Best XI

[dyslexic nam]

7 minutes ago, kacbru said:

There's some real dissonance on this board.  Elsewhere, people are talking about winning the Gold Cup, qualifying for 2022, etc. and here we are talking about how well players showed against Dominica, worrying about goal differential and how St. Kitts and Nevis should be a good test.

I'm guilty of it too, but both of these things can not be true!

I think winning the Gold Cup in 2019 is probably a pretty aspiration "stretch goal" for most people on here.  Not sure many people are planning on it.

As for 2022, qualifying will take place in 2-3 years time.  There is no reason why some of our guys won't make significant progress between now and then.  Davies, Tabla, David, Cav, Larin, Kayes, James, Cornelius, Henry, ZBG, Piette, etc. - they should all be on the upswing during that period.  And while Hutch will likely step down by then, lots of our current core guys will still be high quality veteran players - like Oso, Borjan, Arfield and Hoilett.  

Just because we aren't posting double digits against CONCACAF minnows in NL doesn't mean that 2022 is out of reach.  It may be optimistic, but I think we can be much stronger in that kind of timeframe

[Obinna]

3 minutes ago, Keegan said:

In this game, yes those two can be true!  Any half decent squad in this region will be decent at home.  St Kitts is a half decent squad, certainly better than Belize imo who we struggled against on the road in 2015 and would have lost against if not for  a late Borjan stop. The USA needed injury time to beat Antigua away in 2014 qualifying.  

This is a trip up match where, let’s face it, many of these young guys have never played a concacaf away match.  Look at St Kitts squad, they can put out an XI of mostly full time pros, we are coming off facing two teams with a combined total of 2 full time professionals, Dominica had a 44 year old on their backline who played in the csl in 1995.  

St Kitts has a starting championship midfielder, Atiba Harris and a couple other players who looked decent from what I saw.  Should we expect to beat them?  Of course, but this won’t be a cake walk. 

 

Fully agree. We can't look past St. Kitts.

[LeoH037]

5 hours ago, Ansem said:

Everyone forgetting about Godinho ?

And Mark Anthony Kaye

[devioustrevor]

1 hour ago, Obinna said:

Fully agree. We can't look past St. Kitts.

Agreed.  But I suspect many of our young guys will be in Florida and it will be a more experience team going to Bassterre.

[Obinna]

1 hour ago, devioustrevor said:

Agreed.  But I suspect many of our young guys will be in Florida and it will be a more experience team going to Bassterre.

We'll see. We may see a balance, with some left with the senior team and some sent on youth duty. I won't guess at who may or may not play U-20, but just wanted to say that may be how we go about it. 

[SpecialK]

6 hours ago, Obinna said:

We'll see. We may see a balance, with some left with the senior team and some sent on youth duty. I won't guess at who may or may not play U-20, but just wanted to say that may be how we go about it. 

U20  eligible players should not be there vs St.Kitts. We could have our best U20 team ever if all our guys are there. My view battling for a U-20 World Cup spot is more important for Canada, for the players and the program development as a whole and  for their exposure  then kicking the crap out of a  Caribbean minnow. I’m sure the vets can handle St.Kitts  easily 

Edited October 18, 2018 by SpecialK

[Obinna]

4 hours ago, SpecialK said:

U20  eligible players should not be there vs St.Kitts. We could have our best U20 team ever if all our guys are there. My view battling for a U-20 World Cup spot is more important for Canada, for the players and the program development as a whole and  for their exposure  then kicking the crap out of a  Caribbean minnow. I’m sure the vets can handle St.Kitts  easily 

Now that's a hot take! 

Knowing all the focus the CSA is putting on 2026, and by extension, the 2022 cycle, I would assume the success of the senior team is most important.

That's not to say I don't want to see a star-studded U-20 team, because I do agree we could really do something special and qualify if we had our best youth players there.

But I think Herdman's number one priority right now is building chemistry in the senior team and qualifying for the Gold Cup and Nations league A. 

