CONCACAF U-20 Championship (November 2018)

[aloyol]

I think there's a bit of an overeaction to not qualifying to the U20 WC.

First, let's remember we qualified for this tournament 4 out of 5 times between 1997 and 2005 (making it out of the group stage in 1997 and 2003) and it never translated with success to the MNT (we haven't qualified for the Hex with that generation of players). So, I'm not sure qualification is equal with success at the MNT.

Second, at the moment, in regard for player development and the MNT future, we know David, Davies, Millar and Tabla weren't there but we  know they will be a big part of the MNT future which is positive in term of players development. I also saw some MNT prospects in that U20 team.

Third, I'm not sure I buy the "same shit, different tournament" stuff. With the current format, it was always coming down to one game against Panama while in the past we were put in groups where we had some sort of second chance in case we were losing one game (the 2015 format being the best in that regard even if we didn't go through, at least we had more than one game to prove ourself). I'm not sure I can read much (apart from that stupid RC) in an 2-1 loss against Panama, a pretty good opponent in CONCACAF at all level. specially when we played much of the game with 10 men.

While this result is frustrating as a fan, let's not get carried away.

 

 

[deschamp86]

5 minutes ago, dyslexic nam said:

I think someone mentioned something like this a while back, but just for a bit of context:

France won the U20 WC in 2013.  Their squad included Pogba, who was capped in the senior side in March of 2013 and then played in the U20 tournament later that year. 

Brazil won in 2011.  Their squad featured Coutinho, who had his first senior cap in October of 2010, and then played in the youth tournament in 2011. 

Argentine won in 2007.  Aguero was part of their team.  His first senior cap was in Sept 2006, and he then played in the U20 tourney a year later.

These are top teams, playing world class players (who were already capped with their senior sides) in the U20 tournament. 

Serious questions:

1. Did these players take part in the qualifying for the U20 World Cup Tournaments?

2. Were these players starting players for their Senior national teams at the time?

3. Was there official senior matches happening in close proximity to these tournaments?

[Kadenge]

12 hours ago, Gian-Luca said:

I feel better about this game from a TFC fan perspective than a CMNT fan - I thought Okello, Dunn and Peruzza all looked great. Okello really covers a lot of ground and  can't argue with 3 goals and 1 assist from a d-mid. 

 

So where is Okello on TFC's depth chart? Liam Fraser did not get much time despite Bradley's poor season and Vanney is going to play Bradley until he drops next year. Okello needs another 2 years of development . He is at that stage where he needs his growth spurt to settle down and the coordination then clicks in. I agree he has massive potential but not sure he will max out playing with TFC 2. 

[dyslexic nam]

15 minutes ago, deschamp86 said:

Serious questions:

1. Did these players take part in the qualifying for the U20 World Cup Tournaments?

2. Were these players starting players for their Senior national teams at the time?

3. Was there official senior matches happening in close proximity to these tournaments?

 

Serious answer - that would take far more effort to answer fully than I am willing to invest.  But a quick glance at Pogba's wiki page suggests he was a full senior member at the time of the U20s since he was taking part in WCQ before the U20 tourney.  Aguero also played in 2007 WCQ with Argentina.  Coutinho wasn't part of 2014 WCQ so was probably more fringe to the senior side. 

I am just pointing out that other top teams have taken top players with senior caps to the U20's and been successful.  This would have been my preferred strategy.

[jordan]

Just now, Kadenge said:

So where is Okello on TFC's depth chart? Liam Fraser did not get much time despite Bradley's poor season and Vanney is going to play Bradley until he drops next year. Okello needs another 2 years of development . He is at that stage where he needs his growth spurt to settle down and the coordination then clicks in. I agree he has massive potential but not sure he will max out playing with TFC 2. 

I want to see Okello go overseas on loan for a year, I think getting pumped in USL is not great for development. He has had training stints in Germany that have created interest in him, his old coach is at Cercle Brugge but I don't no what TFC's relationship is with him anymore. 

[Kent]

3 hours ago, El Hombre said:

You're absolutely right.  Why did the CSA convince Liverpool to refuse to release Millar?  Makes no sense!

Yes, we have recently found out that Liverpool refused to relase Millar, but only by reading this forum that happens to have someone close to Millar posting details that are not publicly known. Maybe the whole discussion on Davies, David, Millar, Tabla is moot, but it's impossible for us to know. Can anyone think of a reasonable reason why the CSA never released their 35 player roster to us? This would have been so simple. Somethign like "Here's our 35 man roster. Davies, David, Millar, and Tabla are on the extended roster, but their clubs are refusing to release them outside of the international window. We do have a chance to add them during the window if we still have a chance at qualifying."

