Canada.

Population is an overrated factor.

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