Do we have the quality to beat St. Kitts away without David, Davies, Miller, Tabla, ZGB and Busti? Yes of course, but not calling them is a chance lost to integrate them further and build on the positive momentum from Dominica, plus we'd be losing a lot of talent heading into the biggest game of a qualification we can't afford to slip up in. By the look of St. Kitts' results thus far, I would expect a 2 or 3 goal win, but if we don't convert our chances things could be too close for comfort. I don't think we'll shake things up too much and put all our eggs in either basket.

Qualifying for the U-20 WC is very, very important in order to give up and coming players a platform to develop further, so expect to see some, but not all, drop down to help out.

Edited October 18, 2018 by Obinna

[Obinna]

What is the cut off for U-20? 98 or 99?

[SpecialK]

6 minutes ago, Obinna said:

What is the cut off for U-20? 98 or 99?

99

[Keegan]

I think a high stakes qualifier (or two) would be great for the youngsters.  None of them have really played one before besides maybe Tabla in 2015.  Imagine our boys facing off against Mexico or the USA at this level, that would be special and a great experience.

[Obinna]

3 minutes ago, Keegan said:

I think a high stakes qualifier (or two) would be great for the youngsters.  None of them have really played one before besides maybe Tabla in 2015.  Imagine our boys facing off against Mexico or the USA at this level, that would be special and a great experience.

For sure.

Perhaps we send Busti, Davies, Millar and Tabla down and challenge them to lead the team to qualification, while leaving David with the senior team. He has 3 goals in two games, so if we are leaving one with the senior team, he'd be the justifiable one, who's also more under the radar in a sense, playing at Gent and not a mega club. The others can probably get us qualified without David and may have that chip on their shoulder with something to prove, being attached to the biggest clubs in the world without actually playing for the first teams. Just speculation on my part.

[Obinna]

Who else not capped in the senior side do we think will be important for this group?

 

[Keegan]

I feel like we have enough depth to send them all and we should because we need to evaluate other players with no matches.. 

I feel Herdman will be too scared though.  This is his first “real” match so to speak and he won’t want to slip up. 

Id replace the 5 down (if available) and replace them with Crepeau, Edwards, Telfer, Akindele and Petrasso. 

Let’s face it, those guys deserve a look too.  Just last year a few of them were getting starts for Canada and they’re still young. 

[Obinna]

11 minutes ago, Keegan said:

I feel like we have enough depth to send them all and we should because we need to evaluate other players with no matches.. 

I feel Herdman will be too scared though.  This is his first “real” match so to speak and he won’t want to slip up. 

Id replace the 5 down (if available) and replace them with Crepeau, Edwards, Telfer, Akindele and Petrasso. 

Let’s face it, those guys deserve a look too.  Just last year a few of them were getting starts for Canada and they’re still young. 

I would say this is the crux of the matter.

I wouldn't blame him really. We talk about how the vets should handle St. Kitts easily, but you could make the argument that we should easily qualify for U-20 without David.

Or put another way, if Alphonso and co. can't qualify without David, perhaps we have no business qualifying? Would missing just David really be a make or break? I would hope not.

As for senior replacements, I would call Adekugbe or De Jong for Davies, Edwards for Tabla, Borjan for Busti and one of Cordova or Godinho for Millar.

Edited October 18, 2018 by Obinna

[C2SKI]

I’d let Millar lead the line with the U20s. He’s being played out of position with the senior squad anyways, due to the logjam of talent up front. Let’s see what he can do in his natural position. I would keep David and Davies up with the senior side. On current form I think they’re both in our strongest 18 right now.

Edited October 18, 2018 by C2SKI

[Kent]

4 hours ago, Obinna said:

Or put another way, if Alphonso and co. can't qualify without David, perhaps we have no business qualifying? Would missing just David really be a make or break? I would hope not.

If we can't qualify while handicapping ourselves then we don't have any business qualifying? Are we worried about looking like we care too much or something?

Personally, as much as I am enjoying Nations League, I do think the U20 World Cup is higher stakes, and the more difficult task to qualify than beating St. Kitts. I want our U-20 team to be it's strongest possible. He'd get these players 5 to 8 games with the U20's rather than 1 game with the senior team. U-20 all the way for me. Let's get ourselves qualified and put Canada on the map.