Done. Argument over.

[Kent]

1 hour ago, red card said:

Not qualifying all these years is embarrassing for Canada especially since as someone put it succinctly "same shit, different tournament". 

But from a global perspective, u20 World Cup isn't a big deal. Teams often don't release players especially if they're starters. Winning or being in the final does not mean the senior team will also do well. Matches are played in half empty stadiums ex home team. Media coverage is overshadowed by club football. Possible time zone difference means less people watching than Gold Cup. It's going to end in tears anyway as Canada isn't getting out of the group stage.

It can be of benefit to individual players to get some exposure. But historically, Canadian players haven't grasped onto the opportunities given to them ex players like Hutchinson and Hume.

I think the benefit would be more than exposure. People complain about a lack of friendlies at both the senior and youth levels. Surely there can be some benefit to playing in the U20 World Cup. It's got to help players grow, even guys like dyslexic nam mentioned (Pogba, Coutinho, Aguero).

[aloyol]

9 minutes ago, Kent said:

Yes, we have recently found out that Liverpool refused to relase Millar, but only by reading this forum that happens to have someone close to Millar posting details that are not publicly known. Maybe the whole discussion on Davies, David, Millar, Tabla is moot, but it's impossible for us to know. Can anyone think of a reasonable reason why the CSA never released their 35 player roster to us? This would have been so simple. Somethign like "Here's our 35 man roster. Davies, David, Millar, and Tabla are on the extended roster, but their clubs are refusing to release them outside of the international window. We do have a chance to add them during the window if we still have a chance at qualifying."

Done. Argument over.

Since it does involve sending players back home (if you are adding new players), maybe you want to announce it only if you have to do it.

I'm not sure it's a good idea to announce to your players that you'll send some of them home if they get to the next round. Maybe the coaching staff wanted to reward the players who led the team to the next round and would add a player only in the case of injuries/suspension?

Edited November 7, 2018 by aloyol

[Kent]

7 minutes ago, aloyol said:

Since it does involve sending players back home (if you are adding new players), maybe you want to announce it only if you have to do it.

I'm not sure it's a good idea to announce to your players that you'll send some of them home if they get to the next round. Maybe the coaching staff wanted to reward the players who led the team to the next round and would add a player only in the case of injuries/suspension?

That's a fair point. If that's the logic behind not releasing the 35 man roster I would speculate that it would mean these guys are on the 35 man roster, but they don't intend to call them up unless there are injured players to replace. The only other scenarios I can see are:

1. The guys are on the roster with the intention of replacing healthy bodies. I would think it's probably better for players to know they are playing for their spot rather than booting them out later on without any warning.

or

2. The guys aren't on the roster at all. So no need for paranoia from the players that ARE on the roster.

[Kadenge]

1 hour ago, aloyol said:

I think there's a bit of an overeaction to not qualifying to the U20 WC.

First, let's remember we qualified for this tournament 4 out of 5 times between 1997 and 2005 (making it out of the group stage in 1997 and 2003) and it never translated with success to the MNT (we haven't qualified for the Hex with that generation of players). So, I'm not sure qualification is equal with success at the MNT.

Second, at the moment, in regard for player development and the MNT future, we know David, Davies, Millar and Tabla weren't there but we  know they will be a big part of the MNT future which is positive in term of players development. I also saw some MNT prospects in that U20 team.

Third, I'm not sure I buy the "same shit, different tournament" stuff. With the current format, it was always coming down to one game against Panama while in the past we were put in groups where we had some sort of second chance in case we were losing one game (the 2015 format being the best in that regard even if we didn't go through, at least we had more than one game to prove ourself). I'm not sure I can read much (apart from that stupid RC) in an 2-1 loss against Panama, a pretty good opponent in CONCACAF at all level. specially when we played much of the game with 10 men.

While this result is frustrating as a fan, let's not get carried away.

 

 

Unfortunately it's not an overeaction when it's endemic. The issue is not that they lost to Panama playing with 10 but a substantial period with lack of progress. The baseline quality level of youth players should be steadily improving with MLS and all the private academies out there  like Sigma etc. If we want to see success at the senior level we have to continually churn out top prospects at the youth level as we all know that there is a big jump to the pro level and many will not make it.

[Obinna]

36 minutes ago, Kadenge said:

Unfortunately it's not an overeaction when it's endemic. The issue is not that they lost to Panama playing with 10 but a substantial period with lack of progress. The baseline quality level of youth players should be steadily improving with MLS and all the private academies out there  like Sigma etc. If we want to see success at the senior level we have to continually churn out top prospects at the youth level as we all know that there is a big jump to the pro level and many will not make it.