Edited October 18, 2018 by Kent
oops, I put without when I meant while.

[Obinna]

6 hours ago, Kent said:

If we can't qualify while handicapping ourselves then we don't have any business qualifying? Are we worried about looking like we care too much or something?

Personally, as much as I am enjoying Nations League, I do think the U20 World Cup is higher stakes, and the more difficult task to qualify than beating St. Kitts. I want our U-20 team to be it's strongest possible. He'd get these players 5 to 8 games with the U20's rather than 1 game with the senior team. U-20 all the way for me. Let's get ourselves qualified and put Canada on the map.

Yes and no.

Yes in that on paper it should be harder to qualify for U20 than Nations A

No in that the ramifications for failing to qualify for Nations A are much greater. 

Think about it, we are currently enjoying a young up and coming, dare I say it, golden generation. This is without qualifying for the U20 WC in ages. Yet we still produced Alphonso, Ballou, David, etc.

Do I want to qualify? Yes. Will it be a disaster if we don't? Not really, just the status quo. We will still produce good players. Life goes on.

Will it be a disaster if we fail to qualify for Nations A? It would be a disaster of epic preportions.

We can afford to not qualify for the U20 WC, but we cannot afford, under any circumstances, to fail to qualify for Nations A. That would set us back and make the challenge for WC 2022 that much harder.

At the end of the day, the senior program will always be most important, whether we like it or not. The whole point of a successful youth program is to feed the senior team, so why hurt the senior team today, in order to help the youth team today - just so that the youth team can help the senior team in the future (maybe)? That's how I choose to look it.

Edited October 19, 2018 by Obinna

[Obinna]

Another thing which must be said is that traditionally, top players (especially those in Europe) are not released for U20 qualifiers. I don't expect Timothy Weah and Tyler Adams (unless RB are knocked out) to participate. At least not all of the games. Is Josh Sargent, who is on the cusp of the Werder Bremen first team, going to leave for qualifiers? Maybe, maybe not.

The point is that we wouldn't be the only team not calling every, single top eligible player. Obviously we want as many as possible, but there are always other priorities to juggle, whether it be at club level or with the senior NT. That's just the reality.

[Obinna]

4 hours ago, C2SKI said:

I’d let Millar lead the line with the U20s. He’s being played out of position with the senior squad anyways, due to the logjam of talent up front. Let’s see what he can do in his natural position. I would keep David and Davies up with the senior side. On current form I think they’re both in our strongest 18 right now.

This is exactly what I was thinking.

I would play a front 3 of:

Davies------Millar------Tabla

Even if we brought David, where would he fit? One of those 4 would have to play out of position (likely) or drop to the U20 bench (unlikely, but you see my point here).

[Blackjack15]

20 minutes ago, Obinna said:

Do I want to qualify? Yes. Will it be a disaster if we don't? Not really, just the status quo.

Will it be a disaster if we fail to qualify for Nations A? It would be a disaster of epic preportions.

We can afford to not qualify for the U20 WC, but we cannot afford, under any circumstances, to fail to qualify for Nations A. That would set us behind and make the challenge for WC 2022 that much harder.

How about we qualify to both?

 We have a solid mixture of youth and  veterans 

The experience will get the job done vs St Kitts and Nevis away 

These Guys (Busti, Davies, Tabla, Millar and David) only get one chance of playing at an U20 World Cup and we shouldn’t waste that opportunity just because they’re really good and already at senior level

Its about finding the right balance, not going one sided on both ends 

Edited October 18, 2018 by Thomas

[Obinna]

7 minutes ago, Blackjack15 said:

How about we qualify to both?

 We have a solid mixture of youth and  veterans 

The experience will get the job done vs St Kitts and Nevis away 

These Guys (Busti, Davies, Tabla, Millar and David) only get one chance of playing at an U20 World Cup and we shouldn’t waste that opportunity just because they’re really good and already at senior level

Its about finding the right balance, not going one sided on both ends 

Totally agree. It is about finding that balance, as I mentioned earlier. I think leaving David with the seniors and sending the rest down would be the right balance, but that's just my opinion. It'll be interesting to see how we handle it. John has some tough decisions. We are going to want to win both though, that's for sure.

[Kent]

5 hours ago, Obinna said:

Will it be a disaster if we fail to qualify for Nations A? It would be a disaster of epic preportions.

We can afford to not qualify for the U20 WC, but we cannot afford, under any circumstances, to fail to qualify for Nations A. That would set us back and make the challenge for WC 2022 that much harder.

Real question. Do you think the first edition of the Nations League is more important than the second edition? Would it be an equally big disaster if we finish third/last in the group in 2019 as if we hadn’t qualified for League A in the first place?

Since you mention 2022 qualifying being impacted I assume you are arguing that because you get to play games against better competition, in Central America, etc, so it prepares you better. If we assume Nations League will happen every 4 years (that’s my best guess, but I’m not sure what the prevailing wisdom is on that) then presumably the next (2023) edition will be prep for the World Cup at home.

If we somehow end up in League B in 2019, I think regardless of the draw we would have a great shot at promotion. If we end up in League A we could very well be fighting to stay up. If we draw say Mexico and Honduras, it would be tough to stay up.

[Keegan]

16 minutes ago, Kent said:

If we somehow end up in League B in 2019, I think regardless of the draw we would have a great shot at promotion. If we end up in League A we could very well be fighting to stay up. If we draw say Mexico and Honduras, it would be tough to stay up.

Well, I would hope so.. we’re talking concacaf numbers 13 and below.  We should always be in League A and the top 12 of concacaf, there’s no ifs, ands or buts about it. If we get relegated that should be enough for a sacking.. we shouldn’t be in a league with St Kitts and Montserrat. 

If were in a group with Honduras and Mexico?  Bye, bye Honduras ?.

Edited October 19, 2018 by Keegan

[Obinna]

4 hours ago, Kent said:

Real question. Do you think the first edition of the Nations League is more important than the second edition? Would it be an equally big disaster if we finish third/last in the group in 2019 as if we hadn’t qualified for League A in the first place?

Since you mention 2022 qualifying being impacted I assume you are arguing that because you get to play games against better competition, in Central America, etc, so it prepares you better. If we assume Nations League will happen every 4 years (that’s my best guess, but I’m not sure what the prevailing wisdom is on that) then presumably the next (2023) edition will be prep for the World Cup at home.

If we somehow end up in League B in 2019, I think regardless of the draw we would have a great shot at promotion. If we end up in League A we could very well be fighting to stay up. If we draw say Mexico and Honduras, it would be tough to stay up.

I think qualifying for A in this edition and getting relegated to B would be equally disastrous as starting in B and working our way to A. It's like asking which turd stinks the least...

The way I see it is that we must play in A. We need to learn how to play and beat Panama, Honduras, Costa Rica, USA and Mexico, home and away. This will be critical to giving the team confidence heading into WCQ for 2022. 

I don't fancy our chances if we start out in B for the 2019/2020 tournament. Assuming we promote right away, we'd be starting WCQ without having learnt the lessons. We'd have to learn on the fly essentially, as we'd be using A (2021/2022) as a training for what really matters, WCQ. Even with all the talent we have I feel uneasy about that scenario.

But if we qualify for A, as we should, for 2019/2020, and then somehow manage to get relegated, that would also not be good for the morale of the team, but on the bright side our depth wouldn't be as stretched trying to manage WCQ and Nations A at the same time.

Best scenario: qualify for A and stay there for as long as possible. 

Edited October 19, 2018 by Obinna

[villus]

I'm for getting the max strength in the U-20 squad over the Nations League, the vets should be able to get the job done and the U-20 tournament is a shitload of games in a short period of time so having a deep squad will be hugely beneficial since even though some of the teams are minnows you can't play players every other day.  Building a good team and qualifying for the world cup will get these guys playing and building together and getting to play top end competition, that development can really translate down the road and building cohesion through going through adversity together is really valuable.