Davies, Tabla, David and Millar.

We are already doing this.

[Obinna]

I think people are confusing things.

We struggle qualify for the U20 WC and now some are suggesting we are struggling to produce players from MLS or Canadian academies?

That is just silly.

We are producing players just fine, but we are not producing results. 

[Kadenge]

2 minutes ago, Obinna said:

Davies, Tabla, David and Millar.

We are already doing this.

And we need to continue doing this.....the 4 above still have to earn a starting job with their clubs...Will they make it ? Hopefully. Ofcourse Davies has already done that in MLS but we need many more to feed the pipeline.

[Kadenge]

3 minutes ago, Obinna said:

I think people are confusing things.

We struggle qualify for the U20 WC and now some are suggesting we are struggling to produce players from MLS or Canadian academies?

That is just silly.

We are producing players just fine, but we are not producing results. 

So if we are producing players why are we not getting the results?

[Fullback]

2 minutes ago, Kadenge said:

So if we are producing players why are we not getting the results?

Because a one-off tournament with no room for error isn’t the only way to judge if we are producing players

[Fullback]

2 hours ago, deschamp86 said:

Serious questions:

1. Did these players take part in the qualifying for the U20 World Cup Tournaments?

2. Were these players starting players for their Senior national teams at the time?

3. Was there official senior matches happening in close proximity to these tournaments?

As I was the guy that went through it and did it my point was actually the opposite of his. The answers are no, no, and no

[aloyol]

8 minutes ago, Kadenge said:

So if we are producing players why are we not getting the results?

What @Fullback said and you might also want to take into consideration the preparation we get before this tournament (which is very little). It's one thing to produce talent but it's another things to have your talented players playing together. Also, it seems our opponents had more recent oppportunities to play together (all central american teams were involved in a tournament in August I think). That might be another factor.

[Obinna]

35 minutes ago, Kadenge said:

So if we are producing players why are we not getting the results?

That is precisely what we should be discussing. 

I honestly think we (still) have to work on our psychology. That holds true for the senior team as well.

That's also why I am quite high on Herdman right now, after initially being very vocal in my displeasure with his appointment.

The talent has always given us a chance in this region. A lack of talent is not holding us back. We are perennial underachievers in CONCACAF for a reason.

It's a cultural change that is required. 

The good news is that it's now happening, with a cumulation toward 2026. Hosting the world cup gives us a tangible goal (for lack of a better word), which is a lot easier to anchor motivation to than your typical world cup cycle. What I mean is that cycles come and go, but hosting is once in a lifetime and striving for that is different.

I remain hopeful about the future of this team.

But will there be stumbles along the way? Yes.

 

Edited November 7, 2018 by Obinna

[Club Linesman]

2 hours ago, dyslexic nam said:

 

Serious answer - that would take far more effort to answer fully than I am willing to invest.  But a quick glance at Pogba's wiki page suggests he was a full senior member at the time of the U20s since he was taking part in WCQ before the U20 tourney.  Aguero also played in 2007 WCQ with Argentina.  Coutinho wasn't part of 2014 WCQ so was probably more fringe to the senior side. 

I am just pointing out that other top teams have taken top players with senior caps to the U20's and been successful.  This would have been my preferred strategy.

Sure but what do France Argentina and Brazil know about producing top football players??

[Gian-Luca]

3 hours ago, jordan said:

I want to see Okello go overseas on loan for a year, I think getting pumped in USL is not great for development. He has had training stints in Germany that have created interest in him, his old coach is at Cercle Brugge but I don't no what TFC's relationship is with him anymore. 

He is still quite young and we don’t know if TFC 2 will get pumped in the new USL lower division- but I can see him being one of the players they said they wanted to loan out. 

Although I would not rule out a 1st team signing either, even if not until the Euro season is over next spring. One of his strengths (covering a ton of ground in a hurry with those long gallopimg legs) is one of the areas that the guys ahead of him (including Fraser) don’t have as a particular strength. 

[Bison44]

1 hour ago, Kadenge said:

So if we are producing players why are we not getting the results?

Not having our best players is part.  Blame the CSA, blame the clubs for not releasing them whatever, having some of the best prospects to come down the pipeline in the last decade would have helped beat panama.  Pretournie camps, coaching (why wasnt Biello coaching?), lacking a winning culture,  all the usual complaints that all countries have when they lose are part of it too.  Its not the end of the world, but with the increasing talent (yes the youngsters across the board are getting better, stop slagging the academies),  but it would have broken a bad string of results and sent a message that canada is going in the right direction and we arent going to be swimming with the minnows for much longer.  But we have to be realistic, when none of the top kids were going to play, did we really think we were good enough to go in, run the table, win the group and advance??  We are not Mexico/US and can send diminished squads and still win.  

[red card]

3 hours ago, aloyol said:

I think there's a bit of an overeaction to not qualifying to the U20 WC.

First, let's remember we qualified for this tournament 4 out of 5 times between 1997 and 2005 (making it out of the group stage in 1997 and 2003) and it never translated with success to the MNT (we haven't qualified for the Hex with that generation of players). So, I'm not sure qualification is equal with success at the MNT.

Second, at the moment, in regard for player development and the MNT future, we know David, Davies, Millar and Tabla weren't there but we  know they will be a big part of the MNT future which is positive in term of players development. I also saw some MNT prospects in that U20 team.

Third, I'm not sure I buy the "same shit, different tournament" stuff. With the current format, it was always coming down to one game against Panama while in the past we were put in groups where we had some sort of second chance in case we were losing one game (the 2015 format being the best in that regard even if we didn't go through, at least we had more than one game to prove ourself). I'm not sure I can read much (apart from that stupid RC) in an 2-1 loss against Panama, a pretty good opponent in CONCACAF at all level. specially when we played much of the game with 10 men.

While this result is frustrating as a fan, let's not get carried away.

 

 

Even under previous formats, it largely came down to one match to get out of the group.

"Same shit" is in reference to one player getting red carded - sometimes valid but sometimes due to the over reaction. 

But agree with the rest. Looking at past winners of u20, unless you have a golden generation, u20 results don't translate over to the senior team. Best case scenario is that you get a bit more seasoning for the players and hopefully a couple become significant senior team contributors. Individually, it is a major disappointment as it likely the pinnacle of their career for most of the players on the team.

[El Diego]

4 hours ago, aloyol said:

I think there's a bit of an overeaction to not qualifying to the U20 WC.

First, let's remember we qualified for this tournament 4 out of 5 times between 1997 and 2005 (making it out of the group stage in 1997 and 2003) and it never translated with success to the MNT (we haven't qualified for the Hex with that generation of players). So, I'm not sure qualification is equal with success at the MNT.

Second, at the moment, in regard for player development and the MNT future, we know David, Davies, Millar and Tabla weren't there but we  know they will be a big part of the MNT future which is positive in term of players development. I also saw some MNT prospects in that U20 team.

Third, I'm not sure I buy the "same shit, different tournament" stuff. With the current format, it was always coming down to one game against Panama while in the past we were put in groups where we had some sort of second chance in case we were losing one game (the 2015 format being the best in that regard even if we didn't go through, at least we had more than one game to prove ourself). I'm not sure I can read much (apart from that stupid RC) in an 2-1 loss against Panama, a pretty good opponent in CONCACAF at all level. specially when we played much of the game with 10 men.

While this result is frustrating as a fan, let's not get carried away.

I had written up a post, went back and read yours, and realized you said everything I wanted to say. Well put.

[aloyol]

3 minutes ago, red card said:

Even under previous formats, it largely came down to one match to get out of the group.

 

The group stage in the past was much more competitive than this. Look at our 2015 group (Mexico, Honduras, Canada, Cuba, El Salvador and Haiti).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2015_CONCACAF_U-20_Championship

You could lose one game and still have a chance to get through the next round. If we didn't move out of our group in 2015, it wasn't because of one match, it was because of our overall performance in the group stage.

This year, we'll probably have a 4 wins and 1 loss record and still not advance. This is what I meant by only one match count.

[1996]

When your a country that on the men’s side has not done much is so many years every little success is good success every failure is just reinforces to the casual fans , not us hardcore fans that will follow Canadian soccer win or lose, that oh ya they did not qualify for another U20 because it’s Canadian men’s soccer and they are just shit no big deal. How about if we had qualified and a few of these players had a name of a CPL team next to what club team they played for? I’m sure the CPL and the CPL team the player played for could sell that to their fans , a win win for the league and team. Moreover, I really think this U20 team if they had qualified might have made a bit of a run with guys like David, Davies , Tabla and Millar can you imagine the publicity they could have brought to the Canadian men’s program if they went on a bit of a run or a guy like Davies scores some wonder goals at the U20 World Cup? Another lost opportunity but it’s Canadian men’s soccer so why are we surprised same shit different tournament.